I have a friend that moved into my house with me and he and I are both follow reformed teaching. Although convinced that Calvinism is the only tenable position, my friend is always angry at God because of Calvinism. My friend's though process goes from 'God elected a certain people and sent Jesus to die for them' to 'it is possible that God could have elected more people' to 'it is then possible for God to have elected all people' to 'I am mad at God because he seems not good for not electing all people.'

My response tends to be that he is holding God to human standards of goodness and that, just as Arminians presuppose free-will to be such and such and then interpret the bible, he presupposes goodness to be such and such and then judges God accordingly.

Maybe it is true that it takes a divine understanding given by the HS in order to feel/understand that God is good for not electing all people but since God works through secondary causes, other than praying for him, does anyone have any advise on good ways to deal with someone that confesses reformed doctrine (depravity of man, election, limited atonement etc) and yet is in danger of hating God and rejecting him?

Thanks,
Matt

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Matt
Lay
Reformed
Wisconsin

For now, if he really doesn't love this God he claims loved him and died for him, he might be a merely intellectual believer. If its any consolation, he's probably a better candidate to become a biblical Christian than most non-believers or Arminians. Because he can read the Bible without trying to make it say something it doesn't. For now, he despises it, and might always. But at least he's not trying to make God into something that is easier for him to swallow, so that he can "believe" in him, and not hate him. How many times have we heard: "If I thought God was like that (meaning SOVEREIGN), I wouldn't love Him!"?

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Rev. Bruce G. Buchanan
ChainOLakes Presbyterian Church, CentralLake, MI


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You could remind him that typical rational human thinking which he seems to appeal to would not elect ANY. ANY that is from a hateful group of enemies. Then remind him that God in His election killed as an atoning sacrifice the only being that did love and obey Him. The Gospel light may shine in on his heart. This is the truth that should strike us as unfair not that God didn't elect all but that He elected any.

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Bruce
PCUSA
Ocean City NJ

The proof of God's goodness is not found in Election. The proof of God's goodness is the cross. God sent his son to suffer and die for sinners. That is all the proof we can ever need to prove God's goodness.

The cross also proves God's justice. However, to try and use any doctrine, to disprove God's justice, we would have to understand a system of justice that is above man's and God's. How can we put ourselves above the eternal judge in order to judge whether He is just? It's a logical impossibility.

All we prove in questioning God's justice is that we are arrogant child-gods and that we deserve his wrath unless he interrupts our willful arrogance and grants us repentance.

No man is condemned by the quantity of his sin but by the quality of God's holiness; no man is saved by the quantity of his own goodness but by the quality of God's mercy.

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Bob Vigneault (Bawb Vēēn-yo)
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Total absence of 'submission'! That hard word that causes many to read scripture and then decide which parts are or are not 'fair'!
Our default mode is our natural self is 'sin' or unbelief! Submission to a holy God brings us to desire Him no matter what the cost!

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N.L./ www.foundersbaptist.org
Spring, TX

I don't have anything profound to say, but this reminds me of a quote from Jonathan Edward's diary:

"From childhood up, my mind had been full of objections against the doctrine of God’s sovereignty, in choosing whom he would to eternal life, and rejecting whom he pleased; leaving them eternally to perish, and be everlastingly tormented in hell. It used to appear like a horrible doctrine to me. But I remember the time very well, when I seemed to be convinced, and fully satisfied, as to this sovereignty of God, and his justice in thus eternally disposing of [dealing with] men, according to his sovereign pleasure. But never could give an account, how, or by what means, I was, thus convinced, not in the least imagining at the time, nor a long time after, that there was any extraordinary influence of God’s Spirit in it but only that now I saw further, and my reason apprehended the justice and reasonableness of it. However, my mind rested in it; and it put an end to all those cavils and objections. And there has been a wonderful alteration in my mind, in respect to the doctrine of God's sovereignty, from that day to this; so that I scarce ever have found so much as the rising of an objection against it, in the most absolute sense, in God’s shewing mercy to whom he will show mercy, and hardening whom he will. God’s absolute sovereignty and justice, with respect to salvation and damnation, is what my mind seems to rest assured of, as much as of any thing that I see with my eyes, at least it is so at times. The doctrine has very often appeared exceeding pleasant, bright, and sweet. Absolute sovereignty is what I love to ascribe to God." (Jonathan Edwards, Selections [New York: Hill and Wang, 1962], pp. 58-59).

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Kim
Baptist
Cornerstone Baptist Church, Greenville, SC

Teach me Your way, O LORD;
I will walk in Your truth;
Unite my heart to fear Your name.
Psalm 86:11

I would consider asking your friend if he acknoweldges sin as a reality. Also if he considers justice a necessity. Generally, most people dislike child molestors and rapists...heck, bring up that molestor in Belgium that trapped his daughter for 27 years brutalizing her for years on end...what should God do with that man? People's sense of justice becomes a bit more "severe" when the contrast between good and evil is so stark.

I would consider also talking about these things "economically" as well...are others entitled to your friend's property? Must he share his belongings with others? May he set the ground rules for how his belongings are distributed if he chooses to share or are the ground rules set by the beneficiaries? etc.

He may agree with you economically, but still think that God is a big meanie...which is to demonstrate your friend is a sinner...he wants sovereignty over his stuff but doesn't grant God sovereignty over His creation...

But is your friend even *really* trying to grapple with these things? Is he really concerned about God not saving others? Clearly if he hates God, he sees that he's not saved himself...I would venture to say your friend's motivation isn't about God failing to be as nice as he is...your friend wants sovereignty over his own life. He wants to be God. Maybe your friend is saved...I don't know...but acknowledging Reformed theology as the only tenable position is not the same thing as faith.

Reason with your friend gently (i.e. debating this is impossible, usually...especially if he thinks your doctrine is correct), pray for him...invite him to study the Bible with you. If he studies with you, focus on God's covenantal relationship...how God distinguishes between peoples, sets up a holy people...God's jealousy for His people...judgements on those who oppose His people, etc....maybe if your friend considers God's business involves more than just "gettin' people saved" he'll see that election is just one component of God's glorious sovereignty.

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Craig French
Married and father of a beautiful daughter.
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Toledo, OH

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How different is the God of the Bible from the God of modern Christendom! The conception of Deity which prevails most widely today, even among those who profess to give heed to the Scriptures, is a miserable caricature, a blasphemous travesty of the Truth. The God of the twentieth century is a helpless, effeminate being who commands the respect of no really thoughtful man. The God of the popular mind is the creation of a maudlin sentimentality. The God of many a present-day pulpit is an object of pity rather than of awe-inspiring reverence.[1] To say that God the Father has purposed the salvation of all mankind, that God the Son died with the express intention of saving the whole human race, and that God the Holy Spirit is now seeking to win the world to Christ; when, as a matter of common observation, it is apparent that the great majority of our fellow-men are dying in sin, and passing into a hopeless eternity: is to say that God the Father is disappointed, that God the Son is dissatisfied, and that God the Holy Spirit is defeated. We have stated the issue baldly, but there is no escaping the conclusion. To argue that God is "trying His best" to save all mankind, but that the majority of men will not let Him save them, is to insist that the will of the Creator is impotent, and that the will of the creature is omnipotent. To throw the blame, as many do, upon the Devil, does not remove the difficulty, for if Satan is defeating the purpose of God, then, Satan is Almighty and God is no longer the Supreme Being.

A.W. PINK

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Psa 55:16 As for me, I will call upon God; and the LORD shall save me.
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I have not read the other posts, and I tried to post from my mobile earlier, but it gave me an error message. Suffice it to say, forgive me if someone else has already posted this or something similar.

God is merciful that He elected any, not mean that He did not elect all.

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Thanks, his problem is not lack of information since we go to a great church and talk about and read reformed theology together all the time. I think it might help him to know that Edwards also had trouble accepting the sovereignty of God.

Apparently, John Piper had a big problem with it too. Hated it.

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Andrew DeShazo, Deacon, Associate Reformed Presbyterian Church, Memphis, TN
"All of us stumble in many ways, but if anyone is never at fault in what he says, then he is mature, able to control his whole body."(James 3:2)

Thanks, do you happen to have any place I could find piper's struggle with this feeling?

No, I'm like a 4th-hand source on this info. I havn't read any Piper.

Bruce, you're talking about me in my youth. I believed he existed, I understood what Christ had done, I understood what sin was, what the law was, what my destiny would be apart from God. I just didn't want any part of it.

The way I resolved it was to have God go his way and I go mine. Two respectful beings agreeing to disagree. He owed me at least that for my dignity.

How I rejoice that God did not accept my "offer."

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Providence Reformed Baptist Church, Tacoma, WA

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This is not a joke. Look him in the eyes and say, "He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires. You will say to me then, "Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?" On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, "Why did you make me like this," will it? Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use? What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction? And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory, even us, whom He also called, not from among Jews only, but also from among Gentiles."

I think that would hit the nail on the head. He is setting himself above God which is foolish and "more righteous" than God. He may be offended initially but he should thank you for an appropriate verse - the medicine for the sickness.

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Bryan Wiley
Southern Baptist Theological Seminary
Reformed Baptist Church
Louisville, Kentucky

Thanks, that might help except it is one of his favorite passages. I speak to him often and (from reading lots of Edwards) I am fairly good at expounding on the terribleness and horrors of hell. One of his favorite things to do is argue against Arminians and often uses Romans 9. Maybe it would help him if I tried to convince him to start focusing on other doctrines than election and reprobation. Hmm...

Well, that shoots that down. Can't he apply that Scripture to his uber-righteousness? Hope he can deal with it, submit himself to God's choice and exclaim "Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and unfathomable His ways! For who has know the mind of the Lord or who became his counselor!"

You could point out to him how unsettling it is to live in God's universe and yet hate Him. Ask Him if he enjoys hating God and wants to stay that way. The answer will probably be negative. If you can, get him to cry out to God for a new heart, perhaps hypocritically at first. The act of doing so--of asking God to change him--could move him in the right direction.

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Mary Vanderkooi
Kale Heywott Church (KHC)
Soddo, Ethiopia

It might be more appropriate to say that he is angry at God for choosing as many as he did and this causes him to decide that God must not exist and then he figures if there is no God then what's the point of anything and he will stop going to work and start sinning and then by the next day he believes God exists again but I still think he is angry at him. He tries not to be angry at God but he can't really help it and since he doesn't want to stay angry at God in God's universe he jettisons God from his. So far I think my best realization from posting is that I should try to get him on another course for study. I might give him "History of the Work of Redemption" by Edwards. It has been a while but I think that was a pretty good book. I think overly focusing on systematics has a tendency to make one cold hearted, at least it does me.

I don't understand that part

Sadly, a merely intellectual Calvinism (which is no true calvinism) is not a mark of grace, and arguing against Arminianism is not a means of grace. Point him to Christ.

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Your friend sounds like he is in the process of thinking through all of these issues.

He might not hate God for long and he might not even hate God at present, he might just be working through these issues and loving teaching and reminders that the verse "God is love" is still true might keep him from reverting to atheism.

I see the psalmists sometimes express consternation at God. Your friend might be in such a state right now, "God, if you do elect people to alvation - why haven't you elected more." is also a valid questions that can accompany the very good questions of "God, if you do elect people to salvation, why did you elect ANY...and especially why did you elect me![if one is a believer]."

A PERSONAL ANECDOTE: I was an agnostic and I became convinced that it was either calvinism or atheism that must hold true.

After a time of struggle, Calvinism won out, but I asked many "impolite" questions during this time and I am glad that people LOVINGLY directed me to the truth and did not help me to harden my heart by casting me aside or consigning me to the pit of hell before my time.


Your friend might be in the same state I was in, so I will pray for this friend.......


...one's mind can quickly come to a conclusion but sometimes a little time is needed for the heart to catch up.

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