Leaving the Puritan Board

[kevin.carroll]

Hello everyone.

This will be my final post to the Puritan Board. I have appreciated the fellowship and encouragement so many of you have been over the last two years, from sharpening my understanding of what it means to be Reformed, to providing assistance after Katrian, to the prayers that have been offered on my behalf.

Having said that, however, I have been deeply saddened as I have seen a few people on this board run off a fair number of people who either were seeking to understand the Reformed faith or who didn't conform to what these individuals thought it meant to be Reformed. These people (all of whom belong to the same demonination and some of whom are moderators) run roughshod over those with whom they disagree, often belittling their intelligence or mocking their questions, while the Board owners sit idly by and do nothing about it. These people are filled with a spiritual elitism and arrogance that is, frankly, nauseating and totally unbecoming of those who name the name of Christ. I had hoped that I had left this sort of thing behind when I abandoned my Fundamentalist upbringing a decade ago, but I guess I was wrong.

It is my prayer that the Puritan Board will continue to be a useful tool. It is further my prayer that these people will come to know something of the grace of God that they tout.

[Puritanhead]

These people (all of whom belong to the same demonination and some of whom are moderators) run roughshod over those with whom they disagree, often belittling their intelligence or mocking their questions, while the Board owners sit idly by and do nothing about it.

Always blame the board owners: The buck stops with Scott Bushey, C. Matthew McMahon, and Fred Greco. That's always a good idea. Yes, I am being sarcastic albeit in a light-hearted manner. Some say the moderators are too strict (even "Pharasaic" as the AA/FV crowd charges them), and still others complain they aren't strict enough. They cannot win for losing with some of you people.


On a more serious note, I am sorry you feel this way, and I am saddened by your departure, and your charges of "spiritual elitism and arrogance" being pervasive on the Puritanboard, which I disagree with BTW. The Puritanboard for whatever disadvantages it may have is a good resource and tool overall.

Those stronger in faith should be pro-active in shepherding their weaker brothers, including wet-behind-the-ears, but passionate twenty-somethings like myself. As someone in a pastoral role, perhaps you could tacitly correct those you disagree with, though privately perhaps via U2U. I have to confess and just say what is on my mind: all of this melodrama where people make these departures with a jab and punch (at the Puritanboard and the proprietors of it) before going offline gets old after a while, and it's not really called for. If I wanted melodrama of this sort, than I would be in the SBC. Granted, I was prone to a little melodrama of my own when I objected privately to a moderator rebuking me last year, but I had it coming. I have since apologized for my action and appreciate his grace and leniency.

Seriously, we live in a fallen world, we are all sinners, and there will always be disagreements. We should learn to disagree and discuss with mutual-respect and understanding. As Edmund Burke, the father of conservatism observed, "He that wrestles with us strengthens our nerves and sharpens our skill. Our antagonist is our helper." And as Proverbs 27:17 declares, "As iron sharpens iron, So a man sharpens the countenance of his friend."

Well, I shall return to my so called hiatus. IMHO The Puritanboard should be used in moderation just like alcohol and time spent in the company of women.

Puritanhead

[Scott Bushey]

I agree Ryan; we are all growing in grace. Some of us argue better than others. For instance, I would rather get into a fisticuff w/ Paul Manata that argue philosophy, apologetics or even what the word 'what' means. Paul is a master in this regard and I thank God for him. This took time, but I have grown to really appreciate Paul. My pastor, is a little different; his weapon is driven by being thorough and accurate. You Ryan are a political resource that I appreciate; not bad w/ current events either! You are young and spry; God will use you one day in a larger fashion.

The owners take full responsibility; it is our fault God gave us unction. That the HS drove us to create such a venue as the PB; it is vigorous, many times political and can even be a stumbling block; unfortunately, as mentioned, we are all fallen. Even the most seasoned man of God has wrecklessly debated here only to be driven by the flesh and pride, many times bruising a brother or sister in faith. Sad but true. Kevin calls it "nauseating". It is. Have we grown over these shortcoming? I pray so. The board is not perfect; but it is the best venue of it's kind; this cannot be denied.

People leave; then they miss it. The fellowship and accuracy of what the board is made up of is purifying, exhortive and edifying. For instance, Brian P. struggled greatly w/ the issue of the Lords day sabbath. months he chewed this over only to be reconciled w/ the scriptures. Praise goes only to Him. Apparently, God used this board and it's members to assist this young man. Is there condenscencion from time to time? Yes. Am I guilty of that? Yes. God forgive me! I repent. In a venue like this, people get offended. There is no way to avoid it. Is it not possible it is Gods rebuke and refining fire to the offended? Some times it is. Other times it is the flesh. Again, sad but true.

Kevin, as mentioned, if you have something against a brother, have you followed the biblical mandate in this regard? Have you bent a knee yet for this/these people? I do hear you Kevin, but this is the first time you have conveyed this; and in an open setting at that. Why did you not contact Matt or I privately first, not to mention the person or people you are bruised by? As well, I know that you are not above your complaint; I have seen sarcasm at times from you as well.

Whatever the case, these things happen in forums of this nature. There is not one venue of this nature that doesn't suffer from time to time with these issues. Much like the visible church, we must work through these things. Rebukes are necessary; scripture always works wonders. Keep in mind, Matt, myself and the rest of the leadership here have lives above and beyond this board. We do not do this for a living.

Well, I don't know it what I said helps at all Kevin, you will be missed.

[Edited on 7-15-2006 by Scott Bushey]

[gwine]

Originally posted by Scott Bushey


Kevin, as mentioned, if you have something against a brother, have you followed the biblical mandate in this regard? Have you bent a knee yet for this/these people? I do hear you Kevin, but this is the first time you have conveyed this; and in an open setting at that. Why did you not contact Matt or I privately first, not to mention the person or people you are bruised by?

Mat 18:15 "If your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault, between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have gained your brother.
Mat 18:16 But if he does not listen, take one or two others along with you, that every charge may be established by the evidence of two or three witnesses.
Mat 18:17 If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church. And if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector.

Well, I don't know it what I said helps at all Kevin, you will be missed.

[Edited on 7-15-2006 by Scott Bushey]

That you will.

[Jeff_Bartel]

Excellent post Scott.

[BobVigneault]

Sott,
I am moved my brother. Great post.

Pastor Kevin,
Please don't go. Stay for all the reasons you gave for leaving. If you do go, go in grace and may our Lord bless your ministry.

[panta dokimazete]

kevin - if you look in my sig, you know how I have protested in my own little way - why not do something similar and maintain your presence here as a balancing influence (such as one can be)?

...mes deux cents...

Also - blessings to you if you do decide to go...you will be missed.

<hr>

by PuritanHead - If I wanted melodrama of this sort, than I would be in the SBC.

-JD

[Edited on 7-16-2006 by jdlongmire]

[Contra_Mundum]

I'll just say:
1) ditto to the melodrama criticism

2) ditto to the observation that no matter how we do, we will be criticised for BOTH laxity and leniency

3) in the past week I got a complaint about you Kevin--but I took a look at the situation, and thought it was a case of another PB poster having "too thin skin," and basically ignored it. You're complaining that we don't "reign people in," and here you are getting away with something that someone else thought YOU should have been "reigned in" about. But I let you go. You never even knew about it. Should I have handled that differently? If I'd said a word about it, you would have had another reason to see a moderator taking a side against you. So by not saying anything and ignoring the complaint, if anything I was siding with you!

4) those who have maturity should bear with those folks here who don't have it yet. This is a mixed crowd. There's no way beside "age" to screen for maturity for getting aboard the PB. What we try to do is enforce Confessional doctrine, and basic biblical standards--like respecting elders. But we have to balance that with grown adults (sometimes fellow teaching elders!) disagreeing with one another. Honestly, keeping things on an even keel here is a lot like parenting. People leave in a huff. And we're just left at the end shrugging our shoulders, and saying "you can't please everybody." End of story.

5) maybe everybody can learn a thing of two from this, about the complex and balanced work that goes on behind the scenes trying to make as many people as possible feel at home here.

6) you walked out, so you are welcome to walk back in anytime, Kevin. Peace.

[VirginiaHuguenot]

Recent Happenings - Part Deux - Maybe it's time for all of us to read through these verses again...

[smhbbag]

Mat 18:15 "If your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault, between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have gained your brother.
Mat 18:16 But if he does not listen, take one or two others along with you, that every charge may be established by the evidence of two or three witnesses.
Mat 18:17 If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church. And if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector.

I do not believe a citation of this passage is very relevant.

Kevin's post is not in response to a brother sinning against him as this passage assumes in v. 15. This is not a matter in which he was mistreated; he is upset over the treatment of others.

If he is right in his rebuke of moderators/owners of this board, then their sin is both very public and directed toward other brethren, not himself.

An apology should be as public as the sin being repented of. Is it not the case also for a rebuke?

I do not know exactly what situation Kevin is talking about, nor have I seen moderators/owners acting consistently as he alleges. But, if those are his issues, they have a rightful place in public, and this passage certainly does not necessitate this type of grievance be discussed in private first.

[Edited on 7-17-2006 by smhbbag]

[gwine]

Originally posted by smhbbag

Mat 18:15 "If your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault, between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have gained your brother.
Mat 18:16 But if he does not listen, take one or two others along with you, that every charge may be established by the evidence of two or three witnesses.
Mat 18:17 If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church. And if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector.

I do not believe a citation of this passage is very relevant.

Kevin's post is not in response to a brother sinning against him as this passage assumes in v. 15. This is not a matter in which he was mistreated; he is upset over the treatment of others.

If he is right in his rebuke of moderators/owners of this board, then their sin is both very public and directed toward other brethren, not himself.

An apology should be as public as the sin being repented of. Is it not the case also for a rebuke?

I do not know exactly what situation Kevin is talking about, nor have I seen moderators/owners acting consistently as he alleges. But, if those are his issues, they have a rightful place in public, and this passage certainly does not necessitate this type of grievance be discussed in private first.

[Edited on 7-17-2006 by smhbbag]

Then we will have to charitably disagree, my brother, because I believe that in the broader context these verses apply. Even if Kevin is upset over the treatment of others, he is a pastor and he should set a better example and discuss the matter first with the one with whom he has an offense.

Then, and only then, if he is unable to get it resolved, is it appropriate for him to take it public.

And I realize that we do not know all the facts concerning what has transpired, so we are threading on thin ice if we continue to make assumptions that aren't warranted. But again, if he has an issue, would it not be correct to take it to the one he is offended by first? Then, if he believes that the issue has not been resolved (which could include public apologies), he could make it public and let it be known that he did try to resolve the problem privately.

May we all become one under Christ.

[Edited on 7-17-2006 by gwine]

[LadyFlynt]

Maybe I've just been out of the loop lately...but I have no clue what happened this time. I've seen ppl conversing...but not anyone feeling "run off".

[Scott Bushey]

Colleen,
The charge has to do with things from the past as well as the present. Whatever the case, this thread is done.

Kevin,
We pray God continues to bless the work of your hands.

SPB