Thread: Creeds without deeds

Hello;

I thought I would throw this out for thought.


Rich, you wrote a fine piece saying the following:

It is said, often, that American Evangelicals are "overfed". That is, they get plenty of teaching but the problem is that they don't act. We're told today that we need less creeds and more deeds.



I believe this is a false dichotomy. Church people are disillusioned because they do not see the church impacting the world.

We do not need less creeds and more deeds. We need more deeds due to these creeds.


It is very evident to many that those who hold most tightly to the creeds should, but do not, surpass their shallow peers in works. This should not be so.

Those who hold the purest truth ought to be the most diligent to spread it. We who hold to God's grace ought to be the most gracious people and we who have had God's blessings poured upon us ought to be the hardest working pouring these blessings on others.

• Instead, we are more apt to criticise efforts them take part in them.
  We can list all the errors of other Christians and why we should not join in their efforts. But where are our efforts?
• We mistake "discernment" for a critical spirit.
• We think we are doing missions work when we plant a "Truly Reformed" church in a town that already has 25 churches. Then we have to prove the point that none of these churches preach the :Gospel".
  When our preaching is distasteful or...gasp...boring and people don't want to come, we blame our closed down churches on the hardness of people's hearts rather than the faults of the preacher.
  We are often more successful in splitting churches and drying them up and closing their doors then plnating them.
  When a broad reformed faith is not enough, we add adherance to secondaries. Then sometimes we add tertiary issues as requirements of fellowship. Pretty soon we end up as reformed, unaltered WCF, presup, theonomiest, homes-schooling, EP, and etc and wonder why only 6 people show up every Sunday.
• We ignore millions who truly do starve for the Word (half the world's languages have no Scripture) and concentrate our efforts primarily with arguing with Arminians

.



How about Creeds AND Deeds!?!?!


Not the fluffy,shallow, deed-driven, no-theology variety of faith in the US, and not the sit-on-your-butt and read the Puritans for days on end but never make any holy efforts lazy faith of the Reformed, but a thoroughly evangelistic calvinism.

The symbol of Christianity, after all, is a cross not a cusion.



So, how about it - CREEDS AND DEEDS. Creeds leading to deeds. A hard working faith. Faith without works is dead. Let's have a live faith.

I'm preaching from the book of James presently.

Faith works!

Pergamum,

Obviously you didn't think my article was very good if you think that I was advocating a dead faith. I don't know why you particularly relish claiming that it is somehow a symptom of Reformed thought that deeds are devalued over creeds.

The point of the article was to show that when you dry up the creed you dry up the deed. Why? Because only the creed enables the deed. I just got done teaching Romans 12 yesterday. It was after teaching for half a year through the first eleven chapters of Romans on the doctrine of the Gospel. Eleven Chapters of a "Creed". Make no mistake about it, when I say Creed I'm talking about what we believe.

Paul, in other words, doesn't even start talking about Christian living until he establishes what a Christian is. "In view of God's mercy..." is a consistent refrain in Paul. It is upon the motivation of our redemption that our deeds flow - toward men in the Church, toward our neighbors, toward our enemies, toward the government, toward weaker brethren, etc.

In view of what mercy Paul? That's the question most Evangelicals aren't really interested in. I'll upload Romans 12 later if you want to listen to what I said about our deeds.

The idea that deeds flow from faith is apparently obvious to the casual observer. The problem that we have with American Evangelicalism is that they are no longer interested in the Gospel that produces life that leads to transformed living. I've often noted to my Sunday School class that you don't see trees bearing down trying to bear fruit. Fruit is the natural result of a living tree.

What I noted holds - the American Church is starved for the Gospel and that includes many Churches with a Reformed pedigree who are supplanting it with therapeutic sermons or "do this an live" practical living sermons. You really ought to listen to the White Horse Inn's interviews of "on the street" Evangelicals who cannot even articulate what Justification is. Some have never heard of it. This is why their teens, in large numbers, are becoming Deists.

So, sure, you'll have some Civic virtue flow out of some of these Deists. After all, God wants us to be nice to each other. But what you won't see is Christian zeal coming out of them. You won't see a zeal for righteousness coming out of people still dead in their sins and tresspasses. That's because the Law (love God with all your heart and your neighbor as yourself) does not convert the heart. The Gospel does that.

Rich;

Yes, I read your whole article. Actually I read it twice (you've got the gift, bro, I'll read everything you write! The Lord has enabled you mightily.)

It is a fine article. I truly mean that.

I just wanted to make sure you advocated the well and source of good works and also the result...good works.


We of all people ought to be stressing good works. Often, however, we cannot do this without saying, "Well....you know...it's not good works that;'s important after all....the are merely the result..." Yes, that is true - but what a group stresses is significant. And if we stress "creeds not deeds", then that is exactly that we will get. An ivory tower faith that cogitates and theorizes and does not actually get out and make ambitious efforts for the Gospel.

Sometimes we go paint our theological fences all day and never try to bring anyone inside our gates.


You know well that I possess the sad conviction that the reformed lag behind the armianians and the cults in the outward expression of their zeal. I believe that my conviction is based in fact. We, on a whole, do less than other groups to get out and advance the Gospel. Our Gospel is purer, yet less people hear about it.

You know that I take jabs at my own tradition, because I love it and it hurts me, that others often race ahead of us reformed in zeal while we are arguing over very fine points in doctrine sometimes. I have gone to Reformed churches that get SOOoo wrapped up in minors that their idea of missions is to plant an EP, presup, original WCF church in Alabama. Or most of their energy is spent preaching sermons against every cult so that people learn primarily to explain the Gospel by what it is not.

Even on the other side of the world, over here, I had someone hand me a caricature of the local presby church. It was of a man with a huge head, a fat belly, and ridiculopusly short legs.

The local man said, "THis is the Presbyterian church in my country... a head full of knowledge but no legs to go tell anyone..."




So, I agree with your article. Now, I would love to see another one saying, "Now that you know the proper source of deeds...let's get out and produce some deeds...:

Guild - an organization of persons with related interests, goals, etc., esp. one formed for mutual aid or protection.

The way I see it, the reformed community (and particularly the PB) is a guild which uses it's skills to protect the creeds, confessions and the authority of Scripture. After all, 'Scripture is the ultimate authority and source of truth' is both a confession and a creed. There are plenty of churches and para-church organizations that stress evangelism, missions and deeds of 'soul winning'. These are deeds of necessity and means by which the Gospel is preached and the Kingdom is spread.

There are not enough churches or para-church groups that emphasize protecting the creeds. As Rich has said, the creeds are the foundation for deeds.

We see this most dramatically in the homosexual controversies springing up in almost all denominations of Christianity. We are surprised to see such a blatant ignoring of biblical principle but it's not like somebody just decided to ignore scripture. Years ago before anyone would even consider homosexual bishops, groups decided that the Scriptures were not authoritative. The consequences were neither immediate nor dramatic but change began - a slide toward liberalism.

What we see happening in liberal churches now is the result of a creedal shift that happened in a once conservative church many years ago. Today the creed is "All you need is love" and the deeds that follow are a nullification of the Gospel message and a false gospel of universal inclusion.

The guild is a minority but for the sake of the visible church and the spread of the gospel, the guild must be vocal and bold sticklers for orthodoxy and protectors of the creeds and confessions. It's a dirty job, but someone's gotta do it.

Ha, Bob....you always have a friendly way to put things. How can I argue with an explanation like that?


Except that this would mean that we are not primarily interested in evangelism, but in guarding our doctrinal hedges....


But, even so, I love you guys at the PB... just let them other guys go soul-winnin'.....

Originally Posted by Pergamum

But, even so, I love you guys at the PB... just let them other guys go soul-winnin'.....

Not everyone is an eyeball man.

Originally Posted by Pergamum

Ha, Bob....you always have a friendly way to put things. How can I argue with an explanation like that?


Except that this would mean that we are not primarily interested in evangelism, but in guarding our doctrinal hedges....


But, even so, I love you guys at the PB... just let them other guys go soul-winnin'.....

Don't know about all that. I think we are interested in Evangelism or would you propose we boot you off the board.

To me, the Creeds are all about making me hungry to proclaim truth. I had a man return to our Church recently after being gone for a while and I was teaching Sunday School and teaching our surety of salvation and the transforming work of the Gospel that impels our hearts to praise and then service.

He said they had returned because our Church was where the Gospel was at while others on the island are giving lots of "Purpose Driven" messages, our evangelism is PROMISE driven!

I honestly don't believe that many souls "won" these days are being redeemed for Christ. The Franklin Graham crusade came and went. Some of those "converts" were placed in Catholic Churches and Oneness Pentecostal Churches - by the so called "soul winning, it's just about Jesus" Graham ministry. That's shameful!

Real Christianity is about blood and sweat. It's more than "sharing" your faith. It's about bringing them into the Church where they can be fed and discipled.

For me, I proclaim Creeds so that the orthodox will be transformed and be hungry to go out and bring others in. I teach so they will not be shocked when the world hates the very Good News but rejoices when another man receives it with joy.

This has never been a board for armchair theology. I want men transformed by the Gospel but I also believe that the excrement that others pass for the Gospel these days, with zeal, is destructive. I've seen the results of "new measures" firsthand and I hate the fruit.

I had a dear brother in Christ the other day tell me that he was very thankful for the teaching at the Church. He had grown up in the Phillipines where Benny Hinn is held in high regard. He said that considering the Scriptures teaching on the nature of God and the Gospel has opened his eyes and given him joy in his salvation. He said, further, that he was ashamed of the things he used to do thinking he was glorifying God. I reminded him that we all have reason for shame before God but it is Christ that redeems us and that discipleship is all about growth.

Problem is, that everybody is looking for the lowest common denominator these days and saying: "I know Christ commanded us to teach them everything but what is really the minimum?" That is NOT Christianity.

Pergamum,
I agree with your original post. To whom much is given,much is required.When I read what you posted I took it is as a call to self examination to see if I am not looking,and praying for gospel opportunities.
Sometimes just being friendly and talkative will help get a conversation going.Here in the northeast USA there are so many people from other countries here that just getting them talking about the homeland they left,lends itself to an inquiry about their theology,or lack thereof.
If we become over-fed sheep we are not doing what we were told to do.Spugeon preached a great sermon on numbers32:23 on the great sin of doing nothing.
I would believe most of the brethren in here would be more than active in the areas they occupy for The Lord.

Originally Posted by SemperFideles

Problem is, that everybody is looking for the lowest common denominator these days and saying: "I know Christ commanded us to teach them everything but what is really the minimum?" That is NOT Christianity.

And so frequently this is exactly the problem... we don't want to press too much upon people; don't want to make them uncomfortable. We never seem to want to ask them to count the cost, and tell them that in coming to Christ they are submitting to Him as Lord (and not just getting Hell insurance). There is so much zeal to get them in the door that belief statements become "I believe in Jesus" and go no further than that. The less we ask of them the higher our "success rate" will be... never mind what happens after that.

Read this conversation in light of Matthew 23:15, and think about some of what has been said.

All of the zeal in the world means nothing if, as Rich has been trying to emphasize, it is not first grounded on a foundational orthodoxy. The fact that the Pharisees traversed land and sea to make converts only added to their own guilt, as well as to the condemnation of those who followed their teaching. Much of the zeal in the evangelical world is fruitless for the building of Christ's kingdom, because the preaching of the true Christ is absent, an understanding of the true Gospel is absent, and even a basic understanding of the Law that leads them to despair of their own righteousness is absent.

Likewise, although your overseas acquaintance my have caricatured the local Presbyterian church as he did, does that really mean that they are being sluggish and unfaithful? It very well may be that they are faithful week in and week out to proclaim the Gospel, observe the sacraments, and live as a holy witness to God's grace before the community, but that this sort of Christianity is not what interests the complaining evangelicals with whom you spoke is of no surprise. I am certainly aware that American Christianity despises Reformed churches much for the same reason (I used to feel similarly some years back, when I failed to understand a sound theology of worship and the significance of the means of grace), but what American Evangelicals set as the standard for faith and practice is by no means the bar by which Christ measures the faithfulness of His church.

Just the other day I was conversing with an old friend from an old church of some years back. It is a very large and a very active mega-church. Many would look at it and proclaim that it is living out the Great Commission, that it is far more sound in its practice than those dead Presbyterian congregations, and that people are really getting excited about Christ. Well, things are not as they appear to the outward eye, and thankfully my friend who remains at that church has a fair bit of doctrinal (and practical) integrity regardless. We discussed the church's new "vision", the harmfully pragmatic steps by which they are seeking to grow their church even larger, and the even further decline in certain moral standards in the worship and leadership teams that have taken place in the years since my departure. There is no need to discuss any of these in particular, but merely to state my case by them that indeed, without practice being grounded in sound, confessional orthodoxy, an energetic church of 6000 members can still be in a more precarious position, spiritually speaking (which is what counts) than those tiny Reformed bodies that nobody really cares much about.

Food for thought.

Originally Posted by SemperFideles

I want men transformed by the Gospel but I also believe that the excrement that others pass for the Gospel these days, with zeal, is destructive. I've seen the results of "new measures" firsthand and I hate the fruit.

Problem is, that everybody is looking for the lowest common denominator these days and saying: "I know Christ commanded us to teach them everything but what is really the minimum?" That is NOT Christianity.

Originally Posted by Archlute

All of the zeal in the world means nothing if, as Rich has been trying to emphasize, it is not first grounded on a foundational orthodoxy. The fact that the Pharisees traversed land and see to make converts only added to their own guilt, as well as to the condemnation of those who followed their teaching. Much of the zeal in the evangelical world is fruitless for the building of Christ's kingdom, because the preaching of the true Christ is absent, an understanding of the true Gospel is absent, and even a basic understanding of the Law that leads them to despair of their own righteousness is absent.

...an energetic church of 6000 members can still be in a more precarious position, spiritually speaking (which is what counts) than those tiny Reformed bodies that nobody really cares much about.

Food for thought.

Well said, brothers.

Great thoughts, Adam. They reminded me of a lot of what Darryl Hart observed in The Lost Soul of American Protestantism.