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05-03-2008, 02:38 PM
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| | Quote:
Originally Posted by Southern Presbyterian
Are you sure this pic is not photoshopped?  | Yep, unless the National Portrait Gallery photoshops their paintings... NPG 1; William Shakespeare
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Mason
Member, Redeemer Presbyterian Church (PCA)
New York, NY
"Come now, and let us reason together," says the Lord, "Though your sins are like scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they are red like crimson, they shall be as wool." - Isaiah 1:18
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05-03-2008, 02:44 PM
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Originally Posted by ColdSilverMoon Quote:
Originally Posted by Archlute Which brings us to a broader discussion of cultural normativity in morality. Do we set our moral standards by cultural consensus, as seems to be argued here, or do we look for deeper principles that transcend the culture, such as those found in the various applications of the Decalogue in the Larger Catechism, inference from apostolic injunctions, and the careful writings of Puritan casuistry? We are still known here as the "Puritan Board", correct? | Fair enough. So point to me where these indicate it is wrong for a man to wear an earring. | I, too, agree that we should look for deeper principles that transcend culture, but I don't see how we can deduce from the Decalogue that men shouldn't wear earrings. I used to wear them but stopped because of personal aesthetic preference. This obviously cannot, however, equate to a general proscription, but I'm open to being shown otherwise.
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Davidius
Husband of Emilia
Member: First Reformed Presbyterian Church of Durham (RPCNA) - Durham, NC
Student: University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill, German Literature and Classics This may explain the old adage about Baptists being Methodists with shoes, and Presbyterians being Baptists who can read. To round out the adage, Lutherans might qualify as Presbyterians who drink to excess, and Episcopalians as Lutherans who know when to say when. - D.G. Hart
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05-03-2008, 02:59 PM
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| | I remember my brother coming home one day, at 14 or 15, with an earring in one ear. My dad ignored my brother, turned to me and said "you know Eric there are two types of men who wear earrings, pirates and homosexuals, and you don't see too many pirates around any more." My brother turned on his heals and walked out of the room. We never did see that earring again.
In all seriousness though, earrings aren't my thing, but since there is nothing unbiblical about them their use should be a matter of personal taste and liberty.
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Eric
Woodgreen Presbyterian (PCA)
Calgary, Alberta CANADA
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05-03-2008, 02:59 PM
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Originally Posted by ericfromcowtown I remember my brother coming home one day, at 14 or 15, with an earring in one ear. My dad ignored my brother, turned to me and said "you know Eric there are two types of men who wear earrings, pirates and homosexuals, and you don't see too many pirates around any more." My brother turned on his heals and walked out of the room. We never did see that earring again.  |  | 
05-03-2008, 03:05 PM
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Originally Posted by Archlute Quote:
Originally Posted by raekwon Quote:
Originally Posted by Archlute
The culture which prevailed before relatively recent times when it then became marginally acceptable for men to wear women's jewelry in public. | Really? That's "our" culture?
I don't buy it. Actually, I have a tough time buying any sort of argument that claims that we live in some sort of singular culture. The fact is, culture is splintered along all sorts of lines -- generational, geographic, racial, gender, political, affinity, and the list can go on and on. Now, of course, Christ reigns over all cultures, and scriptural commands and mandates apply to all cultures at all times, but . . . I have a really tough time believing that whether or not a man "should" wear earrings if he wishes is one of them.
Also, the idea that earrings are necessarily "women's jewelry" doesn't make much sense to me. It's like saying denim jeans are necessarily "men's pants". There are certainly some earrings that are designed for women, but there are others designed for men. | Really? Show me a consensus or practice among any major social class or ethnic group in America before the post-WWII era that would have accepted men's earrings.
I think you are reading too much cheap revisionist history of the kind they push in modern university studies now that loves to revel in a the supposed diversity and pluriformity of culture/sexual orientation/etc in reconstructing historic circumstances and events. I remember taking a class on 19th century Western America whose main thesis was that prostitutes (that class of women who are "woefully under appreciated and under represented in our history books") were nearly the sole reason that the "West was Won". Just because one may have been born or raised in a modern American city where the culture has fragmented, and in many cases degenerated, does not mean that things have always been that way for large portions of the population, revisionist history aside.
If you want to talk about "your" culture, could you really say that your forebears going multiple generations back would have accepted the wearing of what was commonly understood to be women's jewelry by the men of their day? I really doubt you could substantiate that.
To be honest, I would most likely not give a positive vote at presbytery for a potential minister or ruling elder who wore earrings, because I believe that such dress represents a personal vanity, and a lack of sober-mindedness and respectability which is required by the Apostle Paul in emplacing elders among the congregation. Feel free to disagree, but these things are important in the representation of the church to the world, according to apostolic command, and no amount of post modern/emergent church/cultural relativism will change that. | Wow. I guess it's a good thing that God knew who and who not to put on the examining commission when He called me to the office of Elder!  I find it interesting that, substituting a few words in that last paragraph, you've used a very similar argument to those who'd say that they'd never vote for an elder who used alcohol. VERY similar. But I don't know; maybe you feel the same way about alcohol.
Anyway, it's pretty obvious that we're going to disagree fundamentally on a few things, but I just want to make sure we're actually addressing what the other is saying instead of "arguing around" eachother. You've been a Christian for almost as long as I've been alive, so I definitely appreciate your wisdom and education. Still, it seems to me that we're talking about different things when we talk about "culture". For instance, I'm having a tough time understanding where the pre-WWII era even figures in this discussion. Sure, it's interesting from an historical perspective, but we're talking about the propriety of earrings on men in 2008, in "our culture". All I'm saying is that the minute one says "our culture" in a discussion like this, anything after that point is useless without an agreed-upon definition of what "our culture" is. For instance, there's a huge difference in the culture that my church largely ministers to (urban, younger, bohemian, artistic, highly educated) and the culture that our sister PCA church fifteen miles away ministers to (suburban, older, more "working class", but also educated). We have a common bond in Christ and in the reformed faith, but the cultures of our churches are not the same. I'm not about to tell their elders that their khakis and polos or suits and ties are inappropriate (unless in jest). Neither should they tell ours that our jeans, goatees, Converse sneakers, or earrings are.
[I'm honestly a bit baffled that this is being argued as an issue of "morality" (unless, of course, we're going the "everything is an issue of morality" route).] | | The Following User Says Thank You to raekwon For This Useful Post: | | 
05-03-2008, 03:12 PM
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Originally Posted by ericfromcowtown I remember my brother coming home one day, at 14 or 15, with an earring in one ear. My dad ignored my brother, turned to me and said "you know Eric there are two types of men who wear earrings, pirates and homosexuals, and you don't see too many pirates around any more." My brother turned on his heals and walked out of the room. We never did see that earring again.  | My cousin showed up at Sunday dinner one time with an earring. My grandfather said, "Let me get a closer look at that earring, Greg." My cousin leaned in for Papaw to get a better look. My grandfather grabbed the earring and yanked it out of his ear and said, "No grandson of mine will wear women's jewelry." Greg has never worn one since, and no other male in our family ever showed up with one until after my grandfather passed away. 
__________________ ~James Helbert~, Wytheville, VA
Providence Reformed Presbyterian Church, RPCUS TheBibleAlone.com / The Edinburgh Inn "Is this not a brand plucked from the fire?” - Zechariah 3:2 | 
05-03-2008, 04:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Archlute The culture which prevailed before relatively recent times when it then became marginally acceptable for men to wear women's jewelry in public. | As opposed to the one where it was acceptable to wear women's jewlry in private? 
__________________ Andrew DeShazo, Deacon, Associate Reformed Presbyterian Church, Memphis, TN "All of us stumble in many ways, but if anyone is never at fault in what he says, then he is mature, able to control his whole body."(James 3:2) | 
05-03-2008, 05:07 PM
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| | The only men that should be wearing ear rings are PIRATES.....arrrrrrrrrr!  | 
05-03-2008, 05:11 PM
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Originally Posted by Archlute Quote:
Originally Posted by ColdSilverMoon Quote:
Originally Posted by Archlute
The culture which prevailed before relatively recent times when it then became marginally acceptable for men to wear women's jewelry in public. | Take a look at some Renaissance era paintings and tell us if you still think earrings on men is a relatively recent phenomenon.
I don't wear earrings, but don't think there's anything good or bad about men wearing them... | In my days as an art student and a music major I have viewed plenty of Renaissance and Baroque era paintings and have not noticed the practice. However, I was speaking of American times where at least some influence of Christian/Puritan ideals were still influential. Which brings us to a broader discussion of cultural normativity in morality. Do we set our moral standards by cultural consensus, as seems to be argued here, or do we look for deeper principles that transcend the culture, such as those found in the various applications of the Decalogue in the Larger Catechism, inference from apostolic injunctions, and the careful writings of Puritan casuistry? We are still known here as the "Puritan Board", correct?
P.S. Were you looking at paintings of Ishmaelites?  |
Adam, does this suffice?
Ex 32:2-4
Aaron answered them, "Take off the gold earrings that your wives, your sons and your daughters are wearing, and bring them to me." So all the people took off their earrings and brought them to Aaron. He took what they handed him and made it into an idol cast in the shape of a calf, fashioning it with a tool.
Ezekiel 16:12-AV And I put a jewel on thy forehead, and earrings in thine ears, and a beautiful crown upon thine head.
And they gave unto Jacob all the strange gods which were in their hand, and all their earrings which were in their ears; and Jacob hid them under the oak which was by Shechem.
And they came, both men and women, as many as were willing hearted, and brought bracelets, and earrings, and rings, and tablets, all jewels of gold: and every man that offered offered an offering of gold unto the LORD.
We have therefore brought an oblation for the LORD, what every man hath gotten, of jewels of gold, chains, and bracelets, rings, earrings, and tablets, to make an atonement for our souls before the LORD.
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Once in a while you can get shown the light, in the strangest of places if you look at it right."
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05-03-2008, 05:18 PM
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| | | Earing is a fake! Quote:
Originally Posted by Southern Presbyterian Quote:
Originally Posted by ColdSilverMoon Quote:
Originally Posted by Archlute
P.S. Were you looking at paintings of Ishmaelites?  | No, just the greatest English writer of all time...  | Are you sure this pic is not photoshopped?  | The earing was added later, look here Quote: |
Studies indicate that the beard and hair in the portrait were lengthened by later painters and the earring was not part of the original painting.
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05-03-2008, 05:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Pilgrim's Progeny The earing was added later, look here Quote: |
Studies indicate that the beard and hair in the portrait were lengthened by later painters and the earring was not part of the original painting.
| | You forgot to quote this section as well...
"In 2006, Tarnya Cooper of the National Portrait Gallery completed a three-and-a-half-year study of the purported Shakespeare portraits and concluded that the Chandos portrait was the most likely to be a representation of Shakespeare. Cooper points to the earring and the loose shirt-ties of the sitter, which were emblematic of a poet." | 
05-03-2008, 05:34 PM
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Originally Posted by Amazing Grace Quote:
Originally Posted by Archlute Quote:
Originally Posted by ColdSilverMoon
Take a look at some Renaissance era paintings and tell us if you still think earrings on men is a relatively recent phenomenon.
I don't wear earrings, but don't think there's anything good or bad about men wearing them... | In my days as an art student and a music major I have viewed plenty of Renaissance and Baroque era paintings and have not noticed the practice. However, I was speaking of American times where at least some influence of Christian/Puritan ideals were still influential. Which brings us to a broader discussion of cultural normativity in morality. Do we set our moral standards by cultural consensus, as seems to be argued here, or do we look for deeper principles that transcend the culture, such as those found in the various applications of the Decalogue in the Larger Catechism, inference from apostolic injunctions, and the careful writings of Puritan casuistry? We are still known here as the "Puritan Board", correct?
P.S. Were you looking at paintings of Ishmaelites?  |
Adam, does this suffice?
Ex 32:2-4
Aaron answered them, "Take off the gold earrings that your wives, your sons and your daughters are wearing, and bring them to me." So all the people took off their earrings and brought them to Aaron. He took what they handed him and made it into an idol cast in the shape of a calf, fashioning it with a tool.
Ezekiel 16:12-AV And I put a jewel on thy forehead, and earrings in thine ears, and a beautiful crown upon thine head.
And they gave unto Jacob all the strange gods which were in their hand, and all their earrings which were in their ears; and Jacob hid them under the oak which was by Shechem.
And they came, both men and women, as many as were willing hearted, and brought bracelets, and earrings, and rings, and tablets, all jewels of gold: and every man that offered offered an offering of gold unto the LORD.
We have therefore brought an oblation for the LORD, what every man hath gotten, of jewels of gold, chains, and bracelets, rings, earrings, and tablets, to make an atonement for our souls before the LORD. | Ex 32:2-4 In this text the Israelites had just departed from Egypt, the mosaic law had not been given. Plus, I would not base a practice after the pattern of an idolustrous and stiff necked people.
Ezekiel 16:12 It would be a stretch to use this as a proof text for piercings for men given the overall context given.
Make your case from Ex. 21:6 and Dt. 15:17, I have seen those who have pieced their ears as a mark of being wholly givin to Christ's service. | 
05-03-2008, 05:35 PM
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Originally Posted by ColdSilverMoon Quote:
Originally Posted by Pilgrim's Progeny The earing was added later, look here Quote: |
Studies indicate that the beard and hair in the portrait were lengthened by later painters and the earring was not part of the original painting.
| | You forgot to quote this section as well...
"In 2006, Tarnya Cooper of the National Portrait Gallery completed a three-and-a-half-year study of the purported Shakespeare portraits and concluded that the Chandos portrait was the most likely to be a representation of Shakespeare. Cooper points to the earring and the loose shirt-ties of the sitter, which were emblematic of a poet." | You forgot to quote this section as well, Quote: |
However, she acknowledges that the painting's authenticity cannot be proven.[3]
| | 
05-03-2008, 05:38 PM
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| | | Doesn't that just mean that the authenticity of the painting as being the Bard cannot be proven but the dress and earring seem characteristic of a poet of that era? And, if so, isn't that the point?
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05-03-2008, 05:40 PM
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Originally Posted by DMcFadden Doesn't that just mean that the authenticity of the painting as being the Bard cannot be proven but the dress and earring seem characteristic of a poet of that era? And, if so, isn't that the point? | Exactly. | 
05-03-2008, 06:04 PM
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| | I found this thread helpful, it also answers the question  If he still holds the same view.
I personally do not care what people think of my style, so I am not overly critical of others. I try to be modest and orderly in my dress and try to ask the same of others. I try to focus on my own logs, most of the time. Yet, I still find myself picking at the specks of others before I deal with my logs, all too often.
I must admit that outward appearance does play a role in how I judge one's character upon first acquaintance. You can tell a lot about a person by how they style their self. Most stereotypes are the rule, and exceptions do come along from time to time, but not often. | | The Following User Says Thank You to Pilgrim's Progeny For This Useful Post: | | 
05-03-2008, 06:32 PM
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Originally Posted by Pilgrim's Progeny Quote:
Originally Posted by Amazing Grace Quote:
Originally Posted by Archlute
In my days as an art student and a music major I have viewed plenty of Renaissance and Baroque era paintings and have not noticed the practice. However, I was speaking of American times where at least some influence of Christian/Puritan ideals were still influential. Which brings us to a broader discussion of cultural normativity in morality. Do we set our moral standards by cultural consensus, as seems to be argued here, or do we look for deeper principles that transcend the culture, such as those found in the various applications of the Decalogue in the Larger Catechism, inference from apostolic injunctions, and the careful writings of Puritan casuistry? We are still known here as the "Puritan Board", correct?
P.S. Were you looking at paintings of Ishmaelites?  |
Adam, does this suffice?
Ex 32:2-4
Aaron answered them, "Take off the gold earrings that your wives, your sons and your daughters are wearing, and bring them to me." So all the people took off their earrings and brought them to Aaron. He took what they handed him and made it into an idol cast in the shape of a calf, fashioning it with a tool.
Ezekiel 16:12-AV And I put a jewel on thy forehead, and earrings in thine ears, and a beautiful crown upon thine head.
And they gave unto Jacob all the strange gods which were in their hand, and all their earrings which were in their ears; and Jacob hid them under the oak which was by Shechem.
And they came, both men and women, as many as were willing hearted, and brought bracelets, and earrings, and rings, and tablets, all jewels of gold: and every man that offered offered an offering of gold unto the LORD.
We have therefore brought an oblation for the LORD, what every man hath gotten, of jewels of gold, chains, and bracelets, rings, earrings, and tablets, to make an atonement for our souls before the LORD. | Ex 32:2-4 In this text the Israelites had just departed from Egypt, the mosaic law had not been given. Plus, I would not base a practice after the pattern of an idolustrous and stiff necked people.
Ezekiel 16:12 It would be a stretch to use this as a proof text for piercings for men given the overall context given.
Make your case from Ex. 21:6 and Dt. 15:17, I have seen those who have pieced their ears as a mark of being wholly givin to Christ's service. |
Its not up to me or anyone to dissect the verses provided to be dogmatic on the issue. Men had piercings and was not determined unlawful. Therefore it is not a stretch to denounce them as sinful or immoral by any means. The stiff neckedness idolatry is not at all connected to jewelry or dress. Perhaps ill have to have my wife take back all of her pants!!!  | 
05-03-2008, 07:06 PM
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Originally Posted by Amazing Grace Quote:
Originally Posted by Pilgrim's Progeny Quote:
Originally Posted by Amazing Grace
Adam, does this suffice?
Ex 32:2-4
Aaron answered them, "Take off the gold earrings that your wives, your sons and your daughters are wearing, and bring them to me." So all the people took off their earrings and brought them to Aaron. He took what they handed him and made it into an idol cast in the shape of a calf, fashioning it with a tool.
Ezekiel 16:12-AV And I put a jewel on thy forehead, and earrings in thine ears, and a beautiful crown upon thine head.
And they gave unto Jacob all the strange gods which were in their hand, and all their earrings wh
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