Thread: Disstress-call from Denmark

I preached thuesday and a guy put up his hand during my talk on apologetics and in a few sentences said something to the effect of:
"I do not think all this with reason and argumnets is good for the faith, I know christianity is true because Jesus is in my heart"

And then yesterday I received an email from him, where at the end of a line of very bad arguments he says:
"Even if they found Jesus`s body and proved that it was his, I would still believe, that he had risen and sits in heaven."

So you see I need help over here, when are you comming?

How cold is the winter?

about 14 F
or -10 degress

Rats. I'll have to pass.

Originally Posted by Re4mdant

. . . So you see I need help over here, when are you comming?

I sympathize with you, brother. But we find the same type things over here. . . and it's much warmer.

Can we send books instead? Seriously.

Ah man, I will buy you a big jacket

We're right here. What more do you want?

Originally Posted by Scottish Lass

Can we send books instead? Seriously.

Yeah you could, but most people, even young ones do not read that much, and espescialy not english.
But Very good and short articles that I could be allowed to translate and put on my web-page could be good.
But if you have very good short books or booklets, please by all means send them, it could really be good, if I had something I could pass out to the people who would be interested, when I go out to preach.

-----Added 3/20/2009 at 01:14:13 EST-----

Originally Posted by Skyler

We're right here. What more do you want?

And I am very grateful for it, I seriously think that if I did not have this place to come and be able to just "hang out" amongst people of the same convictions as me, without having to be ready to defend myself all the time, I would go crazy.

Originally Posted by Re4mdant

Ah man, I will buy you a big jacket

Thanks, Martin! The cold unfortunately would be a major issue with my wife's health.

Some time ago we were trying to get someone to go as a missionary to Iceland.

What is your website?

5solas.dk

It is still on creation basis, and right now I am preaching so much that I have no time to write for it.

That could be a good problem.

Not sure if this is what you're looking for or if this is helpful, but it is short.

Q&A: Why Reformed Theology? Thlibo

The book "Faith Has its Reasons" lists 4 categories of apologetic:

Classic, which appeals to logic and reason, and which is exemplified by, say, Aquinas.

Evidentialist, which appeals to empirical facts, and is exemplified by Joseph Butler

Reformed, which is basically presuppositional and starts with the authority of scripture, and which is exemplified by Calvin and Van Til.

Fideist, which appeals to personal experience, and which the book claims is exemplified by Martin Luther and Soren Kierkegaard.

All four are valid. It sounds like your guy is Fideist. What's wrong with that? It's almost like Paul's argument in Galatians: "did you receive the Spirit by works of the law or by hearing with faith?" In other words, what's your experience? Some people distrust rational arguments, because they think it exalts logic or human reasoning over faith in God's Word.

Martin,

I would be willing to write for your website. You can check mine out here:

Beholding the Beauty: Positive Dogmatics

I would also be willing to write short reformed tracts for you to translate into Danish. Also, maybe some day I could visit and help you pass those reformed tracts around. Let's keep in touch.

Blessings,

Sven

Martin, try looking on Monergism.com. They have lots of short papers and such. Perhaps you will find something there you can translate into Danish.

Originally Posted by Sven

Martin,

I would be willing to write for your website. You can check mine out here:

Beholding the Beauty: Positive Dogmatics

I would also be willing to write short reformed tracts for you to translate into Danish. Also, maybe some day I could visit and help you pass those reformed tracts around. Let's keep in touch.

Blessings,

Sven

I would very much like that, thank you brother.

-----Added 3/20/2009 at 01:40:22 EST-----

Originally Posted by Marrow Man

Martin, try looking on Monergism.com. They have lots of short papers and such. Perhaps you will find something there you can translate into Danish.

Yes I have talked with him and have gotten his permission to do that, + if you look at my page it has almost the same headlines as Monergism, so I have borrowed headlines I knew worked instead of trying to do my own, why invent the wheel twice?

C.S. Lewis speaks of a very similar situation he encountered when speaking to a Royal Air Force group. I don't remember it exactly but he uses the analogy of theology being the map which guides us. Might be worth checking out.

Originally Posted by Re4mdant

I preached thuesday and a guy put up his hand during my talk on apologetics and in a few sentences said something to the effect of:
"I do not think all this with reason and argumnets is good for the faith, I know christianity is true because Jesus is in my heart"

And then yesterday I received an email from him, where at the end of a line of very bad arguments he says:
"Even if they found Jesus`s body and proved that it was his, I would still believe, that he had risen and sits in heaven."

So you see I need help over here, when are you comming?

I just read something from Bavinck this a.m. that would address this...if I forget to post it, and you want the info, don't hesitate to PM me...I just don't have the book at my disposal at the moment.

Originally Posted by Re4mdant

5solas.dk

It is still on creation basis, and right now I am preaching so much that I have no time to write for it.

ha! I tried to read that! Did part of it say,"Over half a century ago, Donald Grey Barnhouse, priest at Philadelphia's 10th Presbyterian Church, went of CBS public radio and said...something of your city...Satan wants to overtake control of America."

HAHAHA. Probably not! But that was fun!

"Over et halvt århundrede siden gav, Donald Grey Barnhouse, præst i Philadelphia’s tiende presbyterianske kirke, sit CBS radio publikum et andet billede af, hvordan det ville se ud, hvis Satan overtog kontrolen med en by i Amerika."

Originally Posted by Re4mdant

I preached thuesday and a guy put up his hand during my talk on apologetics and in a few sentences said something to the effect of:
"I do not think all this with reason and argumnets is good for the faith, I know christianity is true because Jesus is in my heart"

Amen to the second and to the first.

Reason and logic can do nothing but further prove the faith. This is because God is the standard of logic and reasoning. Therefore, just as God cannot contradict himself, logic cannot do anything but support faith.

On that note, faith does precede logical argumentation, according to the presuppositional view.

And then yesterday I received an email from him, where at the end of a line of very bad arguments he says:
"Even if they found Jesus`s body and proved that it was his, I would still believe, that he had risen and sits in heaven."

Ah, but because science/logic/reason come from God, we can know that they never will "prove" that Jesus' dead body is still lying around on Earth somewhere. Otherwise, God would be contradicting Himself, which we know He doesn't do.

Ask this person why God created us with logical, orderly minds in the first place, if not to discover more truth about Him? And if that's why he gave us logic and reasoning, then by not doing so are we fulfilling His purpose for us?

Well this guy would describe "faith" as over and above logic

Logic and arguments will lead you away from the faith in the heart, he wrote me a friends personal story about that in the mail he sent me

Originally Posted by Re4mdant

Well this guy would describe "faith" as over and above logic

Logic and arguments will lead you away from the faith in the heart, he wrote me a friends personal story about that in the mail he sent me

Faith *precedes* logic. Logic leads you in the right direction only if you acknowledge that God is the source and ultimate authority of logic. If you deny that and set up logic as a separate entity, as is common among atheists/agnostics, then yes, it certainly can do that.

EDIT: So what I'm saying is, yes, you must have faith. Without faith, logic and arguments certainly can lead you astray.

Originally Posted by louis_jp

The book "Faith Has its Reasons" lists 4 categories of apologetic:

Classic, which appeals to logic and reason, and which is exemplified by, say, Aquinas.

Evidentialist, which appeals to empirical facts, and is exemplified by Joseph Butler

Reformed, which is basically presuppositional and starts with the authority of scripture, and which is exemplified by Calvin and Van Til.

Fideist, which appeals to personal experience, and which the book claims is exemplified by Martin Luther and Soren Kierkegaard.

All four are valid. It sounds like your guy is Fideist. What's wrong with that? It's almost like Paul's argument in Galatians: "did you receive the Spirit by works of the law or by hearing with faith?" In other words, what's your experience? Some people distrust rational arguments, because they think it exalts logic or human reasoning over faith in God's Word.

Well the problem with this "fideist" is that he wants to present Christianity as first helpful/meaningful and then second as true.
As if making it helpful would "warm up" the crowed.

Shaeffer said first to present it as true.
I mean if we go the way of this guy then the budist would be just as right as we are, as goes the being helpful part.
I am not denying that it is helpful, but that is not why we believe it or want others to believe it.
We want them to believe it because it is TRUE!

The other stuf is subjective and invalid because it is un-falsifiable.

Martin:

I am personally thankful for you and your faithful testimony. And so I do not think we should be discouraged when our teaching or convictions are not embraced right away. Many people on this board would testify to the years of struggling they had with the doctrines of grace, so be encouraged. Pray often for these wayward men and women that you have an opportunity to witness to. Be thankful and praise God that a door has been opened.

In answer to your question 1 Corinthians 15 comes to mind. Paul puts much weight on the evidence for Christ's resurrection. Without that and the gospel proclamation how does the testimony of this gentlemen differ from Mormons (burning in the bosom) or any other cult/religion that establishes their message on how it makes them feel?

Also faith itself, though not established by logic and reason, is not against reason. It is the word of faith that is preached (Romans 10:8) that will (by the Spirit's power) bring about the faith in the heart. The content of that word, at least in part, is according to logic and reason as is demonstrated by Paul's address to Athenian philosophers (Acts 17) & many of Jesus' dialogues with the Pharisees from scripture (example: Luke 20:41-44).

Well, you know the guy you're dealing with, I don't.

I do think it's important, though, to emphasize that truth comes from God's Word. Therefore, one can, and should, believe and accept it, as true, on its own authority. Some people want to go further and show how it is also logical to believe God's Word, and how it comports with scientific reasoning, etc., which is perfectly fine; but others don't see the need to do that. I would not dismiss a person's views simply because they distrust rational argumentation on these things.

If the guy is getting into subjectivism, that's another matter.

Originally Posted by Re4mdant

"Even if they found Jesus`s body and proved that it was his, I would still believe, that he had risen and sits in heaven."

Not quite the attitude Paul contemplates: if Christ was not raised, you are still in your sins. If it wasn't a bodily resurrection, then there is no redemption for your body.

Thanks for posting your site.

Originally Posted by Re4mdant

I preached thuesday and a guy put up his hand during my talk on apologetics and in a few sentences said something to the effect of:
"I do not think all this with reason and argumnets is good for the faith, I know christianity is true because Jesus is in my heart"

And then yesterday I received an email from him, where at the end of a line of very bad arguments he says:
"Even if they found Jesus`s body and proved that it was his, I would still believe, that he had risen and sits in heaven."

So you see I need help over here, when are you comming?

Emotional attachments to a Jesus made in one's own image are hard idols to chisel out of people's hands......

Ruben hit the key here Martin. Christianity is not based on a strong feeling or belief, it is not dependent on man's response. Christianity is first and foremost the historical facts that in the time of Tiberius, Herod and Quirinius, God sent His son into the world as an atonement for sins. He was crucified and rose again in the time of the governor Pontius Pilate. These are not convictions, they are not doctrines arrived at by common convention, these are historical facts.

As God grants us repentance and a quickening then we are able to make a cognitive commitment that because of these historical events we may believe that we have been redeemed and reconciled by these events.

Martin, I checked out your website. You have a great start. I used google translator to read it and I know there are other programs like that which you could use to help with translation work.

Keep up the good work.

Praying for you brother Martin that

"...the word of God (will) continue to increase, and the number of the disciples (will be) multiplied greatly in Jerusalem, (Skive) and a great many of the priests became obedient to the faith."(Acts 6:7 ESV)

Originally Posted by Re4mdant

Originally Posted by Scottish Lass

Can we send books instead? Seriously.

Yeah you could, but most people, even young ones do not read that much, and espescialy not english.
But Very good and short articles that I could be allowed to translate and put on my web-page could be good.
But if you have very good short books or booklets, please by all means send them, it could really be good, if I had something I could pass out to the people who would be interested, when I go out to preach.

-----Added 3/20/2009 at 01:14:13 EST-----

Originally Posted by Skyler

We're right here. What more do you want?

And I am very grateful for it, I seriously think that if I did not have this place to come and be able to just "hang out" amongst people of the same convictions as me, without having to be ready to defend myself all the time, I would go crazy.

You are one of the coolest Lutherans I know in cyberspace. The last group of Lutherans I ran into in cyberspace advised me that if I continued to embrace the views of John Calvin and remained unrepentant I would spend eternity in Hell. You are a breath of fresh air compared to those men.

You are one of the coolest Lutherans I know in cyberspace.

to that!

You Guys are making me but I would like to say again that I am so very thankful that I have you guys and girls.
You are the "the sofa" I come to sit in to feel at home

Thanks for all the encouragements and prayer, they are needed.