Rick Warren - a Kuyper-Calvinist?

panta dokimazete · #1 (**permalink**) 06-21-2008, 06:35 AM

I have seen this quoted several times - what do ya'll make of this?

toddpedlar · #2 (**permalink**) 06-21-2008, 07:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by panta dokimazete

I have seen this quoted several times - what do ya'll make of this?

You may have to expand on this for those of us who've never heard of this. For my part, I can't see (whatever his claims) Warren as any kind of Calvinist, and certainly I think Kuyper would recoil at much of what Warren panders to in culture.

panta dokimazete · #3 (**permalink**) 06-21-2008, 09:48 AM

This is a comment from the thread about the SBC membership resolution on the Founder's blog

Quote:

FROM RICK WARREN

Hi Tom!
I have been personally urging the adoption of a resolution on Membership like your's for over 20 years. I hope it passes. The restoration of the integrity of membership is an absolute foundation to the spiritual health of a congretion.

Saddleback's membership class,our covenant, and the accountability to it are the secrets behind our members willingness to sacrifice to reach people for Christ. Imagine a church that went 15 years without a building, setting up and tearing down a church for 10,000 people (at that time in the 90s) week after week, regardless of weather. The way you bring members in is the level of commitment they will live up to.

Most people have no idea- sero- of what is Saddleback Church is really like. They have bought into all the stupid misinformation that circuluates on the internet, and in books by people who aren't even believers and have never even talked to me.

The fact is, for 28 years, from the first day of our chuch, we have dilligently practiced church discipline, used the historic Baptist practice of Covenants (we have 4, including a membership covenant),have a required membership class, and have graduated over 15,000 members through a six month Systematic Theology Course called "Foudations." I would match any 1,000 members of Saddleback to any 1000 members of any other church in terms of spiritual maturity, godliness, scrptures memorized, serving in ministry, and doing missions around the world.

We take membership extremely seriously at Saddleback Church, and people who don't abide by the covenant are disciplined and removed. We have no such thing as "inactive or non-resident membership" which is a contradiction.

People probably also don't know that during the past 10 years, miost churches were plateaued or declining, we've baptized over 20,000 NEW adult believers, put 28,000 studing the Bible weekly in 3,400 small groups, and sent 7,766 of our members to evangelize and plant churches overseas in 68 countries. There's not another church in America with a more mature membership. It's because we stress covenants!

Never believe second- hand sources about Saddleback. They are ALWAYS wrong.

By the way, I am not a hyper-Calvinist. I am a Kuyper-Calvinist! Abraham Kuyper was right about so much. You can see his influence all through Purpose Driven Life. (smile)

Years ago, you may remember a lecture by Mark C at a SBC Founder's Breakfast that compared the similarities between the "the children of Spurgeon and the children of Warren." I got a kick out of that lecture since my great Grandfather was led to Christ by Spurgeon, went to Spurgeon's College, and then was sent by Spurgeon to America to plant churches. I have Spurgeon's handwritten sermons framed on my office walls- passed down from 4 generations of pastors! Another little known fact is that another part of my spiritual heritage is that my namesake Pilgrim ancestor , Richard Warren, came over on that little boat, the Mayflower to escape religious persecution.

Please forgive any typos in this. I don't usually participate in blogs but I care deeply about this issue, and so I typed this out quickly.

God bless!

Rick Warren
Saddleback Church

calgal · #4 (**permalink**) 06-21-2008, 10:12 AM

Kuyper is turning over in his grave!

Ivan · #5 (**permalink**) 06-21-2008, 10:17 AM

I still wonder if that was really Warren.

panta dokimazete · #6 (**permalink**) 06-21-2008, 10:20 AM

so did Steve Camp - did you see his response? whew!

Barnpreacher · #7 (**permalink**) 06-21-2008, 10:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ivan

I still wonder if that was really Warren.

Exactly! Call me a skeptic, but I wouldn't be putting money on it.

jogri17 · #8 (**permalink**) 06-21-2008, 10:53 AM

I could believe it. That would just mean simply that he has right theoloy and is horrible when it comes to the application in his books and tv interviews.

Hippo · #9 (**permalink**) 06-21-2008, 11:16 AM

And remember that Geisler claims to be a "moderate calvinist".

Pilgrim · #10 (**permalink**) 06-21-2008, 11:18 AM

In an interview with Michael Horton several years ago for Modern Reformation he claimed to be a Calvinist. It used to be online but I don't think it is anymore.

Pilgrim · #11 (**permalink**) 06-21-2008, 11:20 AM

Quote:

Most people have no idea- sero- of what is Saddleback Church is really like. They have bought into all the stupid misinformation that circuluates on the internet, and in books by people who aren't even believers and have never even talked to me.

Is he saying what I think he is--that his critics aren't believers?

Edit: He did note that he typed out the comment quickly, so I think he deserves the benefit of the doubt here.

Pilgrim · #12 (**permalink**) 06-21-2008, 11:22 AM

This is apparently a phrase that Warren has used several times lately. I knew I had seen it before. See here.

BTW a lot of the WSCAL radical two kingdomers are probably happy with the association Warren made since they seem to dump on Kuyper and Kuyperianism every chance they get.

Stephen · #13 (**permalink**) 06-21-2008, 12:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by panta dokimazete

This is a comment from the thread about the SBC membership resolution on the Founder's blog

Quote:

FROM RICK WARREN

Hi Tom!
I have been personally urging the adoption of a resolution on Membership like your's for over 20 years. I hope it passes. The restoration of the integrity of membership is an absolute foundation to the spiritual health of a congretion.

Saddleback's membership class,our covenant, and the accountability to it are the secrets behind our members willingness to sacrifice to reach people for Christ. Imagine a church that went 15 years without a building, setting up and tearing down a church for 10,000 people (at that time in the 90s) week after week, regardless of weather. The way you bring members in is the level of commitment they will live up to.

Most people have no idea- sero- of what is Saddleback Church is really like. They have bought into all the stupid misinformation that circuluates on the internet, and in books by people who aren't even believers and have never even talked to me.

The fact is, for 28 years, from the first day of our chuch, we have dilligently practiced church discipline, used the historic Baptist practice of Covenants (we have 4, including a membership covenant),have a required membership class, and have graduated over 15,000 members through a six month Systematic Theology Course called "Foudations." I would match any 1,000 members of Saddleback to any 1000 members of any other church in terms of spiritual maturity, godliness, scrptures memorized, serving in ministry, and doing missions around the world.

We take membership extremely seriously at Saddleback Church, and people who don't abide by the covenant are disciplined and removed. We have no such thing as "inactive or non-resident membership" which is a contradiction.

People probably also don't know that during the past 10 years, miost churches were plateaued or declining, we've baptized over 20,000 NEW adult believers, put 28,000 studing the Bible weekly in 3,400 small groups, and sent 7,766 of our members to evangelize and plant churches overseas in 68 countries. There's not another church in America with a more mature membership. It's because we stress covenants!

Never believe second- hand sources about Saddleback. They are ALWAYS wrong.

By the way, I am not a hyper-Calvinist. I am a Kuyper-Calvinist! Abraham Kuyper was right about so much. You can see his influence all through Purpose Driven Life. (smile)

Years ago, you may remember a lecture by Mark C at a SBC Founder's Breakfast that compared the similarities between the "the children of Spurgeon and the children of Warren." I got a kick out of that lecture since my great Grandfather was led to Christ by Spurgeon, went to Spurgeon's College, and then was sent by Spurgeon to America to plant churches. I have Spurgeon's handwritten sermons framed on my office walls- passed down from 4 generations of pastors! Another little known fact is that another part of my spiritual heritage is that my namesake Pilgrim ancestor , Richard Warren, came over on that little boat, the Mayflower to escape religious persecution.

Please forgive any typos in this. I don't usually participate in blogs but I care deeply about this issue, and so I typed this out quickly.

God bless!

Rick Warren
Saddleback Church

If Warren is a Kuyper Calvinist I am a neo-Pagan. Yeah, right. He would not know what one was if it bit him on his Arminianian backside. I certainly will not be reading or listening to his Arminianism no matter how he tries to dress it.

Ivan · #14 (**permalink**) 06-21-2008, 12:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stephen

Quote:

Originally Posted by panta dokimazete

This is a comment from the thread about the SBC membership resolution on the Founder's blog

Quote:

FROM RICK WARREN

Hi Tom!
I have been personally urging the adoption of a resolution on Membership like your's for over 20 years. I hope it passes. The restoration of the integrity of membership is an absolute foundation to the spiritual health of a congretion.

Saddleback's membership class,our covenant, and the accountability to it are the secrets behind our members willingness to sacrifice to reach people for Christ. Imagine a church that went 15 years without a building, setting up and tearing down a church for 10,000 people (at that time in the 90s) week after week, regardless of weather. The way you bring members in is the level of commitment they will live up to.

Most people have no idea- sero- of what is Saddleback Church is really like. They have bought into all the stupid misinformation that circuluates on the internet, and in books by people who aren't even believers and have never even talked to me.

The fact is, for 28 years, from the first day of our chuch, we have dilligently practiced church discipline, used the historic Baptist practice of Covenants (we have 4, including a membership covenant),have a required membership class, and have graduated over 15,000 members through a six month Systematic Theology Course called "Foudations." I would match any 1,000 members of Saddleback to any 1000 members of any other church in terms of spiritual maturity, godliness, scrptures memorized, serving in ministry, and doing missions around the world.

We take membership extremely seriously at Saddleback Church, and people who don't abide by the covenant are disciplined and removed. We have no such thing as "inactive or non-resident membership" which is a contradiction.

People probably also don't know that during the past 10 years, miost churches were plateaued or declining, we've baptized over 20,000 NEW adult believers, put 28,000 studing the Bible weekly in 3,400 small groups, and sent 7,766 of our members to evangelize and plant churches overseas in 68 countries. There's not another church in America with a more mature membership. It's because we stress covenants!

Never believe second- hand sources about Saddleback. They are ALWAYS wrong.

By the way, I am not a hyper-Calvinist. I am a Kuyper-Calvinist! Abraham Kuyper was right about so much. You can see his influence all through Purpose Driven Life. (smile)

Years ago, you may remember a lecture by Mark C at a SBC Founder's Breakfast that compared the similarities between the "the children of Spurgeon and the children of Warren." I got a kick out of that lecture since my great Grandfather was led to Christ by Spurgeon, went to Spurgeon's College, and then was sent by Spurgeon to America to plant churches. I have Spurgeon's handwritten sermons framed on my office walls- passed down from 4 generations of pastors! Another little known fact is that another part of my spiritual heritage is that my namesake Pilgrim ancestor , Richard Warren, came over on that little boat, the Mayflower to escape religious persecution.

Please forgive any typos in this. I don't usually participate in blogs but I care deeply about this issue, and so I typed this out quickly.

God bless!

Rick Warren
Saddleback Church

If Warren is a Kuyper Calvinist I am a neo-Pagan. Yeah, right. He would not know what one was if it bit him on his Arminianian backside. I certainly will not be reading or listening to his Arminianism no matter how he tries to dress it.

toddpedlar · #15 (**permalink**) 06-21-2008, 12:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by panta dokimazete

This is a comment from the thread about the SBC membership resolution on the Founder's blog

Whether that comment was actually penned by Warren or not doesn't change the fact that it only takes listening to 10 minutes of his tripe to determine that he's neither anywhere near being either Calvinist or Kuyperian.

toddpedlar · #16 (**permalink**) 06-21-2008, 12:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stephen

If Warren is a Kuyper Calvinist I am a neo-Pagan. Yeah, right. He would not know what one was if it bit him on his Arminianian backside. I certainly will not be reading or listening to his Arminianism no matter how he tries to dress it.

One of the better quips I've read in a long time

Daniel Ritchie · #17 (**permalink**) 06-21-2008, 02:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pilgrim

This is apparently a phrase that Warren has used several times lately. I knew I had seen it before. See here.

BTW a lot of the WSCAL two kingdomers are probably happy with the association Warren made since they seem to dump on Kuyper and Kuyperianism every chance they get.

Yes, I often think to myself that WSC must be so happy that the FV has emerged, so that they can link anyone who believes in societal reformation (who is not a pietist) as being similar to the FV.

danmpem · #18 (**permalink**) 06-21-2008, 03:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jogri17

I could believe it. That would just mean simply that he has right theoloy and is horrible when it comes to the application in his books and tv interviews.

That's the way it is with many of the seeker sensitive and emerging church leaders (and I don't just mean the published ones either; I mean local pastors in various places). They don't want to teach the doctrines of grace for fear of causing confusion and division over something that isn't really THAT important. Some pastors I've asked about this are 5-pointers all the way, they just only want to preach evangelistic messages, and not offend anyone.

panta dokimazete · #19 (**permalink**) 06-21-2008, 03:31 PM

I think perhaps Calvinistic doctrine may be taught in terms of discipleship and probably not explicitly, and not as the "bully pulpit" or as a public platform.

danmpem · #20 (**permalink**) 06-21-2008, 03:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stephen

If Warren is a Kuyper Calvinist I am a neo-Pagan. Yeah, right. He would not know what one was if it bit him on his Arminianian backside. I certainly will not be reading or listening to his Arminianism no matter how he tries to dress it.

I have a very short fuse when it comes to false teachers, but I'm not sold on the fact that Warren is Arminian. I think we tend to associate too much a preacher being a Calvinist with him preaching Calvinism. If he says he's one, then I'm going to give him the benefit of the doubt that he's telling the truth that he knows all these facts about God and how God works. It makes it all the worse that he's not telling t