Hello my friends

every so often I talk to other Christians about worldlliness and I get this reply:

- when it's about the way we dress, and about having tatoos and earrings (for guys) and gangsta blue jeans, I get the "we should dress like Jesus, and then we are sure we're good, everything in between is grey area, so we should avoid it". This is what those who don't "judge" that are saying.
- at times I get the "well, we don't know their heart, only the Lord does", so again, let's leave them alone. "We don't want to be legalists, right?"
- when it's about music (corporate singing), the drums and loud guitars are ok, because "once the hymns were considered worldly, too".

For me this is moral relativism.
I am speechless.

What do you guys think?

This is mostly related to a Calvary Chapel church, and from what I've seen there, it's ok to look like the world. We're relevant. And mostly, we shouldn't "judge" the others...

Thank you so much for your thoughts

Cristian

__________________
Cristian
Reformed church in San Diego (still looking)
Blog: http://nothingbetween.wordpress.com

He took me out of mud and let me walk on marble - Pastor Erwin Lutzer

Clean and modest is acceptable attire for a Christian. There is a thin line between binding the conscience and antinomianism.

__________________
Rich Koster
1689'er
Browns Mills NJ USA
Often Goofy Reformed Eccentric
Romans 7:14-25

How bout that wacky new avatar, Rich!



"The Reverend Al Sharpton attacked President Bush, saying he ruined the economy. For instance, Sharpton hasn't been able to find a job in over 46 years." —Craig Kilborn

"Today's Washington Post says that of the nine Democratic presidential candidates, Wesley Clark has the most presidential hairstyle. Not only that but the Post said that Al Sharpton had the best hairstyle of a first lady." —Conan O'Brien

Poor Al Sharpton, he only got 345 votes total in the New Hampshire primary. Here's a tip Al, when you're driving around the small white, conservative states, turn down the bass." —Bill Maher

"Last night during a Democratic presidential debate, candidates John Kerry, John Edwards and Howard Dean all admitted they had smoked marijuana and Al Sharpton admitted that his barber smokes marijuana." —Conan O'Brien

Al Sharpton said the Democratic Party has to stop treating blacks as their mistresses. Sharpton then explained a mistress is where they take you out to have fun, but they don't take you home. Was that really necessary to explain what a mistress is to Democrats?" —Jay Leno

"Over the weekend, Al Sharpton hosted Saturday Night Live on NBC for an hour-and-a-half — the longest job he has ever had." —Craig Kilborn

"Democratic presidential candidate Wesley Clark has started giving out Clark bars at his rallies as souvenirs. Not to be outdone, candidate Al Sharpton continues to eat, and be, Nutrageous." —Tina Fey, Saturday Night Live's "Weekend Update"


Sorry, back to your regularly scheduled programming now...

__________________
Michael Turner
Christ Reformed Church | Independent [WCF]
Georgia

If we see evil in the pagan world around us, we can call evil, evil. We see all sorts of worldliness in our culture and the people in our culture, and we are called to speak the truth in love.

However, speaking of others requires great care. When we speak, we should speak not in pride or in condescension or to gossip. We can speak for the sake of righteousness or godliness, and we can also show concern for the souls of those people.

The Bible does say that actions show what is heart.

Luke 6:45
45The good man brings good things out of the good stored up in his heart, and the evil man brings evil things out of the evil stored up in his heart. For out of the overflow of his heart his mouth speaks.

-----Added 10/18/2009 at 08:29:59 EST-----



"For me" seems like a relativistic way of saying it

__________________
Josh
URC
Sioux Center, IA
www.christianhomeschoolstore.com

If men dressed like Jesus, they'd all be wearing tunics. Tunics look a lot like dresses to me. I don't want to wear a tunic, and I don't think Jesus has called me to.

__________________
Jon Adams
Member of Grace Bible Church
Pleasant Hill, CA

While we're on this subject... why are tatoos wrong? Personally I'd never have one because I don't agree with marking your body.. but I don't really have a biblical reason for that belief.

__________________
Bern
Evangelical
Kent UK

1. Do they know how Jesus dressed?
2. Do they dress that way?
3. Where does the Bible say everyone should dress like Jesus?
4. Does that go for the women too?

Don't we? Like Josh quoted, "out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh". If we're honest with ourselves and them, it's not too hard(usually) to tell if they're really saved or not.

And if they claim to be saved, then there's nothing wrong with correcting them on a subject where they're clearly wrong, so long as it's done in a biblical way.

It's not the worldliness(though that could come into play too) so much as it is that they don't promote a worshipful attitude. Sure, they get your adrenaline running, but that's not "worship".

__________________
Jonathan
Audio Engineer
Reformed Anabaptist
Ohio

Moroni's magical glasses of proper interpretation:

Is "looking like the world" really a matter of tattoos, earrings, "gangsta blue jeans" (huh?), and loud drums and guitars?

Honest question.

__________________
Rae W. | Elder @ Grace Central Presbyterian Church | Columbus, OH
Online presence: blog | twitter | facebook

"Man looks at the outward appearance but the Lord looks at the heart."
1 Samuel 16:7

__________________
Shalom,
jessi
PCA
Steelers fan exiled to Virginia


“Whatever your heart clings to and confides in, that is really your God.”
Martin Luther

But let us also remember this verse. It is not directly related to clothing, but it does link the heart with outward behavior:

Mar 7:20 And he said, That which cometh out of the man, that defileth the man.
Mar 7:21 For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders,
Mar 7:22 Thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness:
Mar 7:23 All these evil things come from within, and defile the man.

__________________
Tim Lindsay
member, Covenant Reformed Presbyterian Church, Halifax, NS, Canada
Living in Cape Town, South Africa
"under the Southern Cross, at the foot of Table Mountain, not far from the Cape of Good Hope"

There are some theonomians that want (Christian) men to shave like Jesus!

I.e. Don't!

We do know of course from Scripture that Jesus had a beard - when He grew up.

__________________
Richard
communicant member, FCoS
Perth, Scotland UK

His Name forever shall endure;
last like the sun it shall:
Men shall be blessed in Him,
and blessed all nations shall Him call (Ps. 72:17)

Christians should dress modestly and honor God with their bodies. Using the comment "we should dress like Jesus" is just silly and self-righteous.

__________________
John
Member
Christ Presbyterian Church (OPC)
Salt Lake City, Utah
www.christpres.net

I've got better things to fret about.

__________________
Jim
1689 LBCF
Independent Bible Church
North Texas, USA

Like your high quality Havana cigars, your palatial yacht and your Swiss bank account.

What does it mean to "dress like Jesus?"

__________________
Ben
Chaplain, US Army
Ft. Riley, KS
TE Ohio Valley Presbytery, PCA

my experience has been that when Christians start trying to tell others how to dress, what to listen to, how to style their hair, etc it stems more out of a spirit of self-righteousness than a desire for true holiness. How would dressing up make one closer to God?
When God apprehends a person's heart and they are truly transformed there (the heart) then everything else will take care of itself, including how to dress, what entertainment to enjoy, and on and on. Afterall, the heart is what God is truly after.

__________________
Andrew S.
Covenant Presbyterian Church (OPC)
Abilene,TX

It is a question of modesty and somewhat a question of freedom in Christ. I am allowed to wear "gangsta jeans" but I dont out of personal reasons. Look at godly men like Lecrae who wears baggy clothing in order to reach a certain group. It is the same as if I were going to minister to homeless people in Calcutta I would dress differently than if I were going to minister to bankers in NY. More thought later but it is lunch time and then a meeting afterward.

__________________
Joseph F Scibbe
Chaplain Assistant
Chapel of Wings Ft Rucker Al
Ephesians 1:4-7, 1 Thessalonians 2:8, Romans 12:1-2
Titus 2:2 - But you, teach what accords with sound doctrine.

http://twitter.com/just_joe_scibbe

I don't think we are talking about "evil" clothes, though. And the only moral attributes of clothes I can think of are modesty and pride. Are there other ways to judge clothes in a moral sense? What does an evil shirt look like? I think if the shirt is immodest or is worn to better your status compared to your neighbor, then it is worn in evil. Otherwise, wear what you have.

In some of our churches it may be rare to see a poor person, so the favoritism of rich may not come down to what they are wearing. And on the converse, the person wearing shabby clothes may not be poor, but just has a bad sense of style/disinterest in clothing. BUT, I notice that this passage does not go on to say, "And please show love to this poor person by buying him fine clothes, because to be in the presence of the King he must be presentable."

I believe we who think clothing matter are actually buying into the world and not the Gospel.

It is leading up to something.......

That's one of the concepts that the Lord used to free me from that place!



I hope y'all understand what I was trying to say - I haven't yet figured out how to divide a quote to answer it in sections!

__________________
Sue Scott
First Evangelical Presbyterian Church - PCA
East Liverpool Ohio

John Owen wore silk stockings and high-heeled shoes, and any young woman would have been proud to have his hairstyle, and we know he was godly.

Well like most men in his time he wore a wig. Not unlike our resident wigmeister.

__________________
Benjamin P. Glaser, M. Div, Licentiate, Associate Reformed Presbyterian Church
Member Fairmount ARP Church
Pittsburgh, PA

Deo Vindice

I dress exactly how Jesus dressed..... I wear the fashion of the day.

__________________
sarah
WI
OPC
My Pastor's Sermons: Mark Jenkins...he's awesome!!!

Much of what we see is what is culturally acceptable. Rebellion against authority is rebellion against God unless the authority is contradicting the Bible in anything, or adding to it in those items concerning faith or worship (WCF 20.2). While we are free in those areas, we are not totally free of the doctrines and commands of men. We are bound by those things commanded by authority upon which the Bible is silent (we may not drive 40 miles and hour in a 25 MPH zone). The Bible does not say anything about speed limits, yet we are bound to obey those in authority.

So when a child disobeys his or her parents, they are violating God's law, even if the parents are saying to a young woman they must wear a dress that leaves only her ankles showing. If a young man's parents tell him to wear slacks that are snug on his waste just above the hips, and a belt to make sure the pants do not sag down, and legs long enough to come down to his shoe tops with his legs bent at the knee 30 degrees, then that is what he must wear. If his parents insist on a "1-2-3" haircut, then that is what he must wear. If parents insist on a daughter wearing her hair long to the shoulder, cut bangs, and off her face, then that is what she must wear.

When a person wears clothing in defiance of authority, they are wrong (as long as the authority is not saying to be immodest). For those that have not authority watching and caring for them, it is much more difficult a situation. They have to be sensitive to what is culturally acceptable, and wear what will adorn the name of Christ.

__________________
Brian Withnell
Deacon, OPC
Leesburg, Virginia

You cannot train for war in the midst of a battle. Prepare before the battle starts; if the battle is long and hard, you will wish you had.

If I dressed exactly as Jesus dressed, there are five months of the year that would kill me if I went outside.
Climate makes a difference too.

__________________
In Christ's love and service

Mr. Tim Cunningham,
BMus. (Trombone Performance), University of Toronto
Dip. CS, Regent College, Vancouver
Member, First Baptist Church
Vancouver, BC
------------
"I once sat in darkness, and waited for the moon to rise.
I once sat in darkness, and waited for the sun to shine.
I once sat in darkness, when all the light I'd waited for was gone.
Then Jesus came, and now the only true light, ever, shines in me."
– John Deacon -

you didn't get what i was saying

This is true about everything. I am not sure what you are really saying about clothes. Was this just an aside, as in, "Remember, no matter what, the kids should be listening to their parents and the wives their husbands"?
If so, I totally agree.

Whoops sorry, I hit the reply to button on the wrong post. I had thought I was replying to the OP!

In the early 1980's when some started wearing tennis shoes to Church to be comfortable I did not favor the trend. It seemed to me that the ones to do it were trying to come off as a little more cool then the rest of us. I have mellowed but still have made it a goal to never wear tennis shoes to Church on the Lord's Day. My dress shoes are not uncomfortable and I'm not planning to run down for a alter call anytime soon.

__________________
Alan Hughes
PCA
Lake Zurich, Illinois

If you think I'm a Hyper-Calvinist, God planned that thought before the foundation of the Earth. If you try to tell me that God only planned some things and not all things, then your problem is with God not me.

Face it. We do make a statement by how we dress. Our dress can communicate disrespect and rebelliousness. But it can also communicate self-righteousness and exclusiveness. It may be compliance with the world. But it can also be compliance with what is worst about the church. We do well to make wise choices that avoid both errors, and probably also to worry less about how others make those choices.

__________________
Jack K.
PCA, worshiping with some fine Baptists in Colorado

if you shared this anecdote simply for the sake of sharing, then thank you for an interesting point of view. However, if you were sharing this because you want to make the point that tennis shoes are unacceptable at church, then i strongly disagree with you. By all means, if you prefer your dress shoes, then you should certainly continue to wear them. BUT, in no way can anyone make the argument that tennis shoes are wholly unacceptable at church.