Okay, so I have your attention (at least I hope I do). I'm a bit bothered at some of the recent threads where individuals are called to repent because they hold to doctrines that are consistent with their confession. I want to put this issue in its own thread and have it dealt with.

First, isn't membership on this board predicated (partly) on subscribing to a confession? Would it be the consensus of PB members that the doctrinal positions held by the approved confessions would be within the sphere of orthodoxy? If not among the membership, how about the owner, mods and administrator? I believe this is a question that warrants an answer. If the PB allows members who are not orthodox in their doctrine, doesn't that under-mind the purpose of this board? We've seen PB leadership react strongly to the FV and NPP. They are to be applauded for that. But shouldn't that consistency be shown in all doctrines that would be deemed unorthodox? I'm open to correction if I am wrong.

Second, is repentance routinely called for outside of the local church? One of the more prolific passages on confrontation and repentance is Matthew 18:15-17:

What is interesting about this passage is that discipline is seen within the confines of the local church. James indicates the same line of reasoning:

The call to repentance is part of church discipline. Botched church discipline has harmed more people than it has helped. The PB is not a local church. It cannot practice church discipline and I question whether a formal call to repentance can be made outside of the local church.

So what constitutes accepted orthodoxy? Does the PB allow members who do not hold to the orthodox faith? Are the approved confessions of the PB within the sphere of orthodoxy? If a person holds to one of these confessions can we say that they are orthodox and stop calling on them to repent?

?

__________________
Bill Brown
Elder
Grace Baptist Church
Anne Arundel County, Maryland

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Hi Bill,

Just curious, what other unorthodox doctrines besides the FV and NPP have you noticed here on the PB that were not addressed or dealt with?

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~~Greg Carpenter~~
Deerfield Beach, FL

"It is a throne of grace that God in Christ is represented to us upon; but yet it is a throne still whereon majesty and glory do reside, and God is always to be considered by us as on a throne." –John Owen

If I understand Bill's point, he's saying that the PB does NOT allow unorthodox doctrines on the board. As such, the call to "repentance" isn't needed. I agree! I find the entire "You need to repent" cry (they are always in the baptism board) to be arrogant, and unnecessary, and I've said so several times.

If the baptists here meet the qualifications to be members they should not have to be subject to this "call of repentance". Unless we are going to say that baptists are not welcome.

Now, if the baptist forum is a place where paedo's try and convert the poor, confused credo's it needs to be labeled as such. B oth sides go into that forum expecting to be respected for "holding to their confession". A call to repentance from either side is not respect in any way shape or form.

I am at a loss (and have been) as to how anyone cannot see or understand that. I guess they need to repent!

__________________
Adam Leavelle
Westminster OPC
Roaring Spring Pa.

http://www.myspace.com/aleavelle
"Speak wisdom to a fool and he'll think you have no sense at all"

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Greg - I believe you misread what I said. I said the the PB has dealt with unorthodox doctrines.

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Bill Brown
Elder
Grace Baptist Church
Anne Arundel County, Maryland

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Bill,

I think you are missing the point. It is much more fun to use works like repent, heresy, etc.

:P

__________________
Grace and Peace in Christ,

Brett Rader
Member
Redeemer Presbyterian(PCA)
Austin, TX

lol

__________________
Adam Leavelle
Westminster OPC
Roaring Spring Pa.

http://www.myspace.com/aleavelle
"Speak wisdom to a fool and he'll think you have no sense at all"

Click to get: Board Rules -- Signature Requirements -- Suggestions?

Bill:

I understand what you are saying. I agree.

But it's part of being a member of a public discussion board like this one. We just have to learn to take it on the cheek.

I can't remember a time on this Board when we didn't have this problem, except may right at the first when we were still feeling each other out. It only took a bit of time before the prejudices came out. That's just part of growing.

A Presuppositionalist can accuse me, a Classicalist, of being sinful in how I approach the Scriptures all day long. Let him go. An EPer can accuse me of being a lawbreaker for singing "Amazing Grace" in church all day long; let him go too. That doesn't make me a sinner. It just shows where they're coming from, that's all. It's their business if they want to be juvenile in their logic and reasoning. What others do ought not to determine what I do. I just know that I can't call them legalists, so I find other ways to address the concerns.

Moderation is a tricky business, because those who moderate are no more nor any less than we are. They can be taken up in things just like anyone else. Do you think that moderators are above the baptism issue? Or the EP issue? They're also struggling with things. And they too miss the same things that we miss. They too often can't see the unfairness, just as we do not.

My wife has an answer for the kids when they say, "That's not fair!" She says that its not about fairness. I wondered about that, until I finally asked her about it. She said that she was only quoting me. This surprised me. Did I say that? But I did, and I knew it. But now I also understood how deeply this had affected her. She understood what I said this way, that fairness is about how we treat each other, but how we treat each other is not about fairness. Fairness is not the goal, it is the means to the goal. Well, that's what I meant, but all I could say at the time was that it was not about fairness; I just couldn't muster the words to explain it at the time. But my wife could.

I think this is something that we have to learn on this Board. Fairness is the means to an end, not merely an end in itself. It is an end in itself, but not by itself. It's about something that we have to be fair about.

__________________
JohnV

John Vandervliet
Ontario, Canada
member of: Canadian Reformed Church
"In coming to understand anything we are rejecting the facts as they are for us in favour of the facts as they are" C.S Lewis, An Experiment in Criticism

I'm sorry Bill. I misread you as saying that, just as the FV and NPP has been addressed, so should all unorthodox doctrines, ones that have not been addressed here...that your call to consistency in all areas was due to a lack of consistency in a few. My apologies.

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~~Greg Carpenter~~
Deerfield Beach, FL

"It is a throne of grace that God in Christ is represented to us upon; but yet it is a throne still whereon majesty and glory do reside, and God is always to be considered by us as on a throne." –John Owen

Bill,

I agree with you for what it is worth, (sides and issues aside) because more often than not the ‘psychology’ behind it is not biblical at all, that is the true way in which a person uses it. First, repent is far too often used as a cheap out and often a hidden ad hominem, and I am not thinking of any particular cases here just in general. Second, “repent” is more often than not a legal cry rather than to the mercy of God cry. God clearly grants and gives repentance by the power of His word, it is not “engendered” up from within, like something akin to a pagan practicing witch craft in attempting to move a cup across the table, lot’s of sweat and inner consternation but in the end utterly nothing (faith is often falsely viewed this way). Repentance is too a gift just as faith is and this gift comes from God’s Word alone, not the urgings of other men nor engendered from within. Thus, often such calls become a “hidden” repent unto ‘my law over your law’ as a way to heaven. Third, when “called for” in debate it’s most often a misuse of “repentance”. For a man must be laid broken by God’s Word alone, like the prodigal AFTER his father already forgives him and gives him his cloak, ring and full restoration in spite of his great sin. This and this alone is true sorrow over sin in true passive contrition wrought about by the mercy of God and not the deluded false attrition too many understand as repentance. That is a true heart broken sorrow for one’s doing, not fear of punishment or hope of reward (false repentance). Fourth, it becomes an “upper hand” cry. One may in fact be correct doctrinally but false in that doctrines reality. It is correct according to the doctrines of science that on earth gravity causes all things to fall back to earth. That’s correct over an opposing doctrine that denies this. But you would not call a man to ‘repent’ from his doctrine and to that doctrine just BECAUSE ‘you are right’ and he is wrong. That would be arrogance and pride. You would desire to call him to the right doctrine because the meaning of it is life giving and moving him from the danger of death to life. There’s a difference in “being doctrinally correct” and why a doctrine is in fact true. No one receives life because they move away from where they were (repentance) and toward a more correct position intellectually, they receive life because “HERE” is life in and of itself. You can be working your way to heaven with every doctrine in line. That is the exertion of the power of the mind to reach perfection or “reach up to heaven”, one of the three towers of Babel constructs, some call it intellectual speculation.

Blessings,

Larry

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Larry Hughes
Geologist
Tates Creek PCA
Lexington, KY
PCA

Galatians 4:29, "But as at that time he who was born according to the flesh persecuted him who was born according to the Spirit, so it is now also."

Larry - I suppose I wouldn't have been as tweaked if it weren't for the very reason you stated. Scripture tells me that you go to your brother in private. The PB doesn't allow that. I suppose you can use a PM to correct your brother, but the PB isn't a church. The principle of Matthew 18 may apply, but it can't be employed fully.

The rest of your post made sense. I thank you for your thoughts.

__________________
Bill Brown
Elder
Grace Baptist Church
Anne Arundel County, Maryland

Click to get: Board Rules -- Signature Requirements -- Suggestions?

It's cool brother!

__________________
Bill Brown
Elder
Grace Baptist Church
Anne Arundel County, Maryland

Click to get: Board Rules -- Signature Requirements -- Suggestions?

John - you're right. For the most part I do take comments I don't agree with in the right spirit. This one just go under my skin and I had to say something. I have been blessed by many of my Presbyterian brethren on this board. God has used their words to drive me to scripture and He has changed my understanding on more than a few issues. I believe that is what Larry was getting at in his post in this thread. So long as we are in the faith and consistent with orthodoxy it is the Lord who will effect change when it is needed. Debate and discussion may be the tool that God uses to bring that change to pass. But the call to repent? It makes the issue too personal.

__________________
Bill Brown
Elder
Grace Baptist Church
Anne Arundel County, Maryland

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Here is a banner for the Baptism board

__________________
Adam Leavelle
Westminster OPC
Roaring Spring Pa.

http://www.myspace.com/aleavelle
"Speak wisdom to a fool and he'll think you have no sense at all"

Click to get: Board Rules -- Signature Requirements -- Suggestions?

Ouch!

__________________
Ivan Schoen, Pastor * Maranatha Baptist Church * Poplar Grove, Illinois USA www.maranatha-sbc.org/
“One of the most important discoveries I have ever made is this truth: God is most glorified in me when I am most satisfied in him. This is the motor that drives my ministry as a pastor. It affects everything I do.” --- Dr. John Piper

Let's everybody calm down here - I'd suggest a little cool water but an argument might start about the mode of administration, so maybe I won't...

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The man who is disposed to think of his sin as a great calamity, rather than as a heinous crime, is not likely either to reverence God or to respect His law. - John Kennedy, 1873
Meg
Blog
Member, Intown Presbyterian Church,PCA, Portland, OR

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How 'bout.... or or or Not all water, but it's wet.

__________________
Ivan Schoen, Pastor * Maranatha Baptist Church * Poplar Grove, Illinois USA www.maranatha-sbc.org/
“One of the most important discoveries I have ever made is this truth: God is most glorified in me when I am most satisfied in him. This is the motor that drives my ministry as a pastor. It affects everything I do.” --- Dr. John Piper

First, Adam:

You and I haven't conversed much on this Board. There's nothing personal about that. It's just that our interests in the different forums don't cross that much.

I like your poster, except for one spelling mistake. I think that we need it. We didn't at first, but some of the Paedo's got it in their heads that they won the debate, and therefore could call the Credo's to repentence. It's too bad that this was all it was about for some of us. Personally, I've learned a great deal about the Paedo view by interacting with the Credo's. I never doubted their spiritual integrity. Maybe their powers of reason from time to time. But not their spiritual integrity. In that we all stand in the exact same place. Did you confess Christ as you saviour? So did I. The rest is up the the Spirit's sanctifying work. It's not a matter of salvation, but of sanctification. Have you ever heard of salvation being contingent upon how much the Spirit sanctifies you? Neither have I.

I don't know why my beliefs don't change your mind. And you don't know why your beliefs don't change mine. But we're brothers all the same. You won't hear me calling you to repentance if you're Credo. That's just not part of the unspoken agreement we have here. In my view that's uncalled for.

Bill:

As I said to Adam, the views expressed by those with whom I differ, or whom I would outrightly oppose if they brought these things up in a church setting, have yet helped me a great deal to express my own beliefs and views, and even to come to understand that sometimes my own presuppositions had more of a say in things than I thought. My own presuppositions should have no say whatsoever. Period. That the intent of these discussions as far as I'm concerned, to help me see and cast out my own presuppositions, so that I can embrace to pure truth of the gospel.

Having said that, I agree with Larry's post. I think he addressed what is important here. We can't be afraid to speak honestly and from the heart, nor about how we feel. But we also need to be careful. Some things don't need to be said. Some things are outrightly ridiculous when you think about them; stupid if they're your own words.

Maybe it'll help a bit if I tell you how I handle them, in my saner moments. I'm not always consistent, but I try my best. When it gets to accusations for "not meeting up to my presuppositions" it's time to ignore the argument altogether, right or wrong. If you're more proficient in your understanding and abilities then you can see through it, and just address the argument as it ought to have been stated, not as it was stated. But things like "the great majority of ancient and learned scholars have always believed..." are often just ways to hide ignorance, even by very learned people. In most cases it takes but a moment's reflection to determine that such is not the case at all. You just have to get around this, because others' personal opinions and accusatory remarks really don't have any bearing on the real issue at hand. You're here to learn and grow, just like I am. These types of things help me at least to see these types of things in action, and to avoid doing the same.

But they do get to me, just like they get to everyone else. You can get away with saying, for example, "Credo's need to repent." but look out if you say, "Paedo's need to repent." Let me be one, a Paedo, who insists that Paedo's need to repent. They do. And as a Paedo I'm allowed to say it. And I do. But that's all beside the point. The fairness in our discussions and in the moderating of them is often lacking. I agree with you.

What I am saying is that if you relegate me and my posts to the "ignore" column because I start confusing my own presuppositions with orthodoxy, and with the truth of God's Word, then I don't blame you. I'm on your side for that. We're not here for that. At least I'm not. As many that are here to try to impose their own presuppositions as orthodoxy, I am here to cast aside my own presuppositions that I may embrace orthodoxy. I don't do so because my own views are so much better, but because this is what someone else has taught me, at my great pain. It's not my ideal, it's his, and therefore mine now too.

__________________
JohnV

John Vandervliet
Ontario, Canada
member of: Canadian Reformed Church
"In coming to understand anything we are rejecting the facts as they are for us in favour of the facts as they are" C.S Lewis, An Experiment in Criticism

__________________
Bill Brown
Elder
Grace Baptist Church
Anne Arundel County, Maryland

Click to get: Board Rules -- Signature Requirements -- Suggestions?

Good stuff. I appreciate your sane response. My feathers don't normally get ruffled, but once in a while....

__________________
Bill Brown
Elder
Grace Baptist Church
Anne Arundel County, Maryland

Click to get: Board Rules -- Signature Requirements -- Suggestions?

Excellent, John!

__________________
Ivan Schoen, Pastor * Maranatha Baptist Church * Poplar Grove, Illinois USA www.maranatha-sbc.org/
“One of the most important discoveries I have ever made is this truth: God is most glorified in me when I am most satisfied in him. This is the motor that drives my ministry as a pastor. It affects everything I do.” --- Dr. John Piper