This one may cause me to leave PCUSA - Gay Clergy

Grymir · #1 (**permalink**) 07-01-2008, 05:08 AM

Hi everybody. I'm serious for once in this thread. I ran across this - PCUSA Assembly Approves Deleting Gay Clergy Ban| Christianpost.com - I've been debating whether to stay or leave. I don't have many choices where I live. But this one really gets to me. This is even worse than Barth being quoted in a Sermon in a good way. What would y'all do. Is this a final straw issue to any of you?

JonathanHunt · #2 (**permalink**) 07-01-2008, 06:48 AM

It would be to me, yes. But there are many very solid believers (for example in the Church of England) for whom it does not seem to be.

toddpedlar · #3 (**permalink**) 07-01-2008, 07:41 AM

Tim -

I'm sure that for many, the 'last straw' is long ago passed in the PCUSA - women in the eldership and the pulpit. I would personally never be part of a church wherein the submission required of me as a member would be to women ruling in positions of authority over me.

That being said, if I WERE still part of such a congregation, this is just another sign of the fact that the PCUSA is a grievously unfaithful denomination. I couldn't stand it any longer if I were you. (but then in the Quad Cities there isn't much there, is there?) I don't envy your position, Tim. Will pray...

toddpedlar · #4 (**permalink**) 07-01-2008, 07:47 AM

I know there are no OPC, PCA, RPCNA, or URC churches anywhere near you in the Quad Cities, but there is a Reformed Baptist church (Sycamore Baptist Church) in East Moline - something of a drive to be sure, but I would check it out.

NaphtaliPress · #5 (**permalink**) 07-01-2008, 07:51 AM

Todd, why has then been no plants by any of these denoms I wonder; two small a demographic?

skellam · #6 (**permalink**) 07-01-2008, 07:52 AM

I have followed with dismay the most recent PCUSA General Assembly. It is very sad to see this denomination slipping further into lawlessness. They are not preaching the word faithfully and certainly not exercising church discipline rightly and, therefore, not exhibiting the marks of a true church. I think many congregations are starting to realize this and exiting to the EPC. Al Mohler had a good take on this whole thing.

toddpedlar · #7 (**permalink**) 07-01-2008, 07:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NaphtaliPress

Todd, why has then been no plants by any of these denoms I wonder; two small a demographic?

I don't know - the Quad Cities is quite a large area, so I don't know why there aren't any Reformed churches there (actually there are a couple RCA and perhaps a CRC there, but no 'tr' denominations). Eastern Iowa is EXTREMELY Catholic and Lutheran, though so breaking in is probably seen as very hard to do. It would be akin, perhaps, to trying to plant a Methodist Episcopal church in extreme Northwest Iowa or extreme Northwest Washington, both of which are EXTREMELY Dutch. There is an OPC congregation in Independence, quite a way from the Quad Cities (where Lon Wadkins is a member) and a PCA in Walker, not too far from Independence. The nearest congregations otherwise are in Des Moines.

It's quite a difficult situation in much of Iowa - and some of it has to do with demographic, but I do long for some reformed presence here, and for those in the Quads - it's sorely needed.

Backwoods Presbyterian · #8 (**permalink**) 07-01-2008, 08:05 AM

I do not want to be the bearer of the obvious but I know for a fact that the PC (USA) has been ordaining active and open homosexuals for a while now.

Also there is a RPCNA church in Washington, IA. As well as in Morning Sun, IA.

toddpedlar · #9 (**permalink**) 07-01-2008, 08:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Backwoods Presbyterian

I do not want to be the bearer of the obvious but I know for a fact that the PC (USA) has been ordaining active and open homosexuals for a while now.

Also there is a RPCNA church in Washington, IA. As well as in Morning Sun, IA.

They have been ordaining them, but now it's codified as a denomination-wide official policy that it's allowed - big difference there. Caveat, though - at present it's only at the GA level. In order for it to take effect, it must be ratified by (a majority of?) the presbyteries and then again at the next GA.

I didn't suggest the RP churches simply because they're an hour and a half or more from Davenport, but of course those are also options if the drive is acceptable.

Backwoods Presbyterian · #10 (**permalink**) 07-01-2008, 08:26 AM

I very recently emigrated out of the PC (USA) and know what you are saying is true. However, IMHO, I think there are more grevious things already codified in the Book of Confessions.

As far as the RP churches I figured they were too far but just wanted to make them known...

BobVigneault · #11 (**permalink**) 07-01-2008, 08:32 AM

What we are seeing now is just the logical and practical result of the failure to hold to the authority of Scripture many years ago. That should have been the last straw. Without the authority of God's Word then each church does what they 'feel' is right in their own eyes. Without the authority of Scripture there is no force that will turn back the march of human depravity.

Homos and women in the pulpit are not the shocking events, diminishing the Word of God to myth and pretexts is the shame of the church.

toddpedlar · #12 (**permalink**) 07-01-2008, 08:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Backwoods Presbyterian

I very recently emigrated out of the PC (USA) and know what you are saying is true. However, IMHO, I think there are more grevious things already codified in the Book of Confessions.

Van Til's analysis of the Confession of 1967 is priceless on that score; very succinct, and a good analysis of the death spiral the PCUSA has been in since (and before) Van Til's time.

Backwoods Presbyterian · #13 (**permalink**) 07-01-2008, 08:37 AM

Great minds think alike Todd. I had Van Til's analysis of '67 directly in mind.

KMK · #14 (**permalink**) 07-01-2008, 09:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BobVigneault

What we are seeing now is just the logical and practical result of the failure to hold to the authority of Scripture many years ago. That should have been the last straw. Without the authority of God's Word then each church does what they 'feel' is right in their own eyes. Without the authority of Scripture there is no force that will turn back the march of human depravity.

Homos and women in the pulpit are not the shocking events, diminishing the Word of God to myth and pretexts is the shame of the church.

I agree. I would also add that this is the logical course when a church refuses to take a stand against any kind of lust outside the covenant of marraige between a man and a woman. Once we wink at divorce and remarriage, for example, we start down a slippery slope.

A5pointer · #15 (**permalink**) 07-01-2008, 09:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BobVigneault

What we are seeing now is just the logical and practical result of the failure to hold to the authority of Scripture many years ago. That should have been the last straw. Without the authority of God's Word then each church does what they 'feel' is right in their own eyes. Without the authority of Scripture there is no force that will turn back the march of human depravity.

Homos and women in the pulpit are not the shocking events, diminishing the Word of God to myth and pretexts is the shame of the church.

Bob nailed it right on the head. There should be no surprise or shock as things spiral downward without an objective standard to appeal to. I also am without better options in my area. I choose to stay as our congregation is confessional and equally disgusted with the actions of our denomination. We are known in the area for this as many from Tenth in Philadelphia attend our services while vacationing in Ocean City. We are always discussing leaving as a congregation but just don't get to around to the pain it would be to do so. Some feel we can be witnesses and light to the denomination but I think there is no turning back for the PCUSA. Our Pastor looked very dejected when he returned from GA on Sunday. He seemed to have been hopeful that progress could be made but this GA seems to prove all is lost.

CaseyBessette · #16 (**permalink**) 07-01-2008, 09:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Grymir

I don't have many choices where I live.

Tim, actually, the OPC Presbytery of the Midwest is exploring the possibility of planting a church in the Quad Cities area (it lists "Bettendorf / Davenport"; see here, scroll down to the bottom where it says "Areas of Interest"). Our Regional Home Missionary is Rev. Jim Bosgraf and I highly recommend you contact him. There may already be other Reformed families meeting for Bible studies in your area (maybe, I don't know, but this is usually how plants start). Every individual and family seriously interested really helps and I'm sure he'd absolutely love to hear from you!

jaybird0827 · #17 (**permalink**) 07-01-2008, 10:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Grymir

Hi everybody. I'm serious for once in this thread. I ran across this - PCUSA Assembly Approves Deleting Gay Clergy Ban| Christianpost.com - I've been debating whether to stay or leave. I don't have many choices where I live. But this one really gets to me. This is even worse than Barth being quoted in a Sermon in a good way. What would y'all do. Is this a final straw issue to any of you?

The final straw for us 23 years ago was the effect of the reunion of the PCUS to the UPCUSA forming what is now the PC(USA). We were PCUS at the time. It was my responsibility as a husband and father for being under sound teaching.

The watershed issue at the time was women in the clergy and that they were also forcing acceptance women in the eldership. We actually had a woman in the congregation, married with two small children. She said she just didn't "feel called" to be a mother but she did "feel called" to the ministry. She was greatly aided and abetted by the minister as well as supported by her husband. We left for the PCA.

There is no way I would tolerate a ranting, raving, s*d*m*te as any lawfully ordained elder, let alone a lawfully ordained minister.

You're right. You've done what you can. You have fought the good fight. If it wasn't time to leave before, it is now.

DMcFadden · #18 (**permalink**) 07-01-2008, 10:21 AM

Tim,

I'm not the one to speak on this issue since I left my own mainline denom for the exact same reasons. For me, like Benjamin, there were other things about any mainline group that struck at the heart of the Gospel before the homosexual issue. However, it was a "straw that broke the camel's back" situation for us.

Mohler's comments are spot on:

Quote:

Meeting in San Jose, California, the Presbyterian Church USA, the liberal branch of American Presbyterianism, moved to approve homosexual clergy on June 27, 2008 -- a date that may well mark a final blow against biblical orthodoxy in that denomination.

Tim, I grew up in the ABC and the last two years after leaving have been exceedingly painful for me and for many of my other "lifer" colleagues. Still, we left as a judicatory (So. Cal./Az/Hawaii - 270 congregations) rather than as individual churches. But, the direction was clearly set and we were unwilling to live with it any longer.

And, yes, as Benjamin indicated, this is not the first time that the PCUSA ordained active homosexuals, merely the codifying of it. Most mainline groups have been doing it and looking the other way for some time.

In the ABC, our ruling board of 120 (or so) had at least two openly homosexual clergy on it, one who was on the executive committee, nominating committee, biennial program planning committee (2003 and 2005), and the search committee to select the General Secretary (top paid employee of the denom)! And, like the Corinthians, they were so proud of their tolerance and open mindedness.

So, for what it's worth, this date will probably go down as the day (if the 1967 confession didn't convince you already and the changes to the HC at this GA) when the PCUSA officially closed the door on pretending to be a biblical d