The Churching of America, 1776-2005 ... - Google Book Search

Anyone familiar with this statistic? The book goes on to show that the church affiliation grew over the next 2 centuries.

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Michael Masztal
H.S. Science Teacher at Community Christian School, Melbourne, FL
Member, Chapel By The Sea, ARP
Melbourne Beach, FL

What...I thought America was founded as a Christian nation!



Seriously, I read this in 2 books about the First Great Awakening. It seems that Deism had started to influence the colonies and they were quite Godless right before the Awakening began. Illegitimatacy rates for children were also given and were high but I forget the books.

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Pergamum


"If a commission by an earthly king is considered a honor, how can a commission by a Heavenly King be considered a sacrifice?"
-- David Livingstone

Dougals Kelly contradicts this view in The Emergence of Liberty in the Modern West. He says that 75% were Calvinistic in their worldview. Frankly, I believe him. Deism was a late arriver to the Americas and never really had the influence secular historians claim.

Furthermore, 52 out of 55 of the Signers were church affiliated, and the other three's worldviews are so problemetatic that they cannot be considered Deists.

But let's assume you are correct. So what? Franklin and Jefferson explicitly plagiarized borrowed Calvinistic political theory. The Declaration of Independence was copy and pasted from the previous Mecklenberg Declaration, which acknowledge its dependence on the Calvinistic Scots Confession a century earlier. That right there destroys secular historiography.

I can begin fire-bombing listing quotations proving we are a Christian country.

Indeed, if your view is correct, why weren't they quoting atheistic Frenchmen who were acknolwedged as the intellectual leaders of the world? Surely they would have.

But let's assume that it is saying too much to call them Calvinists. Take Arminian John Locke's political theory. Locke, while an Arminian, did not consider himself a Deist.

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J. B. Atken
John Knox PCA
Layman, M.A. student at Louisiana College

Patrick Henry:
“It can not be emphasized too strongly or too often that this great nation was founded, not by religionists, but by Christians, not on religions, but on the gospel of Jesus Christ!”

Samuel Adams, July 6 (?, it could be on the 5th) 1776, House of Burghesses,

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J. B. Atken
John Knox PCA
Layman, M.A. student at Louisiana College

I have a few issues with the authors' methodology. They freely acknowledge on page 21 that counting children of church members as members would "bias" the report. Says who? They understand that such a move, legitimate in non-Baptist circles, would tilt the scales to a larger Christian influence. And if that is the methodology, then one can easily see how only 17% are church-goers.

But also consider the rural nature of colonial times. It was hard for priests/preachers to make it to each church, meaning that some churches only had services less than 20 times a year. But does that logistic difficulty preclude them from being Christian? Well, it may. But does that preclude them from using Christian categories in politico-military debates? I think not.

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J. B. Atken
John Knox PCA
Layman, M.A. student at Louisiana College

I am not sure why you picked up so hotly on this thread and threatened to fire-bomb quotations, but I do remember reading the Jefferson Bible and Thomas Paine's Age of Reasons as a teenager, as well as Franklin admitting to being a deist later in life and Madison's writings which seemed a bit deistic. It seemed that a very large proportion of our Founding Fathers are now in hell.

And so I concluded that the American colonies were influenced a great deal by a mixture of Locke and deism and Christianity (and the Roman writers as well). Deism seemed quite mixed into some people's beleifs and after the Revolutionary War seemed to increase a bit until the Awakening, which shaped the nation on the side of Christian doctrine.



And really, since Israel stopped being a "body politick"is it even fitting to call any nation a Christian nation?

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Pergamum


"If a commission by an earthly king is considered a honor, how can a commission by a Heavenly King be considered a sacrifice?"
-- David Livingstone

And Patrick Henry despised Paine. Paine gets more treatment than he deserves. RE: Franklin. Franklin petitioned that the delegates pray, saying, "If a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without his eye, how can an empire rise without his aid." This is a startling and utterly contradictory admission by a Deist. Deist do not believe that "God governs in the affairs of men." So any line of evidence that Franklin was a Deist is simply moot. Jefferson, while being hostile to Christianity on some points, similarly made comments that preclude him from being labeled a Deist.

Are you referring to the Great Awakening? That happened before the First War for American Independence.

John Locke was a Christian, so that line of thought actually supports my position.

I have disprove the "Deist claims."

Col. John Eidsmoe (Thomas Goode School of Law) noted that the majority of quotations from the Founders came from the Bible, and the majority of those quotations came from Deuteronomy. So while they quoted Roman writers, they quoted the Bible more.

Insofar as the general equity requireth, which shows that people only read 1/2 of that clause.

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J. B. Atken
John Knox PCA
Layman, M.A. student at Louisiana College

Not to mention various other portions of the Confession and Catechism along with the Scripture texts quoted in their footnotes.

Moreover since all nations are required to serve the ascended Christ (Ps. 72), then there must be the possibility of a Christian nation. Tell me Pergy, are you against the state deifying itself? If so why?

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Daniel Ritchie
Saintfield, Northern Ireland - Queen's University, Belfast:History/Politics
Member of Dromara Reformed Presbyterian Church of Ireland (Covenanter)

I recall seeing some familiar and surprising statistics a few years ago when I read Mark A. Noll's book A History of Christianity in the US and Canada. He says...

"Still, the churches were definitely disorganized in the wake of the revolution, and the role of Christianity in the new national culture was anything but secure. While church adherence remained high at least into the 1770s (with perhaps as much as 40 to 50 percent of the population attending church with some regularity), formal church membership was sinking, and in the 1790s reached an all-time low (somewhere between 5 and 10 percent of the adult population)."

Here are some interesting stats...

Table 6.1 Denominational Shares of religion adherents: US, 1776 and 1850

1776
1. Congregationalist 20.4%
2. Presbyterians 19.0%
3. Baptists 16.9%
4. Episcopalians 15.7%
5. Methodists 2.5%
6. Roman Catholic 1.8%

1850
1. Methodists 34.2%
2. Baptists 20.5%
3. Roman Catholics 13.9%
4. Presbyterians 11.6%
5. Congregationalists 4.0%
6. Episcopalians 3.5%

hmmmmm...

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Rev. Mark Koller, RPCGA minister (without call), North Little Rock, AR
my website: www.dailyreformation.wordpress.com

Pulpit Supply, Covenant Presbyterian Church (ARP), Heber Springs, AR
www.covenantchurch-hebersprings.com

"We not only go to heaven, but go to heaven triumphantly; not only get into the harbor, but come in with full sail!" Matthew Henry

.

I would dispute Noll's premise since the intellectual leadership before and after the War depended largely on Calvinistic political theory, if sadly secularlized on a few points.

As to the churches being disorganised. That is not hard to understand. The British burned many (if not most) of the Presbyterian churches. And British ambassardor Walpole described the Revolution as "a Presbyterian rebellion."

Again, many moved across the Frontier after the War, making church attendance unorganised--I don't dispute that.

Here are some interesting stats...

Table 6.1 Denominational Shares of religion adherents: US, 1776 and 1850

Well, Noll's stats contradict Stark's, which was used by the OP. Either way, my point was that the intellectual leadership used Calvinistic political theory to justify their war with Britian. Such removes any "secularized' thought, which would be true if we would have seen more of a taste of the coming French Revolution.

Indeed, John Adams would write a pamphlet contrasting the two Revolutions: one was atheistic and one was Chrisitan.

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J. B. Atken
John Knox PCA
Layman, M.A. student at Louisiana College

Hmmm....obviously when you touch the "America is a Christian Nation" myth, you make people mad.


It does appear that the Founders were a mix of true Christians, Christians in name only, Deists, and freethinkers. When I was a "freethinker" I got many of my best quotes from the Founder.

Whether most are in hell or not, well, I guess perhaps I should leave that up to God.

I AM glad for those true Christians that did help found our nation.


I still affirm that church numbers dipped and a decline in morals appeared to happen between the time of the Revolution to the time of the First Great Awakening.

Even Michael Haykin in a brief spoken bio of the missionary Adon. Judson speaks of the influence of deism on the colonies during this time (he blames it on the French who helped us during the war). Some universities entirely fell away within 30 years after the war. Judson's biography records some of this I think.



Ryan Setliff (where are you Ryan...give us another update) does bring up a good point in an email to me that many of the"anti-religious" quotes that they used are not anti-Christian but Anti-religion (i.e. rites and rituals), and usually anti-Catholic. He also suggests a book that looks very good by David Barton. So, I was glad to hear from this brother and the above which I gained from him is valuable.



Finally, my main points still stands. I challenge you to dispute these:

(1)Theologically, there IS NO SUCH THING, since Israel ended, of a "Christian Nation" - America has a unique history and maybe the best in this respect, but it too was a mixture of Christians, deists, atheists/Frethinkers, etc.

(2) That a large percentage were not Christian at all but deists and Freethinkers.

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Pergamum


"If a commission by an earthly king is considered a honor, how can a commission by a Heavenly King be considered a sacrifice?"
-- David Livingstone

Just a note:

Jacob (and Ryan too, bud, if your out there somewhere.....);

I realize that when it comes politics, which is a very large proportion of your posts on how, we agree very little...

Ha, I think I have now gone a whole year without hardly agreeing with you on a single post.


So, I just wanted to make sure that I wish you two guys a heartfelt Merry Christmas to my worthy colleagues and God's deepest blessings on you this season. Jacob, hows the betrothal going? Ryan, what's the next step for you?

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Pergamum


"If a commission by an earthly king is considered a honor, how can a commission by a Heavenly King be considered a sacrifice?"
-- David Livingstone

That is actually a true point, and I am glad you brought it up. Since the French helped us, many reasoned that their ideas were cool. That is why I John Adams wrote a pamphlet contrasting the two conflicts. One was an attempt to restore the rule of law, the other to establish the first atheistic world order.



Finally, my main points still stands. I challenge you to dispute these:

Okay. I grant the point. That is not what I was arguing. I was arguing that their was a predominantly Christian influence in America. Christian presuppositions and decidely Calvinistic politics.

Are we talking about the rank and file commoner, or of the intellectual elite? Professor Douglas Kelly notes that the rank and file commoner was probably a Calvinist.

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J. B. Atken
John Knox PCA
Layman, M.A. student at Louisiana College

Engagement is going well. About 6 more months.

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J. B. Atken
John Knox PCA
Layman, M.A. student at Louisiana College

Predominantly CHristian and even Calvinist.....hmmm.....

.... you might be right. It is, after all, usually the leaders that fall away first into new heresies. And the Revolution was called the Presbyterian Revolt.

So, even if I argued that 40-60% of the leaders of the colonies were unorthodox or Freethinkers, you could still be right about the common man still retaining his faith.

I would like to Read Kelley, do you have a link? You have me very interested...

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Pergamum


"If a commission by an earthly king is considered a honor, how can a commission by a Heavenly King be considered a sacrifice?"
-- David Livingstone

His book was titled The Emergence of Liberty in the Modern West. One of the chapters dealt with the founding of America. I went to google scholar and tried to find it. I can summarize that chapter later. And while I said John Locke was a Christian, I disagree with his natural law theory--even if I agree with most of his conclusions.

And I will admit that men like D James Kennedy convert some men who probably wouldn't like conversion. I will also admit that there were some serious secularizations of Knox's thought that have had ramifications today (for instance, the first amendment. While I can build a case using both 1st and 10th amendments to justify establishing a Christian "state" in Louisiana or Alabama--it's a cool constitutional move, actually---, the wording of the 1st Amendment opened the door to secularism).

Even a Reconstructionist like Rushdoony goes into great detail to document the widespread biblical illiteracy from 1780-1830.

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J. B. Atken
John Knox PCA
Layman, M.A. student at Louisiana College

That and the preamble:

"We the people of the United States, in order to form a more perfect union, establish justice, insure domestic tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general welfare, and secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America."

And again, who is it that establishes government? One reason Patrick Henry smelled a rat.


Nevertheless, I still view it as a national covenant binding on the people-- who in turn have the responsibility to bind their representatives to follow it.

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R.Vic Bottomly
Providence Reformed Baptist Church, Tacoma, WA

Click to get: Board Rules -- Signature Requirements -- Suggestions?

It's quite clear in Franklin's autobiography that he was capable of speaking so as to take advantage of the religious feelings of other people: he stopped deconverting the simple-minded when they lost their morality and cheated him shortly thereafter. But it is also quite clear in the autobiography (and perhaps he would speak more forthrightly to a trusted son than he would in a public speech) that his own "convictions" were far from Christian.

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Ruben
Moderator
F.P.C.I.
Indiana

Men can only be happy when they do not assume that the object of life is happiness. -George Orwell

Click to get: Board Rules -- Signature Requirements -- Suggestions?

Calvinistas Conversando - Reformed Discussion Board in Spanish.

Spanish Blog -Teologia en Mexico
English Blog -The Howling Wilderness

Can you elaborate on this? I am just curious about the accuracy of Noll's statistics compared to others. Interesting discussion...

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Rev. Mark Koller, RPCGA minister (without call), North Little Rock, AR
my website: www.dailyreformation.wordpress.com

Pulpit Supply, Covenant Presbyterian Church (ARP), Heber Springs, AR
www.covenantchurch-hebersprings.com

"We not only go to heaven, but go to heaven triumphantly; not only get into the harbor, but come in with full sail!" Matthew Henry