Linked Article shows Christianity in big trouble in US

R Harris · #1 (**permalink**) 07-16-2008, 02:19 PM

The following link to a blog posting by Richard Jones is a sad commentary on how hapless the "Church" has become in confronting the US culture and the kings of our government - and thus, how hopeless it is to expect real reformation in our lifetime

â€œEat, Meet and Retreatâ€ vs. The Real Thing

Why did the 57 denominations respond no (not returning the invite is basically a passive, unspoken no) to Wildmon's invitation? While Jones listed several possible motives, I think that cowardice has to rank up there high.

I believe one of the reasons that Christianity has become so inward in the last 100 years is that having a "private, personal faith" is so much easier than dealing with the tension, conflict, and even martyrdom that may result from pressing the crown rights of Jesus.

Jones' idea of homeschooling/Christian schooling turning things around will take at least two generations - and that is supposing that the children get and maintain their doctrine. But I think it goes without saying that there will be no quick turnaround.

In other threads, where I have lamented the major crises facing the Church and our nation, people have asked what exactly I would do. What Wildmon did was a first step, and we see the pathetic response he got.

From that point, I would get a radio ministry and start blasting away - calling out who needs to be called out, showing the false doctrine, and stating what needs to be done. While some may say that is dividing further, I would point out that we are already divided as much as it is, and that being "winsome" is not working. Church "leaders" simply are not responding and for the most part really don't care.

As I have stated in the past, one does not stop a juggernaut by throwing oneself in front of it. Wildmon also understands that it will take a massive, corporate effort that is in unison before we will really start to see change and the Spirit working.

TheocraticMonarchist · #2 (**permalink**) 07-16-2008, 02:24 PM

Home school? It'll probably be illeagel in two generations.

Jon Peters · #3 (**permalink**) 07-16-2008, 03:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by R Harris

The following link to a blog posting by Richard Jones is a sad commentary on how hapless the "Church" has become in confronting the US culture and the kings of our government - and thus, how hopeless it is to expect real reformation in our lifetime

â€œEat, Meet and Retreatâ€ vs. The Real Thing

Why did the 57 denominations respond no (not returning the invite is basically a passive, unspoken no) to Wildmon's invitation? While Jones listed several possible motives, I think that cowardice has to rank up there high.

I believe one of the reasons that Christianity has become so inward in the last 100 years is that having a "private, personal faith" is so much easier than dealing with the tension, conflict, and even martyrdom that may result from pressing the crown rights of Jesus.

Jones' idea of homeschooling/Christian schooling turning things around will take at least two generations - and that is supposing that the children get and maintain their doctrine. But I think it goes without saying that there will be no quick turnaround.

In other threads, where I have lamented the major crises facing the Church and our nation, people have asked what exactly I would do. What Wildmon did was a first step, and we see the pathetic response he got.

From that point, I would get a radio ministry and start blasting away - calling out who needs to be called out, showing the false doctrine, and stating what needs to be done. While some may say that is dividing further, I would point out that we are already divided as much as it is, and that being "winsome" is not working. Church "leaders" simply are not responding and for the most part really don't care.

As I have stated in the past, one does not stop a juggernaut by throwing oneself in front of it. Wildmon also understands that it will take a massive, corporate effort that is in unison before we will really start to see change and the Spirit working.

It's always possible that I just don't get it, but a massive corporate effort? Homeschooling? This is going to turn the country around? Nice try.

Could another reason for "church leaders" not responding simply be that they don't agree with the tactics of Wildmon?

I know I'm preaching to the choir for the most part but any change in this country, if indeed the Lord wills it, will begin in the local church, not in boycotts of corporations or in the polling booth.

jaybird0827 · #4 (**permalink**) 07-16-2008, 04:23 PM

I've had personal experience with the AFA and Mr. W. If we boycotted all the products he advocates boycotting, we'd starve, wear threadbare clothing and our house would become a pigsty.

I dumped them for that and for the frequent "financial" crises that created a need for you to send your money in right now.

Typical form letter -

"We've got to act now..."

One to three paragraphs beginning with the words "You see,"

"Please send a gift of __$25 __ $50 __ $75 " ... (your supposed to check a box."

And always a PS following the signature.

R Harris · #5 (**permalink**) 07-16-2008, 04:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jon Peters

It's always possible that I just don't get it, but a massive corporate effort? Homeschooling? This is going to turn the country around? Nice try.

Richard Jones is saying that about homeschooling, not me. As for the massive corporate effort, of course that is what it will take. How can it happen otherwise? Regarding the "convention" getting denominational leaders together, yes, I believe that is the first step. How else would you get things going?

Quote:

Could another reason for "church leaders" not responding simply be that they don't agree with the tactics of Wildmon?

I know I'm preaching to the choir for the most part but any change in this country, if indeed the Lord wills it, will begin in the local church, not in boycotts of corporations or in the polling booth.

Boycotts and the polling booth work only if everyone is in accord with the reason for the boycott and if everyone is on the same page with regard to how to vote. Then boycotts and elections could make an impact. Unfortunately, Christians are not of one mind on practically anything, so that is the reason they don't work.

Let me tell you a story. Back in 2006, A gentleman named Dave Melhalf ran for County Commissioner seat #1 in Oklahoma County. His opponent, the incumbent Jim Roth, is an avowed homosexual. Everyone knows it, it is no secret. Roth received tens of thousands of dollars in campaign contributions from all over the country, mostly coming from homosexual activist groups (now, why would they care about the Oklahoma County Commissioner seat? Yes, they do have an agenda). When Dave asked the mayor (Mick Cornett - a man who advertises himself as "strong, values oriented Christian) to endorse him, Mr. Cornett said no. Kirk Humphries, a wealthy businessman who ran for the US Senate in 2004 and an influential SBC member, backed Roth for the race and would have nothing to do with Dave.

In Dave's campaign literature, he made it known that he would rule righteously, and that Mr. Roth was indeed using his sexual preference to impact some of his decisions in office.

Dave was stunned at the email response he got. Hundreds of people calling themselves "evangelical Christians" sent him hateful emails, saying that he should have never brought Roth's homosexuality up in the campaign, that one's private life had nothing to do with public office, and that he was a bigot. It especially angers me that men like Cornett and Humphries can get away with what they did and did not do, and no repercussions from the Christian community.

That, my friend, is the sad state of affairs with much of evangelical Christianity right now.

[ PS. Roth, shortly after his 63% landslide victory over Dave, was appointed to the Corporation Commission, taking the vacated spot of Denise Bode. He was appointed by Governor Brad Henry, a deacon in an SBC church . . . . . . . . . . ]

Jon Peters · #6 (**permalink**) 07-16-2008, 05:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by R Harris

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jon Peters

It's always possible that I just don't get it, but a massive corporate effort? Homeschooling? This is going to turn the country around? Nice try.

Richard Jones is saying that about homeschooling, not me. As for the massive corporate effort, of course that is what it will take. How can it happen otherwise? Regarding the "convention" getting denominational leaders together, yes, I believe that is the first step. How else would you get things going?

The preaching of the gospel.

If this sounds sarcastic, it is not intended to be.

Backwoods Presbyterian · #7 (**permalink**) 07-16-2008, 05:13 PM

Of course any real effect would have to involve all the cloistered Calvinists in America getting out of their air-conditioned McMansions and engaging the culture head-on.

Jon Peters · #8 (**permalink**) 07-16-2008, 05:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by R Harris

Let me tell you a story. Back in 2006, A gentleman named Dave Melhalf ran for County Commissioner seat #1 in Oklahoma County. His opponent, the incumbent Jim Roth, is an avowed homosexual. Everyone knows it, it is no secret. Roth received tens of thousands of dollars in campaign contributions from all over the country, mostly coming from homosexual activist groups (now, why would they care about the Oklahoma County Commissioner seat? Yes, they do have an agenda). When Dave asked the mayor (Mick Cornett - a man who advertises himself as "strong, values oriented Christian) to endorse him, Mr. Cornett said no. Kirk Humphries, a wealthy businessman who ran for the US Senate in 2004 and an influential SBC member, backed Roth for the race and would have nothing to do with Dave.

In Dave's campaign literature, he made it known that he would rule righteously, and that Mr. Roth was indeed using his sexual preference to impact some of his decisions in office.

Dave was stunned at the email response he got. Hundreds of people calling themselves "evangelical Christians" sent him hateful emails, saying that he should have never brought Roth's homosexuality up in the campaign, that one's private life had nothing to do with public office, and that he was a bigot. It especially angers me that men like Cornett and Humphries can get away with what they did and did not do, and no repercussions from the Christian community.

That, my friend, is the sad state of affairs with much of evangelical Christianity right now.

[ PS. Roth, shortly after his 63% landslide victory over Dave, was appointed to the Corporation Commission, taking the vacated spot of Denise Bode. He was appointed by Governor Brad Henry, a deacon in an SBC church . . . . . . . . . . ]

I'm not sure I get the example but I would tend to vote for the one most qualified for the job. Is it unbiblical for a non-Christian or homosexual to hold a political office?

Pilgrim · #9 (**permalink**) 07-16-2008, 05:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jon Peters

Quote:

Originally Posted by R Harris

Let me tell you a story. Back in 2006, A gentleman named Dave Melhalf ran for County Commissioner seat #1 in Oklahoma County. His opponent, the incumbent Jim Roth, is an avowed homosexual. Everyone knows it, it is no secret. Roth received tens of thousands of dollars in campaign contributions from all over the country, mostly coming from homosexual activist groups (now, why would they care about the Oklahoma County Commissioner seat? Yes, they do have an agenda). When Dave asked the mayor (Mick Cornett - a man who advertises himself as "strong, values oriented Christian) to endorse him, Mr. Cornett said no. Kirk Humphries, a wealthy businessman who ran for the US Senate in 2004 and an influential SBC member, backed Roth for the race and would have nothing to do with Dave.

In Dave's campaign literature, he made it known that he would rule righteously, and that Mr. Roth was indeed using his sexual preference to impact some of his decisions in office.

Dave was stunned at the email response he got. Hundreds of people calling themselves "evangelical Christians" sent him hateful emails, saying that he should have never brought Roth's homosexuality up in the campaign, that one's private life had nothing to do with public office, and that he was a bigot. It especially angers me that men like Cornett and Humphries can get away with what they did and did not do, and no repercussions from the Christian community.

That, my friend, is the sad state of affairs with much of evangelical Christianity right now.

[ PS. Roth, shortly after his 63% landslide victory over Dave, was appointed to the Corporation Commission, taking the vacated spot of Denise Bode. He was appointed by Governor Brad Henry, a deacon in an SBC church . . . . . . . . . . ]

I'm not sure I get the example but I would tend to vote for the one most qualified for the job. Is it unbiblical for a non-Christian or homosexual to hold a political office?

For most theocrats (if not all) the answer is yes. Also, in my experience many of them won't answer whether a Baptist church would be allowed in their ideal society.

Backwoods Presbyterian · #10 (**permalink**) 07-16-2008, 05:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jon Peters

Quote:

Originally Posted by R Harris

Let me tell you a story. Back in 2006, A gentleman named Dave Melhalf ran for County Commissioner seat #1 in Oklahoma County. His opponent, the incumbent Jim Roth, is an avowed homosexual. Everyone knows it, it is no secret. Roth received tens of thousands of dollars in campaign contributions from all over the country, mostly coming from homosexual activist groups (now, why would they care about the Oklahoma County Commissioner seat? Yes, they do have an agenda). When Dave asked the mayor (Mick Cornett - a man who advertises himself as "strong, values oriented Christian) to endorse him, Mr. Cornett said no. Kirk Humphries, a wealthy businessman who ran for the US Senate in 2004 and an influential SBC member, backed Roth for the race and would have nothing to do with Dave.

In Dave's campaign literature, he made it known that he would rule righteously, and that Mr. Roth was indeed using his sexual preference to impact some of his decisions in office.

Dave was stunned at the email response he got. Hundreds of people calling themselves "evangelical Christians" sent him hateful emails, saying that he should have never brought Roth's homosexuality up in the campaign, that one's private life had nothing to do with public office, and that he was a bigot. It especially angers me that men like Cornett and Humphries can get away with what they did and did not do, and no repercussions from the Christian community.

That, my friend, is the sad state of affairs with much of evangelical Christianity right now.

[ PS. Roth, shortly after his 63% landslide victory over Dave, was appointed to the Corporation Commission, taking the vacated spot of Denise Bode. He was appointed by Governor Brad Henry, a deacon in an SBC church . . . . . . . . . . ]

I'm not sure I get the example but I would tend to vote for the one most qualified for the job. Is it unbiblical for a non-Christian or homosexual to hold a political office?

Yes.

R Harris · #11 (**permalink**) 07-16-2008, 05:43 PM

[quote=Pilgrim;438621]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jon Peters

For most theocrats (if not all) the answer is yes. Also, in my experience many of them won't answer whether a Baptist church would be allowed in their ideal society.

Chris, I want to be careful here, but you would agree with me that you would rather have a godly ruler than an ungodly ruler, right?

The Scripture is full of verses (e.g. see numerous passages in Proverbs, for example) saying that it is the duty of the magistrate to rule righteously and justly. They are also COMMANDED to pay homage in their public office to Christ (Psalm 2:10-12; Isaiah 60:12, to cite just four verses regarding this matter). The requirements for a godly magistrate in Romans 13:2-6 are very clear.

Exactly how does a homosexual magistrate (or any other ungodly magistrate, for that matter) fulfill the Biblical mandate as described above?

Semper Fidelis · #12 (**permalink**) 07-16-2008, 06:28 PM

Unfortunately, I don't see much hope in homeschooling. Of the "Christians" that I run into that home school in the OCHEA out here and elsewhere, a vast number of them are flakes whose theology is on the far side of bizarre. If all home schooled for Biblical reasons then things would be different but it tends to attract the "Home Church" types just as much.

Jon Peters · #13 (**permalink**) 07-16-2008, 06:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Backwoods Presbyterian

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jon Peters

Is it unbiblical for a non-Christian or homosexual to hold a political office?

Yes.

Why does Paul or Jesus for that matter not call down thunder on the Romans or the Jews?

If it is unbiblical does that make them illegitimate rulers? If so, why would we obey them? If you would hold that they are unbiblical rulers yet legitimate, please explain how this makes sense.

sotzo · #14 (**permalink**) 07-16-2008, 06:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Semper Fidelis

Unfortunately, I don't see much hope in homeschooling. Of the "Christians" that I run into that home school in the OCHEA out here and elsewhere, a vast number of them are flakes whose theology is on the far side of bizarre. If all home schooled for Biblical reasons then things would be different but it tends to attract the "Home Church" types just as much.

Also, as Jesus did in his days on earth, the true church sometimes "flies under the radar" with the gospel going forth in word and deed in a way that is not measurable by any poll. Think about the prison ministries, inner-city ministries, over coffee conversations, healed relationships, etc...all happening to the glory of God, completely out of sight and never heard of.

I think attempting to quantify God's kingdom coming to earth as some day when the majority of US folks show poll-detectable signs of knowing Jesus is wrong from the start. Sure, if Christians are living out their faith culture will be impacted in noticeable ways....but noticeable by mass media or opinion polls? Such venues can never measure cups of water given in Christ's name with all the power, yet no glitz and glamour...it's not sexy enough, yet it is surely God's kingdom coming to earth one square inch of dirt at a time.

sotzo · #15 (**permalink**) 07-16-2008, 07:20 PM

[quote=R Harris;438630]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pilgrim

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jon Peters

For most theocrats (if not all) the answer is yes. Also, in my experience many of them won't answer whether a Baptist church would be allowed in their ideal society.

Chris, I want to be careful here, but you would agree with me that you would rather have a godly ruler than an ungodly ruler, right?

The Scripture is full of verses (e.g. see numerous passages in Proverbs, for example) saying that it is the duty of the magistrate to rule righteously and justly. They are also COMMANDED to pay homage in their public office to Christ (Psalm 2:10-12; Isaiah 60:12, to cite just four verses regarding this matter). The requirements for a godly magistrate in Romans 13:2-6 are very clear.

Exactly how does a homosexual magistrate (or any other ungodly magistrate, for that matter) fulfill the Biblical mandate as described above?

Romans 13 is not stating the characteristics of a godly magistrate. Rather it is stating the response believers should have to a magistrate. True, the passage states that the magistrate is God's servant...he serves God's ends in spite of his character, because God is sovereign over the rulers, both good and bad.

I think saying one should not vote for a homosexual or a non-Christian because the Bible forbids it is adding to Scripture where Scripture has not spoken. If such a vote would violate your conscience then by all means abstain...but binding the consciences of others on this issue would be a problem.

R Harris · #16 (**permalink**) 07-16-2008, 09:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sotzo

Romans 13 is not stating the characteristics of a godly magistrate. Rather it is stating the response believers should have to a magistrate. True, the passage states that the magistrate is God's servant...he serves God's ends in spite of his character, because God is sovereign over the rulers, both good and bad.

If you do even minimal research, I think you will find about 100+ Puritan/Covenanter authors who would strongly take issue with your interpretation of Romans 13 . . . . . . .

Blev3rd · #17 (**permalink**) 07-16-2008, 09:30 PM

IS NOT THE FIRST RESPONSE OF TRUE BELIVERS TO CRY OUT IN REPENTANCE TO THE LORD FOR OUR SINS, THE SINS OF THIS NATION, AND THE SINS OF THE "CHURCH"?

OUR ONLY HOPE IS CHRIST AND IF HE WILLS HE WILL BRING REFORMATION TO THIS LAND. THERE IS NOTHING WE CAN DO TO FORCE REFORMATION OR SALVATION ON OUR CULTURE. EVEN SO WE HAVE A RESPONSIBILITY TO PRESS THE CROWN RIGHTS OF JESUS IN EVERY AREA OF LIFE. WE MUST START WITH OURSELVES AND WORK ON EVERY OTHER AREA OF OUR LIVES. (I KNOW THAT I AM PREACHING TO THE CHOIR ON THE PB ABOUT THIS) IT WOULD BE A START TO SEE CHURCHES MEETING TO CRY OUT IN REPENTANCE TO PRAY FOR MERCY AND TO CALL ON THE LORD TO PROTECT HIS CHOOSEN. AS WE DO THIS WE SHOULD ENCOURAGE AND DEMAND FAITHFUL, FEARLESS, BIBLICAL PREACHING THAT CALLS THE CHURCH AND THE NATION BACK TO THE TRIUNE GOD. AS WE STRIVE EVERYDAY TO CONFORM OUR LIVES TO GOD'S WORD WE MUST RAISE OUR CHILDREN TO BE FAITHFUL SERVANTS OF THE KING. HOMESCHOOLING IS THE BEST METHOD FOR THIS I CAN SEE. OUR CHILDREN NEED TO SEE US (AND STAND BESIDE US) AS WE ENCOUNTER THE ENEMY IN THE GATE. (THIS IMPLIES WE HAVE TO GET OUT OF OUR HOUSES) WE MUST ENCOUNTER THEM IN EVERY AREA OF LIFE. IN OUR HOMES, OUR CHURCHES, THE MARKETPLACE, ENTERTAINMENT, THE ARTS, CIVIL GOVERNMENT, AND EVERY OTHER ASPECT OF LIFE. I DO AGREE THAT IT IS GOING TO BE VERY DIFICCULT ESPECIALLY DURING A TIME OF JUDGMENT. WE MUST LOOK TO THE HISTORY OF GOD'S PEOPLE AND SEE THAT WE HAVE BEEN IN PERSECUTION AND THE LORD HAS ALWAYS PRESERVED HIS PEOPLE. I AM ALWAYS ENCOURAGED TO KNOW THAT WE ARE NOT ON A DOWNWARD SPIRAL BUT THAT CHRIST IS BUILDING HIS CHURCH.

Isaiah 11:9 (New American Standard Bible)

9 They will not hurt or destroy in all My holy mountain,
For the earth will be full of the knowledge of the LORD
As the waters cover the sea.

THIS IS MY MY WIFE AND I ARE BY THE GRACE OF GOD TRYING TO DO THIS. WE ARE ALSO WORKING ON A MULTIGENERATIONAL 200 YEAR PLAN AND PURPOSE FOR THE BLEVINS FAMILY THAT WILL FOCUS OUR CHILDREN, THERE CHILDREN AND SO ON TO SERVE CHRIST OUR KING. WE PRAY THAT THE LORD WILL BRING REFORMATION AND USE ALL OF US TO GLORIFY HIS NAME IN THIS LAND.