I've heard on several radio shows in the last couple of days that preachers, even in "conservative" churches are using profanity from the pulpit. The radio people stated that when asked about it, the preachers say they are meeting people where they are. They are trying to become more approachable to the "regular" people in the congregation. Is this really a trend? This doesn't happen ever in my church, but is this really becoming a problem in previously good churches?

__________________
Evon Taylor
Community Bible Church
Swansea, Il

Whether it's happening in "previously good churches" or not, it's reprehensible wherever it is happening. We don't want to "meet people wherever they are" but preach the Gospel that the Lord would move them to wherever they need to go.

__________________
Josh Hicks, Chloë's Dad
Christ Covenant Reformed Presbyterian Church, RPCGA
Facebook - The Calvinist Vent
Board Rules - Signature Rules - Suggestion Box

It is God that multiplies our sorrows.... God, as a righteous Judge, does it, which ought to silence us under all our sorrows; as many as they are, we have deserved them all, and more: nay, God, as a tender Father, does it for our necessary correction, that we may be humbled for sin, and weaned from the world by all our sorrows; and the good we get by them, with the comfort we have under them, will abundantly balance our sorrows, how greatly soever they are multiplied. - Matthew Henry

I can only confirm the content of where I have been. Up to this date the only words I have heard from the pulpit which some may complain about being used are "hell" and "damn". However, they were used in their proper context as a place and an act of God respectively.

I have downloaded sermons with the word "sucks" included, but it was not related to nursing, it was expressing the inferiority of something. That may be an issue with some.

__________________
Rich Koster
1689'er
Browns Mills NJ USA
Often Goofy Reformed Eccentric
Romans 7:14-25

I think there is a Biblical basis for some tailoring of the message depending on the audience, but, as with most things, this is often taken way too far.

Without getting graphic, what words are they using? Not the defcon red stuff I hope.

__________________
Jon Peters
Member, Reformation Fellowship (OPC) (Roseville, CA)
Folsom, CA

[Moderator]Don't go down the Driscoll road again.[/Moderator]

__________________
Ruben
Moderator
F.P.C.I.
Indiana

Vanities and disguises have covered us, and thereby we are naked; licenciousness hath inflam'd us, and thereby we are frozen; voluptuousness hath fed us, and thereby we are sterved, the fancies and traditions of men have taught and instructed us, and thereby we are ignorant.
John Donne

Board Rules - Signature Requirements - Suggestions?

Calvinistas Conversando
Teología en Mexico
The Howling Wilderness

Evon,

Profanity is defined by Noah Webster under profaneness:

No minister of the gospel may use profanity without being subject to God's curse, and should be brought up on charges.

There are other words which we may refer to as vulgarity, but which must not be confused with profanity. Vulgarity simply refers to words which are common to people, but does not necessarily mean that they are profane.

Also, there are some vulgarities which can be used in such a way as to violate the 7th Commandment, and these ought also to be chargeable offenses in a minister if used as such.

The interesting thing is that Scripture uses some of the vulgarities which may even seem overtly sexual, but which are not used so as to violate the 7th Commandment. Also, the Bible uses other non-profane vulgarity, and even quotes certain instances of profanity, or alludes to the same. The non-profane vulgarity used in the Prophets and Apostles ought to act as a check to prudishness, but should not be used as a license for regular vulgarity. Their vulgarity was calculated, discreet, and infrequent.

Cheers,

__________________
Adam B., Wine Country, California, PCA

"I fear not to hold with Junius, de Politia Mosis cap. 6, that he who was punishable by death under that Judicial law, is punishable by death still; and he who was not punished by death then, is not to be punished by death now."

John MacArthur has a good discussion on CD about this. His ministry sent me one and I'm sure you can still acquire it through "Grace to You" Ministries.

I believe it is just the next generation of what flows from the seeker sensitive movement we've seen for many years now. We've entertained people to death and still can't reach Joe six-pack, so now lets just start talking like Joe to get him to church. How sad.

__________________
Rick
Teacher/Apologist
Baptist
SE Missouri

From what I have heard personally, and know, there are a very small number of teachers who, theologically, are conservative, and who have used language that is inappropriate. I'd say it most certainly is a growing trend, but I don't know that the language-usage aspect of it is necessarily a growing trend in good churches. The growing trend is called "missional adaptation", or "Gospel-contextualization". The idea, of itself, isn't necessarily wrong or evil, but it seems to be perverted often. It's basic premise is that we ought to preach the Gospel in a way, or teach in a way that relates the Gospel to people's culture; and that doesn't necessitate we use tv references.

Matt Chandler is one example. He preaches down south, in Texas, where he believes legalism and moralism have dwarfed people's understanding of the Gospel; therefore, he sees his contextualization as being his teaching the Gospel, more often than not, in contrast to this legalism. Such reasoning can hardly be argued against, especially when you consider the apolegetical nature of many of the reformers sermons. The reformers would often state the Gospel in terms of its relation the false Gospel of the Roman catholic church.

As far as the profane speech goes, and the mixing of worldliness with holiness in some people's sermons and church practices, history may prove that a large number of pastors ARE likely (already) influenced, to some degree, by this growing trend; others will likely continue to jump on board. Sadly, many, if not most of these men (and women) aren't even born-again; so for them to adopt unbiblical methods is not surprising. What we also know, however, is that God has a peculiar bunch who would rather be burnt alive than pervert the Gospel and their Gospel ministries; and that this zealous group will also make disciples to continue combating these unbiblical, demon-inspired idealogies. And to this end we should labor in prayer. We should do all that is within our power to influence the body of Christ with sound doctrine and practices- doing all things in humility and love.

__________________
Thomas Karrer
*Currently dissolving membership at First Baptist Church, and searching- with no success thus far- for a new church family*
Moses Lake, WA


"Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and you perish in the way; for his wrath is quickly kindled. Blessed are all who take refuge in him" (Psalm 2:12).

It is always good to distinguish between profanity and vulgarity, but vulgarity is still not appropriate in polite society.

__________________
Edward
Deacon
PCA
Texas

Then I will stay out of polite society with Moses, Isaiah and the Apostle Paul who used vulgarity when necessary.

Here's a note on Paul's use of "vulgarity" - skubalon: http://www.leithart.com/archives/002863.php

__________________
Pergamum


"If a commission by an earthly king is considered a honor, how can a commission by a Heavenly King be considered a sacrifice?"
-- David Livingstone

I can't seem to pull up this link (it says it's broken).

This is the word sometime translated "dung," albeit this is a less vulgar English word than could legitimately be used.

The link had a double "http" in it. Try this:

Leithart.com | Skubalon

__________________
Norm
IA PCA

In love he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will. Ephesians 1:4-5

I just don't see the point of profanity. Is there not a more creative way to get your point across?

I understand letting a word slip in a shocking or painful situation, but it seems odd to plan to say a vulgar or profane word - especially in any sort of public address.

I guess I'm just too old fashioned...

__________________
Kathleen M
nondenominational
Montana

I wish people would admit this....some people are just "old fashioned" and not necessarily biblical.

__________________
Dewey D
Reformed Heritage Church (Independent at the moment)
San Fransicko, CA

Men of God are sick with the seeker friendly movement, it has turned our Churches into a pool of weakness filled with fairy's.
Men of God are now preaching tough messages out of rebellion to the current Church, and to get the message across. I'm not for cursing in the pulpit, nor do I like cursing, however I am for harsh words being thrown out. Even Jesus used harsh words. "You blood sucking Vipers fit for hell." Even OT prohets used harsh words. If we preach Jesus is my girl Friend for the next five years, Christianity will die in Americia. Face it, we are looking at the coffins right now.

Things have got to change, but that does not mean we should be cursing, but we should be getting stern.

__________________
Chris
Attending Church (No office position)
PCA
North Carolina

Pastor Dan Phillips (of Pyromaniacs) does a great sermon on this, in which he talks about the use of such things as the F-word in society, and how many mainstream evangelicals want to put the Bible and preaching into the "language of the people". I remember something to the effect of him asking "Why would such a great idea be neglected by the secular world? Why is the 6 o'clock news not filled with the expletives so common in our everyday language? How is it that they are able to communicate all the major events going on around the globe without dropping the F-bomb even once?"

When I hear/see it used by preachers, this always comes to mind: "For out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh." I don't know that there is ever a reason to use it in transmitting the gospel, skubalon notwithstanding.

"Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, but that which is good to the use of edifying, that it may minister grace unto the hearers." How do those that use such vulgarities apply this?

__________________
Kevin, husband of a truly angelic woman, and father to ten.
Zion United Reformed Church of Sheffield
Ontario, Canada

Look, Friends, those of you who want to disparage us old prudes, etc. because we're old fashioned, doesn't mean that the only reason we believe such things is because it's old fashioned. Bad language, and poor use of acceptable language, has been around since the Fall. Let's not fool ourselves. The use of profanity, in whatever culture one finds himself, is ubiquitous and ubiquitously wrong.

Further, it's not simply certain words that are inherently sinful that are the problem, but that coupled with unmoderated language altogether. We violate the 6th Commandment many times toward our brethren using much less outwardly abrasive language when we give them a roll of the eyes, are a treatment of "your response is not even worthy of a listen-to." I think we would do well to consider the whole of scripture when it comes to our use of language period. The Bible is not silent on the manner in which Christians ought to speak, and I believe that if we're honest with ourselves, it includes the use of profanity (not vulgar language - i.e. the common language of the people).

I believe Dr. Greg Bahnsen makes a great biblical and pastoral case concerning this in his A Moral Checkup for Your Mouth:
If anything at all, we ought to be given pause when we speak carelessly and use profanity, when the exact same point we're trying to get across can be adequately and more effectively made with the employment of non-offensive language. Conversation that's seasoned with salt (in the preservative and flavoring sense).

I don't know about the hearts of any of you, but this is something which I know I need constant work on. And my awareness of it (sadly so) has only been heightened by the presence of my little girl when she's around.

Thank you, from one old fuddy duddy to another.

And let me tell you, the weight of my own tongue is heavy. Whenever I ask the boys why there's **** all over their room, I go back upstairs and think: "Hey, I'll betcha I'm going to hear that again later..." And that's just the tip of the iceberg.

(That's ****, rhyming with trap.)

Thanks for the explanation. I was thinking of a word more in touch with my Anglo-Saxon roots.

I'd rather be though of as old fashion than to try to be one of the cool kids with a filthy mouth. Now, if I could always just act accordingly.

Vulgar and profane speech is a sign of limited vocabulary and weak intellect. One should be able to get their point across without being crass.

I work in the construction industry, and have to guard myself against "talking like one of the boys". If I heard talk like that coming from the pulpit, I would walk out and never come back.

__________________
Michael Tremmel
attending Christ Reformed Baptist Church
Hales Corners, WI.

Isaiah 46:5-11

I have set the Lord always before me; because he is at my right hand, I shall not be shaken. Ps.16:8 ESV

But by the grace of God I am what I am, and his grace toward me was not in vain. 1 Cor.15:10a ESV

Praecepta docent, exempla movent (precepts teach, but examples move)

Translating the Scripture into the vulgar tongue of a people is a very good thing and can be done in a plain and "clean" manner.

Let's not let any folks who use profanity to limit our efforts in always presenting the Gospel in plain, accurate, understandable and meaningful language for a target people. Their understanding is already darkened, so let us try not to add any darkness by keeping our language obscure and archaic in the name of keeping it "holy."

I do hope that we avoid the "profane" - which is sinful, even while making sure our language is "vulgar" - or common - in that the pastor preaches and prays using words and expressions commonly expressed among the people to whom they are ministering.

The Westminster Larger Catechism summarizes the doctrine of Scripture to say some sins are "aggravated" (worse) because, among other things, they affect more people, are done under pretense of authority, in greater presence of grace, etc.

All these are violated, and make it aggravated when a church leader uses cursing, swearing language as part of an authoritative act such as preaching. It ought to be subject of church discipline, as appropriate for aggravated sin.

Recently, the long-time Pastor of our President was shown on video and audio repeatedly taking our Lord's Name in vain- from the pulpit. Brazenly, repeatedly cursed God from the pulpit.

My first reaction was, where is the church discipline on this?

Why did the members of his congregation not demand it, let alone its leaders?

Why was there no official denunciation from his church, made public?

Why didn't other churches in that denomination demand it?

Imagine the irony- the FCC broadcast guidelines held a higher standard than apparently the Pastor, the leaders of his church, the members, and those related to it with influence.

A brazen act of cursing the Lord, from the pulpit, repeatedly by one who would presume our Lord's authority to teach and disciple His people, disseminated publicly to believer and nonbeliever alike, and without concern or remedy, apparently.

__________________
Scott
PCA
North Carolina


"Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised)"
Hebrews 10:23

Two weeks ago, I did 72 hours of prison ministry. I don't remember hearing any of the inmates swear or use any kind of profanity. They were probably cleaning it up for our behalf, but that's ok from my perspective.
My wife and I pray Psalm 141:3 on a regular basis and knowing it or not, these men were concerned about perception and decency and we're doing the same thing, maybe even knowingly, considering their knowledge of scripture.
I see no reason why we should lower our standards to try and be more worldly, Especially from our pulpits.

__________________
Todd
18 Mile Baptist
La Grange, KY

that is a great point... and the way it should be
the light we give people, the Light we represent...
should cause sinners to want to "clean up their act" in our presence.
even hardened criminals know that profanity has NO PLACE in the house of God, or in expounding His word

__________________
thomas harvey
husband & father
nashua NH
OPC

I like this quote that LawrenceU shared from a few years back:

This is simply not true. The repetitious use of ANY word indicates inadequate vocabulary. The usage of profanity actually adds to your repertoire of words...just don't abuse it and know when to use it.

For example:

The American Vision Collision with Pietism

just curious as to when is the appropriate time to use profanity?

__________________
Andrew S.
Covenant Presbyterian Church (OPC)
Abilene,TX

Whatever. I'm tired of the "Pietism" accusations thrown against those who are not Pietists (moralists, perfectionists, etc.), but really do think that biblical piety is not only to be desired, but is demanded and required by God, and is a result of justification.

This is classic "end justifying the means" and shows a deep distrust in the fact that it is God, and God only who illuminates his Word.

__________________
JWithnell
Member Bethel OPC
Virginia
http://learningyesican.blogspot.com/

I appreciate Driscoll's convictions on much, but thought this might lighten up the thread a bit.

__________________
Adam J. Myer
Slated for the Jan. 10th Chaplains Basic Officer Leadership Course
Estacada Christian Church
Sandy, Oregon

Soli Deo Gloria

But I'm partial to Crystal Louisiana style myself!

Ah! (breathes a happy sigh)

We love to quote Puritans, but nobody seems to want to live like them. I think most of us could do with a good deal more biblical piety in our lives.

Johnny Mac has a podcast on the GTY web site called the case against the R-Rated church Radio Archive.

__________________
"Once a Marine, always a Marine!"

Sergeant(Sgt)
Deacon
Holiister, Ca