Rev. Greco resumes:

Vote down the minority report as a substitute.

Study committees are not helpful where most have their minds made up.

There are few Scriptures on this issue.

There are other ways to discuss this.

__________________

HaigLaw, ruling elder
Grace PCA, Shreveport, LA
http://www.xanga.com/HaigLaw

Greco:

Analogize our nation's constitution. Amendments from local bodies.

The PCA has studied this issue extensively. It's part of PCA history. PCA is traditional on the role of women in church office.

Difficulties with minority report: suggests potential changes to the BCO -- an inappropriate issue. offer pastoral advice in committees, instead of presbyteries.

There is diversity of thinking in Reformed scholars, but on other matters too. We don't need study committees for such issues.

We welcome overtures on core matters -- Apostles Creed, for example.

Trust the process. The 13 hours from our committee to have this debate.

Trust yourselves to debate in presbyteries. A small study committee -- will make us partisan.

Rev. Greco concludes.

Speaker in favor of minority report: Does not believe in women deacons.

Study committees discuss issues in culture. We do not model how to disagree in a Christlike manner. Observe in the blog-sphere what we're saying about each other.

We are talking in ways that are not edifying.

How do we disagree?

Not by exchanging information (inaudible).

We need to be in a room with one another.

Previous exegetical studies are good, but we need men who differ in the same room discussing it. It's how we've addressed issues in the past.

Second speaker, against the minority report:

Easy to offend without even trying. Don't want study committee. Deal with these issues; but study committee is not the way to do it.

We can offend without even trying. Study committee -- sorry for the way the church deals with women -- study committee will not fix that problem.

Assembly debates over a study committee. We should debate the outcome.

How to fully love half the body of Christ -- repent and believe.

Point of order -- standing vote previously was irregular. It was an improper count.

Moderator says there will be no ruling on that.

Speaker for the minority report: Both speakers appreciated.

Significant churches in the PCA have or have had deaconnesses. if the language is not ambiguous, we are cowardly or slack, or there is some room for this possibility.

If a study committee will lead to further divisions, then it's already there, and that never stopped us in the past. Not a good argument not to do something.

No secret this minority report comes as a result of the desires of several young pastors in the PCA. I'm 50 years old, and Frank Barker, etc. still think I'm young. We never got involved like these young men have. We need to celebrate that they dive in to define who we are.

Moderator -- time is up.

Moderator rules - - another 5 minutes of debate.

Moderator asks whether those waiting are for or against.

All are for the minority.

Moderator keeps looking for someone against it.

Finds one. Another speaker against: Pleased we have the minority report.

Dave Coffin, Potomac Presbytery: well persuaded, men who differ on the point, but wonderful unanimity on Scriptures alone, rule of practice. Tremendous demonstration of what we share, on the committee.

Well framed, argued graciously. But, opposed, concur with the chair. Asks pastoral advice on appropriate range of practices. Couched gently. Kinds of questions asked. Gently, but a threat to constitutional order. Presbyteries are courts of original jurisdiction, on appropriate ranges of practices, subject to review and control by higher courts.

Moderator rules - time out.

Speaker in favor of minority report: When a presbytery asks for help, we should not tell them it's already clear.

Specific questions not answered by majority report.

Vastly preferable to gain the best minds of the church, not just one presbytery, not merely BCO amendments.

There is a real need in the PCA now, should not be dealt with in bits and pieces.

Moderator -- extend debate another 5 minutes?

Moderator rules, vote was to not extend debate.

A division was called.

Chair rules, we will have to have a floor count.

Votes to extend debate by standing vote counted.

Votes not to extend debate by standing vote counted.

What time are they supposed to finish?

__________________
Benjamin P. Glaser, M. Div, Licentiate, Associate Reformed Presbyterian Church
Member Fairmount ARP Church
Pittsburgh, PA

Deo Vindice

The vote on whether to extend debate was 420 to 467.

Rev. Greco resumes: recommend vote against minority report as substitute.

There is no time limit in committee, it takes 3/4ths to cut off debate.

If the substitute is the main motion, you should recommit it back to the Overtures Committee, because it's not amendable on the floor.

Minority report has failed.

Division was called.

Moderator called for standing vote.

Moderator: minority report has failed.

Main motion now. Discussion called.

Each generation should talk these things in great detail, and own things in every generation.

I've lost track what is the main motion now?

Speaker in favor of the majority report: committee did excellent job.

Speaker against the majority report: Chaired the committee that produced Overture 9. Philadelphia presbytery has tried to work this through the local level, and that's why we asked help. The PCA has since 1984 recognized that a Biblical case can be made for women as deacons, but not practice it, as an exception, for ordination.

But what do you practice? "The role of women in diaconal ministries" was our phrase. We find ourselves in difficulty defining that. Speak against the majority report.

The majority report is on the floor now, having voted down the minority report.

Speaker against feminism.

Really???

Talking about this gives legitimacy to feminism.

Moderator calls for a speaker against the majority report.

Speaker has a question -- what is the status if this motion is defeated?

I am giving a running account of what various speakers are saying.

Moderator ruled that a negative vote would return the overture to the Overtures Committee.

Speaker said churches tried to follow the BCO and got exceptions to their minutes. This needs to be studied more, and not lead to slippery slope. Speaker was on trial during his adoption for being in the PCA and possibly harming his adoptive daughter, because of the PCA's position on women. This needs to be discussed.

Moderator calls time, asks whether to vote to extend debate.

Vote to extend debate fails.

Rev. Greco repeats the proposal of the committee on Overture 9.

Moderator calls for a vote.

Answer to Overture 9 in the negative passed.

Overture 11 proposed to be answered in negative.

No Overture 10?

__________________
Seth Stark
Member, Communion Presbyterian Church (ARP), Irvine, CA
Biola University, Graduate Student, M.A. - Science and Religion
Seth's Blog

Correction - Overture #14.

Passes.

Overture 15 to be answered with reference to the answer to Overture #9.

It passes.

Overture #17 be answered with reference to #9.

Passes.

Overture 19 be answered with reference to #9, with a minute explanatory.

Overture 19 asks to decline to have a study committee on women deacons.

It passes.

Communication #2 be answered with reference to Overture 9.

It passes.

Rev. Greco concludes his committee's report in prayer.

Speaker: Those who said that the ones who favored the study committee being "tools of feminism" caused offense.

The tone was un-Christian, and needs to be addressed. It was inflammatory.

Moderator: I pray no one was offended. If so, speak to me personally, I will pray with you. We are family. Christ was Somebody; we were nobodies. In humility, consider others better than yourself. No stronger words than the Bible.

Another point of order: I was the brother accused of offense. My desire was for the purity, health, and love of Christ of the church. I stand by that. My brother has a right to be offended. I have no power over that.

Moderator: Thanks.

Another speaker: Apologize for speaking on points that were not necessary.

Moderator: We knew this was the biggest issue. A little tension should not surprise us. I think there is a lot of support and love in this auditorium.

Speaker: Impressed with Moderator's gracious demeanor. Lead us in prayer now.

Moderator: Let's pray.

Committee on Review of Presbytery Records coming up.

70 presbyteries got approval and can be voted omnibus.

6 presbyteries did not -- got disapprovals.

It was dealt with yesterday.

__________________
Chris


A passion to know and reflect Christ by living and demonstrating the truth and richness of the historic Reformed faith

Visit My Website Here

Christopher Blum
Member of Trinity Presbyterian Church of Northern Kentucky (PCA) in Burlington, KY

Click to get: Board Rules -- Signature Requirements -- Suggestions?