Are Pastors REALLY over-worked

Pergamum · #1 (**permalink**) 10-01-2008, 01:22 PM

I hear all the time that pastors are over-worked.

Yet most pastors I know have the largest libraries I know of.

Is reading work?

Most pastors I know are also fat or bordering on it (I'm "bulky" myself). ....And a few pastors I know have soft, girly hands that do not have callouses.

Also, most spend a large portion of their time reading and studying the Bible - things that most devoted laymen do AFTER work. Is studying Scripture work? Do we need a break from it?

When in the military I did 12-hour shifts. Then read the Scriptures after work. I know many others who work secular jobs and then fit in their reading and studying at night (instead of sleeping 8 hours per night they sleep 6 hours per night in order to study 2).

Right now, the "ministry" I am in is supported by a base of donors who do stuff like lift drywall or work at Walmart for 10 hours per day to help support me.

Much of my recent "ministry" has been home-based due to family sickness. Many pastors I know get to eat all 3 meals with family and only go to a separate office to actuallly get away from family so that they will not be interrupted (i.e. they have to make efforts to work).

Plus, most folks in the US would also probably state that they, too, are over-worked? Why should we feel sorry for pastors who are in the same lot as the rest of Americans who often work 60 hour weeks?

So, my questions:

--Are we over-worked?
--How do we know we are over-worked?
---Can and should we slow down?
---How do we slow down without looking lazy? Especially when the members of our churches work 60 hour work weeks and then come hear us on Sundays?
--How do we balance a "calling" and an "all-consuming passion" with rest and relaxation?
--How do we gauge productivity, hours in office and other measurements of how much we work, which seem necesary pre-requisites to proving that we are actually over-worked?

And, if we are not over-worked, what about ministry burnout and depression?

Why is the ministry so much more stressful than "normal jobs"?

Ministry is the hardest thing I have ever done, even if it is physically easy?

Any thoughts?

KenPierce · #2 (**permalink**) 10-01-2008, 02:00 PM

Are pastors overworked? Yes.
But, not necessarily in the way you put it.
I have done manual labor, and felt the good tired of a day spent accomplishing a tangible project.
Compare that to office work where one often goes to bed, the events of the day still swirling in his head, and without the satisfaction of saying, "I produced x widgets today."
There is no quantifiable accomplishment in ministry. Even "new members added" really doesn't count.

Pastors are overworked in the sense that we are the "clerical professionals," and are called upon to do far more than equip the saints for the work of ministry, which, it seems I read somewhere, is our job description! The rest of the ministry should be carried on by the saints, for their own welfare and benefit, and yes, taking into account their work week.

Paul says that those who labor in the gospel should make their living from it, as the Levites did of old.

I don't know that ministry is inherently more stressful than many other cerebral lines of work. I do know it is uniquely stressful mostly, I think, due to spiritual warfare, and the discouragement that comes from realizing the vanity of one's best efforts.

Why do we get burned out? Probably a lot of reasons, but at least one is, "we care about those we care about more than those we care about care about themselves." In short, we grieve for the souls of our people, morethan they care about their own, in many cases. Ponder that one for awhile!!!

Barnpreacher · #3 (**permalink**) 10-01-2008, 02:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KenPierce

Why do we get burned out? Probably a lot of reasons, but at least one is, "we care about those we care about more than those we care about care about themselves." In short, we grieve for the souls of our people, morethan they care about their own, in many cases. Ponder that one for awhile!!!

Amen! This is so true in my own pastoral experience. I wake up every morning, not just carrying the burdens of my wife and two daughters but carrying those of a whole church as well.

People say, "Well, just turn it over to Jesus." I understand that, but the undershepherd still must care for the sheep. And a big portion of that is caring for their souls, their disconcern for their own spiritual lives, and simply carrying their burdens on our hearts.

shackleton · #4 (**permalink**) 10-01-2008, 06:28 PM

Pergamum,
I take it from your initial post that you either are a pastor or resent the fact that they have so much "free time." I think the bulk of what pastors do is help people with problems. This is what takes us the bulk of their time, or at least it should. The burnout is from fatigue from giving without adequate time to recharge their batteries. In a church with over 100 people and especially more, the pastor has to put in a lot of work to shepherd that many people.

I know there are plenty of lazy pastors who sit around all day and collect six figure paychecks, I am not referring to these people.

**KMK** · #5 (**permalink**) 10-01-2008, 08:03 PM

I wish I had more work. As it is, I only get to preach once a week. I would love the opportunity to preach more. Maybe someday the Lord will arrange it. I heard that Whitfield preached 8 or 9 sermons a week!

I guess I will have to settle for working a full time secular job to make ends meet...for now...

JOwen · #6 (**permalink**) 10-01-2008, 10:09 PM

In my congregation we have had 6 miscarriages in 18 months, two of the dead were twins. I have done 4 funerals in 2 years in a congregation of 120. We have had one issue of discipline that ended up in the excommunication of a past elder, as well as 4 other cases of discipline randing from a violation of the 4th to the 6th, to the 7th commandments. Right now, one of our founding members lies on his death bed with bone cancer, and his wife is in deep grief. Who do you think is at every bedside, weeping with the parents who have no child to hold? Who is counseling at least 20 hours a week not to mention all the other responsibilities of being a minister of the gospel? Anyone who thinks that "burnout" comes from reading and writing sermons has not a clue of what is actually required to be an under-shepherd of Christ. We care deeply for the souls under our care, and we take everything personally. If we did not, we would be hirelings.

kalawine · #7 (**permalink**) 10-01-2008, 11:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JOwen

In my congregation we have had 6 miscarriages in 18 months, two of the dead were twins. I have done 4 funerals in 2 years in a congregation of 120. We have had one issue of discipline that ended up in the excommunication of a past elder, as well as 4 other cases of discipline randing from a violation of the 4th to the 6th, to the 7th commandments. Right now, one of our founding members lies on his death bed with bone cancer, and his wife is in deep grief. Who do you think is at every bedside, weeping with the parents who have no child to hold? Who is counseling at least 20 hours a week not to mention all the other responsibilities of being a minister of the gospel? Anyone who thinks that "burnout" comes from reading and writing sermons has not a clue of what is actually required to be an under-shepherd of Christ. We care deeply for the souls under our care, and we take everything personally. If we did not, we would be hirelings.

God bless you Brother! You just made my prayer list.

**py3ak** · #8 (**permalink**) 10-02-2008, 05:54 AM

Reading is work.

bob · #9 (**permalink**) 10-02-2008, 06:09 AM

The church that I pastor has only about 60 people. In addition to pastoral duties, I also work as a carpenter to help try to pay the bills. I don't know if I think of myself as over-worked, but I do know that at times I know weariness.

I think that most pastors find little labor in the act of reading, studying, and preaching/teaching. I love to study and preach. Many have asked me how long I spend preparing for each message. This is a difficult question to answer. Every book you read aids in preparing for preaching, whether we are speaking of commentaries, sermons, or even general history. Some sermons I might literally spend many hours preparing. Other times perhaps not so much, not taking in account the body of things considered over the years. The pastor is to be ready in season and out of season, always prepared to teach and preach.

I think the greatest area in which a pastor labors is in his soul over the people. How many hours are spent praying? How many hours are spent peace making? Many times the labor of the pastor is greatly appreciated. Some times, however, his labor goes unnoticed. Sometimes a pastor will labor to preach and teach through a specific area, only to feel as if his efforts have fallen largely upon deaf ears.

There is a certain degree of stress laid upon men in ministry. First, they must take great care to good teachers. The book of James states that not many should desire teach, knowing that they receive the greater condemnation. A careful teacher ponders his great responsibility to properly teach the Scriptures. Secondly, they are laboring over the souls of the people. Any genuine shepherd realizes great anguish of soul over those who appear to be drifting away. He prays diligently for the conversion of those who show little evidence of saving grace. He is ready always to rejoice with the rejoicing, to weep with the weeping. Thirdly, He is constantly aware of biblical qualification of the office, knowing that he must be blameless and have a good reputation among those even outside the church. Sometimes even the pastor feels tempted to punch that stiffnecked church member who insists in tearing down his family!

The office of the pastorate is a good work. We find our source of inspiration in the knowledge that we are laboring for God and that He blesses those who serve well. It would be nice if those we minister to would appreciate our labor, yet we know that we are not laboring as men pleasers. (Indeed, what pastor has not lost a friend, or even many, for merely insisting upon what the Word teaches?) People are generally pleased to pay the carpenter for the new kitchen installed. They are excited about their purchases at the mall and gladly hand over the cash (maybe the credit card these days.) Yet many resist the notion of paying the pastor, even though they are responsible for things of eternal weight, namely watching over the souls of the people.

I think the church would do well overall in being aware of being thankful and considerate of the labor of others. For many years I served in the church as a deacon, faithfully doing what I could to be helpful. In all those years, I only once had someone come to me and thank me for the labor I put into the office. We tend to assume and take for granted the labor of those around us, whether it be our pastors, our spouse, our parents, our children etc.

Don't forget to encourage one another, even your pastor from time to time!

In Christ,

Bob

Pastor,
Faith Baptist Church

VirginiaHuguenot · #10 (**permalink**) 10-02-2008, 06:16 AM

London Provincial Assembly on the Gospel Ministry

SolaScriptura · #11 (**permalink**) 10-02-2008, 06:33 AM

I've known many hardworking, diligent, proactive pastors... these men earn their pay and then some.

But I'd be lying if I denied knowing more than a few lazy pastors who basically sit around reading - sometimes studying, sometimes just novels - sometimes watching their kids (because their wife works outside the home) - sometimes watching their grandkids.... outsourcing all their counseling, etc.... and then telling the congregation about how hard their job is and how much they "labor over their souls."

Sorry pastors on this board... I know there are diligent ministers, but I've personally known too many lazy ones to just presume that a minister is earning his keep. (I'm sorry, spending a few hours collecting anecdotes and copying sermon points from other preachers to deliver a 30 minute sermon once a week doesn't, in my mind, warrant the ridiculous salaries I've seen.)

Anyway, If I was in a church I'd want the pastor held accountable for how he spends his time.

But then again, I'm writing as one who goes above and beyond in the execution of his ministry sometimes causing great personal and familial hardship in a field in which many of my peer "ministers" look at me like I'm crazy for doing so.

There's people who whine about being busy because they're weak and/or poor time managers... and then there's people who are busy.

ReformedWretch · #12 (**permalink**) 10-02-2008, 06:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Barnpreacher

Quote:

Originally Posted by KenPierce

Why do we get burned out? Probably a lot of reasons, but at least one is, "we care about those we care about more than those we care about care about themselves." In short, we grieve for the souls of our people, morethan they care about their own, in many cases. Ponder that one for awhile!!!

Amen! This is so true in my own pastoral experience. I wake up every morning, not just carrying the burdens of my wife and two daughters but carrying those of a whole church as well.

People say, "Well, just turn it over to Jesus." I understand that, but the undershepherd still must care for the sheep. And a big portion of that is caring for their souls, their disconcern for their own spiritual lives, and simply carrying their burdens on our hearts.

I am not nor have I been a pastor, but as a house parent (the 15 years I was one) that feeling just about killed me!

Barnpreacher · #13 (**permalink**) 10-02-2008, 08:42 AM

I just received this email this morning from Truth for Life, and I thought it was fitting for this thread.

Quote:

Since October is Pastor Appreciation Month, I thought it would be fitting to share this word on preaching from William Taylor in the 19th century:

“Let it never be forgotten, then, that he who would rise to eminence and usefulness in the pulpit, and become ‘wise in winning souls,’ must say of the work of the ministry, ‘This one thing I do.’ He must focus his whole heart and life upon the pulpit. He must give his days and his nights to the production of those addresses by which he seeks to convince the judgments, and move the hearts, and elevate the lives of his hearers.

…In the opinion of the multitudes, the life of a minister is one of ease and leisure. They see him only in the pulpit; and as they mark the apparent ‘abandon’ of his manner, and listen to the easy cadence of his speech, they think that it has cost him little…. But try it, and you will discover that he has acquired that graceful ease only by long and laborious training, and that, for all so simple as it appears to be, he is training every muscle to its utmost, and the whole man is putting forth his energy.”

Richard Baxter said, “It is no small matter to stand up in the face of the congregation, and to deliver a message of salvation or damnation, as from the living God, in the name of the Redeemer. It is no easy matter to speak so plain, that the most ignorant may understand us; and so seriously that the deadest heart may feel us, and so convincingly that those who contradict us may be silenced!”

This month, may I encourage you to encourage the one who labors in the Word and in doctrine on your behalf on a regular basis?

With my love in the Lord Jesus,
Alistair

biggandyy · #14 (**permalink**) 10-02-2008, 09:04 AM

My experience is the pastor usually needs to worry about the leaking faucet in the ladies restroom and making sure the furnace gets inspected and the mail is picked up and the new family is greeted at the door and check to see if the flowers are delivered to the funeral home and and and and and...

It isn't so much that the pastor is "lazy" but that the Deacon Board and the Trustee Board and the Deaconesses and everyone else is lazy. I can't tell you the times I've come into the church to change some light bulbs or do something else to find our pastor there changing a thermostat or sweeping up some debris from the children's program that day.

These are things that should not even have to cross his mind much less take care of. That is why there is a Trustee Board and a Deacon Board and so on, to allow the pastor the time to pray and study and visit the sick and go door knocking and all the things he NEEDS to do.

So no, the pastor isn't overworked when the rest of the congregation realizes that the church building is THEIR church building and not his. When they realize the ministry of the church is THEIR ministry and not his.

I realize that usually 20% of the membership usually performs 80% of the work and giving but sometimes I want to grab folks by the ears and see how far I can toss them into the creek. Only sometimes. The other times is when I want to get REALLY upset

Pergamum · #15 (**permalink**) 10-02-2008, 09:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SolaScriptura

I've known many hardworking, diligent, proactive pastors... these men earn their pay and then some.

But I'd be lying if I denied knowing more than a few lazy pastors who basically sit around reading - sometimes studying, sometimes just novels - sometimes watching their kids (because their wife works outside the home) - sometimes watching their grandkids.... outsourcing all their counseling, etc.... and then telling the congregation about how hard their job is and how much they "labor over their souls."

Sorry pastors on this board... I know there are diligent ministers, but I've personally known too many lazy ones to just presume that a minister is earning his keep. (I'm sorry, spending a few hours collecting anecdotes and copying sermon points from other preachers to deliver a 30 minute sermon once a week doesn't, in my mind, warrant the ridiculous salaries I've seen.)

Anyway, If I was in a church I'd want the pastor held accountable for how he spends his time.

But then again, I'm writing as one who goes above and beyond in the execution of his ministry sometimes causing great personal and familial hardship in a field in which many of my peer "ministers" look at me like I'm crazy for doing so.

There's people who whine about being busy because they're weak and/or poor time managers... and then there's people who are busy.

Hey brother,

You use this phrase, "I'm writing as one who goes above and beyond in the execution of his ministry sometimes causing great personal and familial hardship in a field in which many of my peer "ministers" look at me like I'm crazy for doing so."

Could you elaborate on this?

I do not know what "above and beyond" means. When do we ever even succeed in meeting our duties - maybe in an OER, but not before God.

I always feel as if I am lacking or not doing enough

PUPOSE OF MY POSTING: the purpose of this post - since much of what I do is give hospitality, counsel, and talk...hardly things that callous the hands, i feel over-worked but when viewed objectivley it seems that I do very little.

Also, I just read several surveys about pastors self-reporting about work and family issues, and almost all say that they are over-worked....which made me wonder, since everyone in the US probably would report the same thing. Instead of pitying the pastor who is blessed to be able to read and study Scriptures, I felt pity for those who labor in dead-end jobs...

I also have met pastors who "seem" to spend a great time in inactivity but report that they "labour" and "ache" over their people throughout the week.

And this month I have chiefly talked, counseled, etc, often in informal settings - which hardly seems like work (but oh, I am so tired afterwards).

Also, I know several pastors whose chief employment is sermon-crafting and they do not do much vistation (one man told me he spends 30 hours for each hour of preaching, and he preaches Sunday morning and Sunday night to a "crowd" of 50.

So, I am tryng to come to terms with what exactly constitutes "meeting our duties" and what constitutes "over-work" in the pastorate, since when we self-report on surveys, we tend to answer in ways that benefit ourselves.

....Maybe I've just been reading too many statistics on Pastors from the Barna Group, heh?

Pergamum · #16 (**permalink**) 10-02-2008, 09:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Barnpreacher

I just received this email this morning from Truth for Life, and I thought it was fitting for this thread.

Quote:

Since October is Pastor Appreciation Month, I thought it would be fitting to share this word on preaching from William Taylor in the 19th century:

“Let it never be forgotten, then, that he who would rise to eminence and usefulness in the pulpit, and become ‘wise in winning souls,’ must say of the work of the ministry, ‘This one thing I do.’ He must focus his whole heart and life upon the pulpit. He must give his days and his nights to the production of those addresses by which he seeks to convince the judgments, and move the hearts, and elevate the lives of his hearers.

…In the opinion of the multitudes, the life of a minister is one of ease and leisure. They see him only in the pulpit; and as they mark the apparent ‘abandon’ of his manner, and listen to the easy cadence of his speech, they think that it has cost him little…. But try it, and you will discover that he has acquired that graceful ease only by long and laborious training, and that, for all so simple as it appears to be, he is training every muscle to its utmost, and the whole man is putting forth his energy.”

Richard Baxter said, “It is no small matter to stand up in the face of the congregation, and to deliver a message of salvation or damnation, as from the living God, in the name of the Redeemer. It is no easy matter to speak so plain, that the most ignorant may understand us; and so seriously that the deadest heart may feel us, and so convincingly that those who contradict us may be silenced!”

This month, may I encourage you to encourage the one who labors in the Word and in doctrine on your behalf on a regular basis?

With my love in the Lord Jesus,
Alistair

Your quote says: "He must give his days and his nights..."

I have been giving two setsof advice about the ministry: (1) To be diligent and hard-working, and also (2) to get adequate rest and preserve one's nights for his kids.

What were the family lives like for these pastors who gave up their days and nights? How much time did they spend with kids? HOw did they balance urgency of dealing with souls with rest and care of the body?

jd.morrison · #17 (**permalink**) 10-02-2008, 10:08 AM

I think pastors are over-worked simply because what they do is not considered work. Because of this, non-biblical things get continually added to the list of things a pastor is supposed to do... A lot of the duties of the elders and the church itself are unloaded onto the "pack mule" the pastor...

SolaScriptura · #18 (**permalink**) 10-02-2008, 10:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pergamum

Hey brother,

You use this phrase, "I'm writing as one who goes above and beyond in the execution of his ministry sometimes causing great personal and familial hardship in a field in which many of my peer "ministers" look at me like I'm crazy for doing so."

Could you elaborate on this?

I do not know what "above and beyond" means. When do we ever even succeed in meeting our duties - maybe in an OER, but not before God.

I always feel as if I am lacking or not doing enough...

No problem. Let me give two examples of things that received "You need to slow it down a bit" admonitions from my peer (and supervisory!) chaplains...

1. We were away on vacation. Non-refundable reservations paid for, tickets bought, etc... Someone died. I brought my family back so that I could help with the situation. Now, mind you, there are tons of chaplains here who could have helped in my absence. But this was one of my people. Anyway, my wife was very upset, as were my children. I don't know if I'll do that again.

(Some of you pastors may think, "Big deal?" But I have now encountered FOUR instances in which the pastor was on vacation and someone - in one case a "pillar" of the church - and he basically said, "Sorry.... call this person." In another case, a person passed away a few days before a scheduled vacation and this pastor didn't change his personal plans at all. He simply directed the family to someone else for the funeral, etc.)

2. Unlike many pastors I know, I have no "black out" periods where I can't/won't answer my phone or make myself available. I cannot count the number of times I've come in to counsel on weekends or in the middle of the night, and I take absolutely no compensatory time off. Even when I preach, I don't take Monday off. About a month ago I came off a 6 month preaching rotation - that in itself was an eye catcher because so many chaplains complain if they have to preach more than once a month - and because I don't take time off on Monday, to "recharge" myself after spending myself on Sunday, there were many many weeks in which I worked 7 days a week doing this ministry.

Anyway, it is practices like this that have led some of my peers to advise me to slow down, etc.

Maybe they're right. Maybe I'm trying to do too much too fast.

I really struggle with Reformed Pastor because on the one hand I agree that I should pour myself into this calling, but on the other hand, Baxter makes it sound like I should run my family through the wringer - like I've done on occasion.

satz · #19 (**permalink**) 10-02-2008, 10:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pergamum

Your quote says: "He must give his days and his nights..."

I have been giving two setsof advice about the ministry: (1) To be diligent and hard-working, and also (2) to get adequate rest and preserve one's nights for his kids.

What were the family lives like for these pastors who gave up their days and nights? How much time did they spend with kids? HOw did they balance urgency of dealing with souls with rest and care of the body?

I don't know if you wanted pastor's responses, but since you put this in general discussions, I thought I would venture to give my opinion.

Psalms 127:1-2 <<A Song of degrees for Solomon.>> Except the LORD build the house, they labour in vain that build it: except the LORD keep the city, the watchman waketh but in vain. It is vain for you to rise up early, to sit up late, to eat the bread of sorrows: for so he giveth his beloved sleep.

I think Psalm 127:1-2 is pretty appropriate to the question you raised as it is to other situations. I think there is still a time for a pastor to "go to sleep" or to spend time with his family, or to rest. Probably moreso than with other work or projects, a pastor will always have more to do or things to take care off, but I think the bible would teach that he should do his reasonable best, reserve time for his own rest/family and trust God for the results.

I guess that does not mean there is not time for extremely hard work, but simply because the work is never ending does not mean, from what I can tell from the bible, that God requires a pastor to never rest, or take time for his family (in fact, to an extent his family must be a priority, for 1 Tim 3 says that caring and ruling his family well is a requsite to be a pastor).

Davidius · #20 (**permalink**) 10-02-2008, 10:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by satz

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pergamum

Your quote says: "He must give his days and his nights..."

I have been giving two setsof advice about the ministry: (1) To be diligent and hard-working, and also (2) to get adequate rest and preserve one's nights for his kids.

What were the family lives like for these pastors who gave up their days and nights? How much time did they spend with kids? HOw did they balance urgency of dealing with souls with rest and care of the body?

I don't know if you wanted pastor's responses, but since you put this in general discussions, I thought I would venture to give my opinion.

Psalms 127:1-2 <<A Song of degrees for Solomon.>> Except the LORD build the house, they labour in vain that build it: except the LORD keep the city, the watchman waketh but in vain. It is vain for you to rise up early, to sit up late, to eat the bread of sorrows: for so he giveth his beloved sleep.

I think Psalm 127:1-2 is pretty appropriate to the question you raised as it is to other situations. I think there is still a time for a pastor to "go to sleep" or to spend time with his family, or to rest. Probably moreso than with other work or projects, a pastor will always have more to do or things to take care off, but I think the bible would teach that he should do his reasonable best, reserve time for his own rest/family and trust God for the results.

I guess that does not mean there is not time for extremely hard work, but simply because the work is never ending does not mean, from what I can tell from the bible, that God requires a pastor to never rest, or take time for his family (in fact, to an extent his family must be a priority, for 1 Tim 3 says that caring and ruling his family well is a requsite to be a pastor).

I think the question has more to do with what a pastor is doing when he's not spending that time with his family or resting.

In other words, assuming that pastors are allowed to have families and not work themselves to death, is the job of a pastor to sit in his study and read all the time? What is his 8 to 5, especially if he's not working another job to make up for financial lack? Are study and sermon preparation his quintessential responsibilities? I use this example because it's what Pergie mentioned in the OP.

The question obviously doesn't apply to all pastors, but I would agree that it is particularly relevant for our Reformed world.

LawrenceU · #21 (**permalink**) 10-02-2008, 10:52 AM

Brothers, it is a tough ministry to which we are called. I've been doing it long enough, not that I'm a geezer or anything, to see some of my colleagues and the outcome of various approaches to ministry. I've noticed that most of those who wear themselves to a nub have families that are a tragedy. We must remember that our families are our first ministry. Nowhere is Scripture does it say that we are to put the congregation above them. They are our first congregation. God doesn't take our place if we are absent.

satz · #22 (**permalink**) 10-02-2008, 10:55 AM

Davidius,

Hmmm... I was primarily responding to the post I quoted.

I didn't think my post was that irrelevant to the OP though, since the OP contained quite a few different questions.

Davidius · #23 (**permalink**) 10-02-2008, 10:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by satz

Hmmm... I was primarily responding to the post I quoted.

I didn't think my post was that irrelevant to the OP though, since the OP contained quite a few different questions.

Indeed. Sorry if my post was totally irrelevant.

satz · #24 (**permalink**) 10-02-2008, 10:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Davidius

Quote:

Originally Posted by satz

Hmmm... I was primarily responding to the post I quoted.

I didn't think my post was that irrelevant to the OP though, since the OP contained quite a few different questions.

Indeed. Sorry if my post was totally irrelevant.

No offense taken.

Which is not to say your post was irrelevant...

Pergamum · #25 (**permalink**) 10-02-2008, 11:01 AM

BEN:

Yes, thanks brother:

I have a shocking confession: I don't like the book "Reformed Pastor" [waiting for the toe-maters to hit me now].

Cannot we write something more fitting today about how a pastor ought to operate? Of course, the principles would mostly be the same, but phones, emails, etc were topics that Baxter completely forgot about mentioning!

Any advice on newer manuals for pastors?

Ben,

How does your wife and kids fare?

I say this because usually I am gone every couple weeks for multi-day-week interior treks. Also, I have no "black-out" days either because everyone knows where I live and the last 3 nights had to finally turn people away so I could put my kids to bed. At my son's birthday party, we ended up treating malaria, pneumonia, a spider bite causing cellulitis and a cough.

Hold that pinyata and give me more Cipro!

This was all well and good when my wife was healthy - she is very independant and strong-willed and can run the home on her own. But now she is sick and must depend more on me until she heals (wow, poor soul...). So, I am in need of re-evaluation of my work and rest.

If I worked at secular employment in the US, my wife would have used up all her sick days already and me too, since I need to be home taking care of the kids.

Plus, I can "work from home" so to speak when the folks that support me cannot, but they labor with their hands for 8-12 hours per day.

What is more, since we have been sick, we have gotten a flood of emails (and a flood of packets is on the way....we;''ll probably get them at Christmas) because people are sacrifically given out of their love to us and doubling up becuase we are sick. Plus, now we are in financial crisis in the US and my supporters are cinching their belts while the exchange rate has actually improved for me. So, in short, I have been reflecting on how good we have it lately.

YES, on one sideof the issue, we need to heed the advice to guard our familie. On the other side of the issue, WHAT IS OUR 8-5 jobs? I do not think reading and sitting in a study every day suffices.

From the NT, those guys seemed a lot more action oriented. I don't see that they spend 20 hours per week reading during the day and 30 hours per sermon preached.

While I am glad for pastors giving adequate preparation to their sermons, a pastors job is to pastor and not merely deliver 2 one-hour monologues per week, yet many calvinistic churches I know have pastors that are strong in preaching and weak in visitation or other works besides sermons. It almost appears that a man could be a good man, a lover of souls, and invest much time with people, but if he is a poor preacher then he is a failure totally - and yet at the most, most preachers preach a max of 120 minutes per week.

Whitefield · #26 (**permalink**) 10-02-2008, 11:06 AM

Maybe all pastors (and churches) should pay attention to what Jethro told Moses in Exodus 18:13-26.

shackleton · #27 (**permalink**) 10-02-2008, 11:38 AM

I guess it is like every profession, there are people that are good at it and there are those that are not. There are ones that do more than their share then there are those who goof off most of the time.

What do you call the person who finishes last in medical school....Doctor!

Pergamum · #28 (**permalink**) 10-02-2008, 11:55 AM

But if we hold right doctrine, you think we would also hold right practice!? Do you mean to say that we could learn better ministry habits from Rick Warren in regards to personal contact and use of time?

SolaScriptura · #29 (**permalink**) 10-02-2008, 11:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pergamum

Ben,

How does your wife and kids fare?

Your wife sounds a lot like mine - strong willed, independent, able to manage, etc...

I'd feel more comfortable discussing this in an elders only forum, but she's doing just "ok." She's getting tired of the multiple calls every night (almost inevitably at dinner!) and me having to get up in the middle of the night, etc.
She doesn't mind me working long hours, per se, and she certainly doesn't mind my pay, but she does mind me coming home and not being able to "be" at home... if that makes any sense.

I'm trying to take the advice of others to back off some of my activities. For instance, I've ceased participating in every airborne operation that comes along on which folks from my unit are jumping. Now I just do once every other month. At first this irritated my commander, but I was doing it every week and that was a big drain on my time (not to mention my body!).

I've started referring folks to the on-call chaplain for things that come up on the weekends... but I still have to take the initial call.

But anyway, I am trying to bring things into balance. I'm not at a "crisis" yet, and that is something I will strive wholeheartedly to avoid!

That still doesn't negate my contention that many - or for less offense, "some" - pastors have a very low threshold for what they can handle and what they consider "busy" or "stressful." Or, in the name of taking care of themselves and/or their family, they put in far fewer hours than those in their congregations.

FrielWatcher · #30 (**permalink**) 10-02-2008, 12:01 PM

A lot of good responses. Glad to hear them all. I have a childhood friend who is a pastor in the ELCA up near Duluth. He has two churches - about 35 in attendance at each every Sunday. So total parishoners - about 150 all together. The thing that makes him overworked is that his time management blows. Every Saturday I talk to him he is only about halfway through making his sermon. He has a lot of books but isn't a reader (trait from his dad to collect books). I don't think that they keep in incredibly busy but he is always stressed as if he is overworked. But, some weeks are worse than other related to workload.

Like Erick Bohndorf stated, there are those who are good and those who aren't. The ELCA really blows at preparing its candidates for effective ministry because the ELCA has their own agenda - keeping the parishoners stupid but to keep 'em coming back because it pays the bills. Of all the ELCA churches that I have been to, it is the same old topical this and that from the pulpit with no conviction. So, they don't need to be overworked because I don't believe that the ELCA pastors I have met are studying too hard for their preaching. Off my soapbox about the ELCA. (Makes me so mad.)

Yet, I do know pastors that work very hard, and some may be overworked but it is dependent from pastor to pastor. I thank you all for the hard work you do shepherding your flock. Just think of that (because I just did), how many pastors do you think would be willing to take up shepherding for a few years? Can they handle sheep? (I am really thinking about ELCA pastors again) If they can't master sheep, how can they win over men to Christ?

Reepicheep · #31 (**permalink**) 10-02-2008, 01:00 PM

Laziness is a sin. No believer should be lazy.

If a pastor is lazy, it's not because the pastorate is an easy or non-labor intensive job, it's because he is lazy.

Curt · #32 (**permalink**) 10-02-2008, 03:14 PM

When I'm not having a pity party (which, thankfully doesn't happen TOO often), I tend to think of myself as "appropriately busy." As pastor of a smaller congregation, I do most of the teaching, almost all the preaching, the secretarial work, some of the toilet cleaning, and whatever else is needed.

I wish that I could truthfully be accused of spending a lot of time reading. I marvel at how much reading is alleged to take place by members of this board. Reading is fundamental! It is part of our "keeping up." This includes newspapers, cultural and societal commentary, history, politics, etc.

Brad · #33 (**permalink**) 10-02-2008, 03:43 PM

Curt, some of these guys are human page scanners. It's impossible to keep up for us non-cyborg types.

**py3ak** · #34 (**permalink**) 10-02-2008, 05:00 PM

Pergamum, in some ways I have been where you are. The whole time we were in Mexico I didn't feel like I was working. But it was not because there was no effort. To visit four people could easily mean a 12-hour day, with scanty and irregular meals, and some serious walking involved in that (I didn't have a car at all). Just GETTING to one hospital could take 90 minutes, and for a long time I had to go there every week. But since it didn't feel like work, I did feel badly for people who were driving a taxi 10 hours a day for peanuts, or people doing manual labor.
But preparing sermons is work. It's creative work, like writing poetry, so of course it never has that satisfying feel of accomplishment like when you finish changing the last faulty ballast in a store and put the ladder back on top of the truck. Talking to people seems cushy, but listening and answering charitably and intelligently, even if you enjoy it, serves to wear you out.
The point is, you shouldn't feel guilty for not engaging in manual labor. And it is impossible to make hard-and-fast rules about quantities of time, etc., etc. The reason is that everyone's strength varies, and what takes it out of me might invigorate you, and vice versa. But if you don't take care of your family, realistically, you're not going to last where you are. It's not a sacrifice to rule your own family well: it's a necessary precondition for God-glorifying ministry.
What you can do is to calculate how much time you would have to spend every week in order to do everything you feel like you should do. It's probably more than 150. But you can't do that much, so you have to prioritize. The priorities get done (postponed in case of emergency but still done), and the non-priorities wait for a convenient opportunity --maybe when your son is 14 he'll be able to do them! But if the people you are working with have come to love you, and are confident that you will help them, even if you are able to spend more leisure time reading (which as a minister that is part of your responsibilities anyway) than someone else, I think you can be confident that you have not given in to idleness.

C.S. Lewis didn't know how to answer the question how many hours he worked in a day, because what he did for work and what he did for recreation was the same thing (read books). That doesn't mean he didn't do good work (just read anything he wrote to see that). It meant his life didn't easily fall into a repeatable schedule. Ministering overseas is going to be more like that. If your sermons are true, if your counsel is wise, if your hospitality is open-handed, if your medical treatments are helpful, if your prayers are fervent, you are doing what you need to do; don't let guilt bog you down or sidetrack you.

**DMcFadden** · #35 (**permalink**) 10-02-2008, 05:05 PM

What a interesting thread!

During my 33 years of ministry, 22 were spent in local church ministry and 11 in a parachurch executive role. Permit me a few observations from both sides of the pew.

* Pastors in America typically average 55-56 hours work per week. That is nothing any more or less significant than many other similarly educated professionals.

* Much of the issue of "overwork" has to do with the condition of the road rather than the miles on the odometer. Serving as a full time associate pastor in a congregation of 200 back in the early '70s, was much different from trying to build a church from 35 to 110 or as senior pastor of the congregation with 500 coming on a Sunday. Today, I spend my time dealing with attorneys, investment bankers, architects, staff issues, ceremonial occasions, disgruntled residents and their equally disgruntled families, sessions with industry regulators, more meetings than one can count, etc. The "stress" of trying to pull off a $45 million project in this economy is killing me! Nevertheless, my current ministry is the easiest of my life (compared to the pastoral ones). The contentious congregation with 500 attending on a Sunday and about 1,000 opinions on how better to do my job was the longest root canal (10+ years) of my life!

My respect for pastors is unbridled. Yes, there are lazy ones as Ben suggested (although many pastors I know consider military chaplains the ultimate gold brickers of the clergy universe.

Guess it all depends on which stereotypes you believe.

). But, all in all, they are a diligent, Godly, hard working lot who deserve more honor (and honoraria) than they receive.

* My "take" on pastors (as a class) is that many of them suffer from self-inflicted wounds. Maybe the Reformed brethren are better educated in business and finance than the majority of my Baptist colleagues. But, a good deal of the problems pastors in my tribe have had in their congregations traces to sheer ignorance of (and neglect for) sound business practices and skills (e.g., something as simple as being able to read and differentiate the balance sheet from the other financial statements). Just remembering "luo, lueis, luei, luomen, luete, luousin," having read Bavinck, or being able to parse rare hithpael forms in the Pentatuech does not a minister make. Believe it or not, even if you are a TE, Sr. Pastor, Lead Pastor (whatever your nomenclature calls you), you have GOT to know something about management, leadership, and finance. The current fascination with the MBA/CEO pastor is disgusting. But, that does not excuse an obscurantistic head in the sand when it comes to the business side of ministry.

jwithnell · #36 (**permalink**) 10-02-2008, 07:12 PM

Since coming to faith, I have been blessed by three wonderful pastors. I cannot imagine the responsibility that these men carry! And their wives take on so much as well. Thanks to all of you who labor faithfully!

R. Scott Clark · #37 (**permalink**) 10-03-2008, 10:22 AM

Mon - Prayer and rest from Sunday. 5 phone calls re church (crisis brewing with an elder), 4 txt msgs. One hospital call. Stayed away from email.

Tues - Prayer and start translating Greek for AM sermon and Hebrew for PM sermon. Read chapters before and after passages in ESV. Worked on accordance for an hour figuring out word usage. Answer 12 phone calls, 3 txt msgs, and 20 emails. One pastoral visit. Session meeting in the evening. One of the elders is really unhappy. Late: Fixed church webpage (our "webmaster" transferred to another city).

Wed - Prayer and finish translating passages and begin sermon outlines. Answer 10 phone calls. One house visit. One hospital visit. Squeeze in 30 minute run to the local seminary library. Answer 10 emails and 7 txt msgs. Lunch with a visitor to church. Prep for address to the Rotary Club next week. Work on bulletin. Convene church anniversary committee. Computer is acting up.

Thurs - Prayer and prep for evening Bible Study. Write church news letter. Go to Office Depot. Call repairman for that broken light switch in the narthex. Do tax forms for 501 c 3 status. Ask the grounds committee to get the lawn mowed before Sunday. Answer 6 phone calls and 3 txt msgs. Long lunch with a disgruntled elder. Committee work for Presbytery on the latest stupid theological problem in the conservative Presbyterian churches because no one reads the catechism or confession any more. Squeeze in a little sermon prep.

5. Prayer. Fri - Finish sermon outline. Read 6 commentaries (3 for each passage) to make sure I didn't miss anything obvious. Started reading the latest stupid evangelical fad book so I could answer Mrs Jones question at Bible Study. Picked psalms for worship. Sent the bulletin to the pianist (we're not completely Reformed yet). Took computer to repair shop. Only 5 emails (using old, slow pc) and 5 txt msgs today. 4 phone calls. No emergencies. One nursing home visit. One late night phone call.

Sat - Prayer. Not happy with sermon outline. Re-worked it. Catechism class. Lunch at home. Took a call from Mrs Henry. She's upset with Mrs McElphatrick. Mowed the grass at church (the grounds committee didn't show up). A homeless fellow showed up and the afternoon was done connecting him with the shelter. 12 phone calls and 10 emails. One of our aging baby boomers wants a more "contemporary" service.

Sun- Prayer. Set up for catechism and church (communion). Adult Class. Bulletin was late for AM service. 5 guests for lunch (good day for visitors!). Reviewed notes for PM sermon. PM service - the pianist didn't show. Calvin would have been proud of us. Emergency session meeting; the elder is really unhappy. Don't know how many phone calls and txt msgs setting up the emergency session meeting.

--

This is a quickly drawn composite of what I remember from my years as a full-time pastor and what I hear from pastors and what I continue to experience as a volunteer associate pastor. Two of my strongest memories (pre-email) were driving and the phone. I was constantly in the car driving to see someone or pick up something. It was a year after went to the UK before I stopped jumping when the phone rang and that was before cell phones. The number of calls is probably conservative.

Yes, it's a little idealized. Five visitors? Psalms only? Hey, it's my story and I get to tell it the way I want. Subtract the visitors, add a bad contemporary song or two and a 19th-century Methodist revival hymn and you're probably closer to reality. Mrs McElphatrick loves those revival hymns and her family is pretty important at church. If we lost them.....

***Semper Fidelis*** · #38 (**permalink**) 10-03-2008, 10:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by R. Scott Clark

Mon - Prayer and rest from Sunday. 5 phone calls re church (crisis brewing with an elder), 4 txt msgs. One hospital call. Stayed away from email.

Tues - Prayer and start translating Greek for AM sermon and Hebrew for PM sermon. Read chapters before and after passages in ESV. Worked on accordance for an hour figuring out word usage. Answer 12 phone calls, 3 txt msgs, and 20 emails. One pastoral visit. Session meeting in the evening. One of the elders is really unhappy. Late: Fixed church webpage (our "webmaster" transferred to another city).

Wed - Prayer and finish translating passages and begin sermon outlines. Answer 10 phone calls. One house visit. One hospital visit. Squeeze in 30 minute run to the local seminary library. Answer 10 emails and 7 txt msgs. Lunch with a visitor to church. Prep for address to the Rotary Club next week. Work on bulletin. Convene church anniversary committee. Computer is acting up.

Thurs - Prayer and prep for evening Bible Study. Write church news letter. Go to Office Depot. Call repairman for that broken light switch in the narthex. Do tax forms for 501 c 3 status. Ask the grounds committee to get the lawn mowed before Sunday. Answer 6 phone calls and 3 txt msgs. Long lunch with a disgruntled elder. Committee work for Presbytery on the latest stupid theological problem in the conservative Presbyterian churches because no one reads the catechism or confession any more. Squeeze in a little sermon prep.

5. Prayer. Fri - Finish sermon outline. Read 6 commentaries (3 for each passage) to make sure I didn't miss anything obvious. Started reading the latest stupid evangelical fad book so I could answer Mrs Jones question at Bible Study. Picked psalms for worship. Sent the bulletin to the pianist (we're not completely Reformed yet). Took computer to repair shop. Only 5 emails (using old, slow pc) and 5 txt msgs today. 4 phone calls. No emergencies. One nursing home visit. One late night phone call.

Sat - Prayer. Not happy with sermon outline. Re-worked it. Catechism class. Lunch at home. Took a call from Mrs Henry. She's upset with Mrs McElphatrick. Mowed the grass at church (the grounds committee didn't show up). A homeless fellow showed up and the afternoon was done connecting him with the shelter. 12 phone calls and 10 emails. One of our aging baby boomers wants a more "contemporary" service.

Sun- Prayer. Set up for catechism and church (communion). Adult Class. Bulletin was late for AM service. 5 guests for lunch (good day for visitors!). Reviewed notes for PM sermon. PM service - the pianist didn't show. Calvin would have been proud of us. Emergency session meeting; the elder is really unhappy. Don't know how many phone calls and txt msgs setting up the emergency session meeting.

--

This is a quickly drawn composite of what I remember from my years as a full-time pastor and what I hear from pastors and what I continue to experience as a volunteer associate pastor. Two of my strongest memories (pre-email) were driving and the phone. I was constantly in the car driving to see someone or pick up something. It was a year after went to the UK before I stopped jumping when the phone rang and that was before cell phones. The number of calls is probably conservative.

Yes, it's a little idealized. Five visitors? Psalms only? Hey, it's my story and I get to tell it the way I want. Subtract the visitors, add a bad contemporary song or two and a 19th-century Methodist revival hymn and you're probably closer to reality. Mrs McElphatrick loves those revival hymns and her family is pretty important at church. If we lost them.....

Hey! Where is answering a post on the Puritanboard in all of this?

Priorities!

**py3ak** · #39 (**permalink**) 10-03-2008, 04:50 PM

"Text messages" are code for "PuritanBoard arguments"!