Please nobody take this the wrong way.

We currently live in a nation/world that we have to prove to others that sin is actually sin. . . .we have so fallen from the word of God that we have to prove elementary truths of the scripture to get someone to even think about the sin which they support.

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Shawn
Orthodox Presbyterian
Denver, Colorado

Open my eyes Lord, that I may behold wondrous things out of your law. Psalm 119:18

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Shawn
Orthodox Presbyterian
Denver, Colorado

Open my eyes Lord, that I may behold wondrous things out of your law. Psalm 119:18

Glad you laughed!

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Bryan Wiley
Southern Baptist Theological Seminary
Reformed Baptist Church
Louisville, Kentucky

Dragging prostitution into this discussion adds nothing to the merit of the argument.

I remember attending a home-school defense hearing back in the 80's where the prosecutor argued -- "what if the black prostitute down the street wants to home-school her kids? We have to draw the line!"

Thankfully, racism and distaste for prostitution did not prejudice my home-school client's case that time, and hopefully never will.

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HaigLaw, ruling elder
Grace PCA, Shreveport, LA
http://www.xanga.com/HaigLaw

seems as odd to me as those who insist that if children arent home schooled the parents are sinning.

idk. seriously id aggree that homeschooling and private "covenant" schools are better than public 98% of the time. Private schools are expensive. SO unless covenant kids get free tuiton- how are the parents gonna afford?

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Jeff Rod
Eastwood Presbyterian Church PCA
member.
webpage: myspace.com/reformationforever

To live a simple, peaceable life before God
To owe as little as possible, to few as possible.

i dont adhere to any book of church article, creed, confession, or even calvin simply because my daddy or my pastor told me it was true. I do my best to scrutinize every work of man according to scripture. so far ^ the above hold up extrodinarily well.
but in the end. what matters is not the words of mortal men, but what God says period(.)

so If one can not find a direct command in scripture to send kids to a Christian School. and If one can not find a reasonable, non stretched, forced, or mis applied inference to send them to Christian school then we have NO business mandating that,

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Jeff Rod
Eastwood Presbyterian Church PCA
member.
webpage: myspace.com/reformationforever

To live a simple, peaceable life before God
To owe as little as possible, to few as possible.

I certainly hope I am not so arrogant as to assume I perfectly understand everything the word of God has to say. I have been wrong on subjects before and had to change my position, and I am sure I will have to do so again in the future.

That said, someone asking me ‘Are you sure….?’ is hardly a reason for me to doubt my position, especially since you declined to provide any bible verses. I have no doubt you will be able to prove the christian’s duty to make sure his or her children are brought up as Christians. I am not so sure you can prove that it is always a sin to use state schools, irregardless of the circumstances of the family. I have read some other arguments by Christians on this subject, and am unconvinced.

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Mark Li
International University Church
New South Wales, Australia

Comparing believers on this forum to unbelievers and fools is surely a little harsh when by your own admission you have not supported your position from the bible. If you have not backed up your presupposition from the bible, why exactly is it so wrong to disagree with you?

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Mark Li
International University Church
New South Wales, Australia

My example was not dealing with sin/no sin...it was proving that homeschooling is possible in the "impossible" situations that are always dragged up. The "what about" and "what if". I know MANY homeschoolers. Some that have NO highschool diploma, yet children are college bound and doing well. Some with NO college...the same with their children. People who have dealt with layoffs and little to no income...still homeschooling while the husband hits the pavement in search of the next job. IF mom went to work, it was to a job that permitted her to continue teaching the children. Parent's that were widow, parents with spouse's in jail, parents where one is undergoing a multitude of surgeries, through bedrest, etc. IT'S POSSIBLE. Not always easy, but possible. Through some circumstances, homeschooling can make family life more bearable through the circumstance and actually SAVE money.

As to the sin issue...I understand that not everyone is where I'm at on the issue and IRL, I don't sit in judgement of them...however, this is how I view it: would it be sin for me to send my children to a muslim school? (yes, I'm borrowing the question)

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JC
URCNA
PA, but homesick for SC

"Who says you can't go back, been all around the world and as a matter of fact. There's only one place left I want to go, who says you can't go home" Bon Jovi

I never meant to infer that NOT homeschooling your children was a sin. In fact, I don't think I have even been advocating homeschooling only on this thread.

I make no judgement upon anyone for not homeschooling their children ..."Love God and do what you want"

The clarification is this:
I am against STATE SCHOOLING...I am not pro homeschool only...I am anti-state schooling. I am pro covenant education.

Please don't frame me in the box of being one of those "home school fanatics"...
Again...I have not even advocated homeschooling only on this thread.

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Shawn
Orthodox Presbyterian
Denver, Colorado

Open my eyes Lord, that I may behold wondrous things out of your law. Psalm 119:18

State education is sinful as God has not commanded the state to educate children; as the state is God's minister (Rom. 13) it cannot do whatever it wants, but must only do what is consistent with its God-appointed role set down in Scripture.

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Daniel Ritchie
Saintfield, Northern Ireland - Queen's University, Belfast:History/Politics
Member of Dromara Reformed Presbyterian Church of Ireland (Covenanter)

Well then, GET TO IT. You don't come on my board accusing a swath of people, dogmatically, with committing a sin if you cannot provide a positive case in the Scriptures prohibiting public education.

Warning: You had better provide much more than a Biblical injunction that parents are responsible for the education of their children. Responsibility does not preclude the concept that authority can be delegated while maintaining responsibility. You had better do a bang up job of noting that a Covenant education precludes any ability for the State to fund a portion of that education.

Frankly, if you don't, I'll dogmatically censure you for your brash assertions in this thread and I won't back it up with a single Scripture. It will just come with the sweeping click of a mouse and all the delicateness and maturity you've demonstrated thus far.

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Rich
Northern VA
OPC

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Please show me where I have accused anybody of sin specifically and I will be happy to delete such accusations myself. For it is not in accordance with the word of God to accuse a brother of sin openly, without first having gone to him privately, and if he will not listen to bring 2-3 witnesses.

Just because I have a personal conviction, and I voice that conviction publically, does not make me an accuser.

e.g., If I say that I don't like people who bite thier nails...and there is someone out there reading this post while biting thier nails...have I condemned that person specifically?

Are we not allowed to voice our personal convictions on this site?

Or, if I am convinced from the word of God that homosexuallity is a sin, and I voice that personal conviction, do I have to write out the biblical argument for such conviction just in case a homosexual reads my thread?

Are we not allowed to interact in posts with some presuppositions?

Semper...you just responded to me with presuppositions that state schooling is not sin (or may not be sin).
Ok, that is your position, that is your presupposition...would it be fair for me to make you argue your presupposition every time you mention the topic? Can you not simply interact and discuss with others and still operate under your personal conviction and the presupposition you hold?

How about if I interact on an Athiest forum...should I have to prove first that there is a God, i.e., prove my presupposition before I am allowed to discuss the topic?

My conviction is that state schooling is sin...When I speak about the topic I operate on that conviction, I operate with that presupposition.
WHAT IS WRONG WITH THAT?

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Shawn
Orthodox Presbyterian
Denver, Colorado

Open my eyes Lord, that I may behold wondrous things out of your law. Psalm 119:18

You have failed to demonstrate that your scruple is a sin for all.

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Rich
Northern VA
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State education is sinful for the following reasons:

1. It involves giving unto Caesar what does not belong to him (i.e. covenant children who are to be educated in the fear of the Lord).

2. It involves a usurpation of the families sphere of authority.

3. Christian parents are to being up their children in a Christian worldview (Deut. 6), this cannot be done in a state school.

4. The point of state education is to indoctrinate children in a non-Christian - supposedly neutral - worldview (Dan. 1).

5. State education involves teaching children evolution, which strikes at the very heart of Christianity.

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Daniel Ritchie
Saintfield, Northern Ireland - Queen's University, Belfast:History/Politics
Member of Dromara Reformed Presbyterian Church of Ireland (Covenanter)

This thread has been about the liberty of conscience of a pastor to home-school his children, vs. sending them to a private Christian school.

It was not originally a



against the public schools.

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HaigLaw, ruling elder
Grace PCA, Shreveport, LA
http://www.xanga.com/HaigLaw

All of your reasons presume that education is completely taken over by the State. There is neither a rendering to Caesar that which is not Caeser's nor an usurpation of authority when parents delegate authority for the education of their children. It would be an usurpation of parental authority for a parent to be forced to allow the Church to educate their children as well.

3. assumes that parents must, of necessity, never teach anything outside of school.

4. assumes a homogoneous type of Public Education and ignores some regions that do not teach a neutral worldview as well as periods in history when the worldview was decidedly Christian.

5. is another culturally conditioned argument that fails at the point that some public schools do not nor do all grade levels nor have all periods in the history of public education.

All of your arguments are based on specific examples and not a transcendental, Scriptural precept. For every example one can come up with examples of publich education that do not fit the particular mold.

Look, I'm not in favor of sending my children to public schools. That is my decision as a parent, however. I am commanded to raise my children in the fear and admonition of the Lord. I am responsible to God for that task. What you seem to misunderstand is the manner in which that can be accomplished as well as my authority to delegate tasks to others while not losing the inherent responsibility for the results.

__________________
Rich
Northern VA
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I realize I helped contribute to the OT discussion but the original issue was Christian School (church run IIRC) vs Homeschool. Why would it be a bad thing to require a pastor to send his kids to a Christian school that is supported by the church? No Public Schools involved in the controversy.

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Thanks, Gail, for dragging it back on track

I believe it is wrong for the Pastor to go against his conscience and interfere in this area of Christian Liberty. I prefer homeschooling over a church school, but will not state that a church school is necessarily sin (there are reasons that I choose one over the other though, and they are reasons that weigh heavily to me). But for a Pastor to be dismissed because he chose for his children to be tutored privately at home, whether by a hired tutor or his wife and himself, is wrong as the Pastor has committed no sin or dissension (other than others are offended in their own mind over something that was never meant to be an offense).

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JC
URCNA
PA, but homesick for SC

"Who says you can't go back, been all around the world and as a matter of fact. There's only one place left I want to go, who says you can't go home" Bon Jovi

Parents may delegate authority to other parents in a parentally controlled Christian school, but not to the state, as the state has no Biblical warrant for getting involved in education in the first place as this duty has never been delegated to it. So any education done by the state involves rendering unto Caesar what is not Caesars.

State education has always been a pagan idea. Why did the Babylonians have Statist schools? To make the children good Statists and servants of the Babylonian religion. I do not need a specific verse in the Bible which says "you shall not send your children to state schools". The fact that such an arrangement is not divinely authorized is enough. Parents who send their children to state s