A friend asked me a question...

CalvinandHodges · #1 (**permalink**) 05-18-2008, 06:52 PM

Hi:

A friend of mine asked me a question and I need help in answering it from the Board. Here it is:

Question with hypothetical:
If I moved to a a new town and the only Churches to possibly go to were dispensational baptists, and a Lutheran missouri synod...I would be forced to go to the lutheran (because of my paedo stance)....Now, what would I expect to be the main differences for me with the lutheran church, me being a OPC..

I would like to know more about the Lutheran (miss. synod) church and relate it to presbyterianism.

Any help will be greatly appreciated.

Grace and Peace,

-CH

JM · #2 (**permalink**) 05-18-2008, 06:54 PM

From the LCMS site:

Quote:

Q. How does the Missouri Synod differ from the Presbyterian Church?

A. As is the case with most mainline denominations today, there are specific issues such as the ordination of women, abortion, homosexuality, etc., that divide the distinct Presbyterian church bodies (for example, the Presbyterian Church in the USA (PCUSA) and the more conservative Presbyterian Church in America (PCA)). Such differences typically stem from more fundamental differences concerning the authority of Scripture itself. Having said this, the major theological differences between historic Lutheranism and Presbyterianism (and other churches of Calvinistic background and theological orientation) include the following:

1. The centrality of the Gospel. Presbyterian churches tend to emphasize the "glory" or "sovereignty" of God as the central teaching of Scripture, while Lutherans believe that the central teaching of Scripture--and the key to understanding and interpreting the Bible-is the Gospel: the Good News of Salvation for sinners by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone.
2. The nature of Christ's atonement. Lutherans believe that when Jesus died on the cross He atoned for the sins of all people of all time-even those who have not or will not come to faith in Christ and will spend eternity in hell. Some Presbyterian churches teach a "limited atonement" of Christ, i.e., that Christ's death on the cross atoned only for the sins of "the elect"--those who have been predestined from eternity to believe in Christ and will spend eternity with Him in heaven.
3. Predestination. Most Presbyterian churches teach a "double predestination," i.e., that some people are predestined by God from eternity to be saved and others are predestined by God from eternity to be damned. Lutherans believe that while God, in his grace in Christ Jesus, has indeed chosen from eternity to save those who trust in Jesus Christ, He has not predestined anyone to damnation. Those who are saved are saved by grace alone; those who are damned are damned not by God's choice but because of their own sin and stubbornness. This is a mystery that is incomprehensible to human reason (as are all true Scriptural articles of faith).
4. The authority of Scripture. A fourth difference has to do with the proper use of reason and its relationship to the authority of Scripture. Lutherans look to Scripture alone as the source of all Christian doctrine, and hold to the teachings of Scripture even when they are incomprehensible to human reason. Some Presbyterian churches tend to place human reason alongside Scripture as a source of doctrinal authority, and seek to bring seemingly paradoxical Scriptural truths into harmony with human reason in ways that (in our view) undermine the truthfulness and authority of Scripture.
5. The Sacraments. Most Presbyterian churches (to a greater or lesser degree) view the sacraments of Baptism and the Lord's Supper merely as "signs" or "symbols" of God's grace. Lutherans believe that Baptism and the Lord's Supper (which is the true body and blood of Christ in, with, and under bread and wine) are actual means of God's grace through which the Holy Spirit works to convey and/or strengthen faith.

A more detailed discussion of the differences between Lutherans and Calvinist churches may be found in "Churches in America" by Thomas Manteufel, available from Concordia Publishing House in St. Louis (1-800-325-3040).

Quote:

Q. What are the major differences between the Missouri Synod and Reformed churches?

A. Just as there are many significant differences in theology and practice between Lutherans of varying denominations, the same is true when it comes to different churches within the Reformed tradition. Differences exist among Reformed churches even regarding such fundamental issues as the authority of Scripture and the nature and centrality of the doctrine of justification.

Historically, however, most Reformed churches adhere to the five points of Calvinist theology commonly summarized by the acrostic "tulip" as these were set forth at the Synod of Dort (1618-19). On page 41 in his book, Churches in America, Dr. Thomas Manteufel reviews these five points and explains how they compare and/or contrast with what Lutherans believe regarding these matters.

T (Total Depravity) The Calvinists rightly teach that all descendants of Adam are by nature totally corrupt in spiritual matters. People do not have freedom of the will to turn to God in faith or cooperate in their conversions (Eph. 2:1; John 3:5-6; Rom. 8:7).

U (Unconditional predestination) Scripture does teach that it is by grace that God has predestinated the elect to eternal salvation and given them justifying faith. It is not because of any condition fulfilled by them (2 Tim. 1:9; Eph. 1:4-6; Phil. 1:29). However, the Bible does not teach, as do the Calvinists, that some are predestined for damnation. God wants all to be saved (1 Tim 2:4).

L (Limited atonement) It is true that Christ died for the church and purchased it with His blood (Eph. 5:25; Acts 20:28). Furthermore, His atoning death does not mean that all people are saved (1 Cor. 1:18). However, Jesus died for all (2 Cor. 5:15).

I (Irresistible grace) We agree that God makes us alive by His mighty power, without our aid (Eph. 2:5; John 1:13). But Scripture warns that we can resist God’s gracious call (Matt. 23:27; Acts 7:51; 2 Cor. 6:1). And some people do resist God’s grace, or all would be saved (1 Tim 2:4). Furthermore, God warns us not to resist His grace (2 Cor. 6:1; Heb. 4:7).

P (Perseverance in grace) We affirm with Scripture that those who are predestined to salvation cannot be lost but will continue by God’s power to a blessed end (Rom. 8:30; 1 Peter 1:5). Scripture does not teach, however, that those who come to faith cannot lose that faith (Heb. 6:4-6; 10:26-29; Ps. 51:11). God urges His people not to continue in sin but to live in repentance and faith (Rom. 6:1-4).

Churches in America by Dr. Thomas Manteufel; p. 41 (St. Louis: CPH, 1994).

For more information about the Reformed Church as well as other denominations in the United States, you may contact Concordia Publishing House in St. Louis at 1-800-325-3040 and ask for Churches in America, by Thomas Manteufel, stock no. 22-2522.

Backwoods Presbyterian · #3 (**permalink**) 05-18-2008, 07:17 PM

Wow. Thanks JM.

DMcFadden · #4 (**permalink**) 05-18-2008, 07:40 PM

Great summary of the differences between LCMS and Reformed churches!

On a more anecdotal level, unlike the largely apostate ELCA, the LCMS is a solidly Reformational denomination. They hold to inerrancy, believe in the necessity of evangelism, hold to most of the social views PB members accept, and preach the Gospel. One of my former teachers, Dr. Rod Rosenblatt, is a regular panelist on the White Horse Inn.

My assistant is the wife of a LCMS minister.

I would probably join a Calvinistic dispensational church over a Lutheran one of any stripe. However, the LCMS has my admiration for their stalwart stand against the nonsense of this age.

JM · #5 (**permalink**) 05-18-2008, 09:02 PM

WELS is even more traditional/confessional, they seem to be holding the front here in North America.

Quote:

I am just curious, what are the differences between LCMS and WELS? Thank you!
A:

The Missouri Synod was founded in 1847. The Wisconsin Synod was founded in 1850. In 1868 representatives of the Wisconsin and Missouri synods met and recognized each other's orthodoxy. In 1869 fellowship was declared between the two synods. Both synods participated in the founding of the Ev. Lutheran Synodical Conference of North America and carried out some joint work through that organization. This relationship lasted for nearly 100 years.

The Wisconsin Synod terminated fellowship with the Missouri Synod in 1961 because of differences in the doctrine and practice of church fellowship. Over the years the Missouri Synod had departed from the doctrine and practice of fellowship long held by the members of the Synodical Conference in which the Wisconsin Synod and the Missouri Synod shared confessional fellowship.

The Wisconsin Synod teaches that agreement on all the teachings of Scripture is necessary for all forms of fellowship. The Missouri Synod teaches that full agreement is necessary only for altar and pulpit fellowship. Wisconsin teaches that the same scriptural principles apply to all forms of church or religious fellowship. All joint prayer is an expression of fellowship. Missouri teaches that there can be joint prayer that is not an act of fellowship. In practice Missouri also indicates that full agreement is not necessary for worship at occasional joint Christian celebrations, Reformation services, convocations, or rallies. Some Missouri pastors allow "ecumenical wedding services" at which pastors or priests outside their fellowship may participate.

Wisconsin practices "close" or "closed" communion, inviting to our altars only those who are members of congregations in our fellowship. Although Missouri officially teaches "close(d)" communion, many pastors and churches practice "open" communion, allowing joint communion with those not in doctrinal agreement with the Missouri Synod.

There are also differences in the doctrine of the church and ministry between the two synods. Wisconsin teaches that God has not ordained any particular form of the church. The invisible church is present in the local congregation and the synod. Both can be called church in the same sense. Missouri's official teaching seems to be that the local congregation is the only "divinely appointed" form of the church. By contrast the synod is a human arrangement.

Wisconsin teaches that the pastor of a local congregation is only one form of the divinely instituted public ministry. Other forms are teachers, professors, called administrators, etc. The specific form is determined by the church's call. Missouri seems to teach that the only divinely instituted form of the public ministry is that of pastor of a local congregation. All other positions are auxiliary to this one. However, there appear to be a number of different teachings on the church and ministry current in the Missouri Synod.

Because Scripture assigns the headship role to men and a helping role to women, only men serve in offices and roles that involve an exercise of authority over other men in WELS. Missouri does not allow women to serve as pastors but allows women to serve in a number of areas which involve the exercise of authority over men.

A continuing problem in the Missouri Synod seems to be an unwillingness or inability to exercise doctrinal discipline with those who teach and practice contrary to Scripture or to the public doctrine of the Missouri Synod. The Differences - Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod (WELS)

InevitablyReformed · #6 (**permalink**) 05-18-2008, 09:10 PM

CH--

Other than the doctrinal ambiguities of Lutheran soteriology, your Reformed friend must also take into account that if he is planning on attending the LCMS church for awhile, he needs to be prepared not to participate in the Lord's Supper. Most LCMS pastors require a thorough understanding and acceptance of what is commonly called "consubstantiation" if one is to participate. It might be awkward to have to "sit out" the Lord's Supper for a few years.

Not intending this to be harsh as I know many LCMSers, including my father. I will pray for your friend.

Daniel

jwithnell · #7 (**permalink**) 05-18-2008, 10:26 PM

I was in a similar situation to your friend, and my answer would be -- don't move to a place where you will not find a solid reformed church. I attended a Missouri Synod church while looking for a congregation out west. After some time, I became convinced that they believed in baptismal regeneration, even though the official denominational line is that they do not. I was also horrified by the very condescending view of people they had outside of the faith (in official denominational literature).

Theoretical · #8 (**permalink**) 05-18-2008, 11:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jwithnell

I was in a similar situation to your friend, and my answer would be -- don't move to a place where you will not find a solid reformed church. I attended a Missouri Synod church while looking for a congregation out west. After some time, I became convinced that they believed in baptismal regeneration, even though the official denominational line is that they do not. I was also horrified by the very condescending view of people they had outside of the faith (in official denominational literature).

WELS is even worse than LCMS in that regard - as WELS does not pray with people from non-WELS (or WELS-affiliated) churches, and if I recall it holds some strange views about how a huge number of believers are in false churches but still within the invisible church.

That said though, if I moved to an area without a good reformed church, and it were between a dispy Baptist church and a confessional Lutheran body, I still would probably lean toward the Lutheran body, if nothing else because it at least would recognize mine and my (future) kids' baptisms as legitimate. It would also depend on whether the Dispy Baptists were Left Behind types or MacArthurites. Of course, I would also see if there were a Reformed Anglican-type congregation as well, but that's an aside.