The original question did not give a third option, that only these two churches were available. Certainly if there are more solid reformed churches than the choice is obvious.

__________________
Stephen Welch
PCA Teaching Elder
Nova Scotia :cheers:

Under whose authority?

__________________
Josh Hicks, Chloë's Daddy
Member of TRBC, Attending CCRPC. My Blog
The Puritan Pub (Team Blog)
Board Rules -- Signature Requirements -- Suggestions?

I think the idea would be finding a like minded group of people and then coming under the authority of a presbytery and working with a denomination's home mission board, etc. Sometimes it may also be useful to contact the presbytery or nearest church first (even if it is too far to drive to worship regularly) as they may be aware of others in the area who might be interested in being part of a church plant.

__________________
Chris
OPC member
Now attending Grace Community Baptist Church
Mandeville, LA

"Faith alone saves, but it is a faith that works." - S. Lewis Johnson

As someone who has been involved in several church plants in the past: Be watchful as far as who indicates interest in starting a work, especially as far as their commitment level. Learn to accurately assess their interest. People can sound very "gung ho" who are in fact, malcontents as far as where they are. A work that begins on a basis of discontentment is not very promising.

__________________
~Jay~
Husband of ENS, father of J II. | Indian Trail, NC
Currently disabled due to health issues
Communicant Member, Precentor | Presbyterian Reformed Church of Charlotte, NC | Presbyterian Reformed Church

Under presbyterian standards how is one who is not ordained, nor outwardly called to the ministry supposed to plant a church? My impression was that presbyterian standards are a lot stricter than this. Not just anyone can go start a presbyterian chruch. Especially when there are other churches in the presbytery how is one to get permission to start a new church plant in this or another presbytery?

__________________
Erick Bohndorf, Covenant Baptist Church, KS
http://qayaqtraveler.blogspot.com/
The question for us today is, will we be like the majority of Israel and continue to look in fear at the giants in the land and urge our fellow Christians to be "realistic," or will we be like Joshua and Caleb and faithfully follow our king, trusting to fulfill every one of his promises completely?

You cannot plant a church if you are not called to a work. Only a qualified ordained man can do that.

__________________
Stephen Welch
PCA Teaching Elder
Nova Scotia :cheers:

It's not quite as simple as that, although if you are trying to get others to look at it from a cut-and-dry, high-church presbyterian model you may attempt to persuade others that it is so.

It would be better said that if you are working from within the bounds of a presbyterian body, and you have not been so outwardly called, it is less than likely that you will be able to accomplish your goals.

You could be called to a work outside of the bounds of the PCA by an independent group, and decide to minister there (but you'd have to give up membership in the PCA and relocate it within a congregational polity). You could leave the PCA, declare yourself independent (or affiliate with another church planting denomination) and begin a work. Etc.

I get a little tired of individuals who would throw out a statement, such as the one quoted above, and make it sound as if this was from the mouth of God. Nobody who studies the history of polity in the church with any amount of historical integrity can make such assertions without qualification. It is fine to speak this way from within the presbyterian understanding, but one should at least acknowledge that from within the history of the church, and even within the history of Reformed churches, there have been differing opinions on this matter. That is a fact.

John Owen (unless he's now not really reformed), and the Savoy Platform of Polity (which is congregational) are clear that where Christians have gathered, they have a right to constitute and recognize their own officers. Cotton's Keys of the Kingdom also assigns this authority to gathered Christians apart from the "authorized and duly recognized ordained oligarchy" etc. etc. These were all men who affirmed the WCF (although changing the section on polity, of course), and who were truly Reformed ministers. To ignore their testimony and their theological acumen is to do them a disservice.

If you really want to get high-church, then go read Francis Turretin's Institutes of Elenctic Theology on the matter. He is clear, and I constantly try to remind my Reformed brethren of this, that any view that would seek to limit the validity of the preaching of the Word and the administration of the sacraments to a "properly ordained clergy" is saying nothing other than Roman Catholicism on the position, which he says the Reformed reject.

Turretin, Perkins, and Owen all allow for the gathering/building up of churches by formally unordained men, where there is a lack of true churches or the church is in a state of disrepair. They do this by recognizing that Christ is the One who calls and ordains (appoints) a man to the work of the ministry by His Spirit, and that church bodies merely recognize this. If a church body fails to recognize this due to sloth, sinful politics, etc, or if there is no nearby authority available to the work, then these men would all give the go ahead to a formally unrecognized man laboring in the work of the ministry out of Christian duty and love.

Whether or not your situation falls under any portion of that umbrella, I will not presume to judge. However, basic historical integrity cannot so clearly limit the work of church planting and ministry in such black and white terms as is often done by those wanting to say otherwise.

__________________
Adam J. Myer
Now waiting on the November accessions board, because I'm still waiting on the West Coast recruiting staff!
Evergreen PCA
Salem, Oregon

They can destroy a work before it has even come close to taking off.

__________________
Adam J. Myer
Now waiting on the November accessions board, because I'm still waiting on the West Coast recruiting staff!
Evergreen PCA
Salem, Oregon

My first choice would be to drive the hour to the more solid church (I thought I remember you saying there was one). I have to agree with Kevin on this one. The sacraments, covenant and church government matter. Both options are definately less than ideal, but I hesitantly say the PCA would be the better of the two.

I drive 50 minutes to my church while there is a reformed baptist church about five minutes away. At the baptist church, you have to be a member to partake in the Lord's Supper and they would most certainly insist on re-baptism and an affirmation of the credo position to place membership. So, we couldn't really fully fellowship there under those circumstances anyway. Kind of a bummer, some of my dear brothers attend there.

__________________
Dan
Member, Soaring Oaks Presbyterian (PCA)
www.soaringoaks.org
Northern California
The duty of a theologian is, not to please the ear with empty sounds, but to confirm the conscience by teaching things which are true, certain and profitable.
John Calvin, 1559

In your case IMO the church planting idea really doesn't apply since there are already many congregations in the area. In addition to the ones already mentioned, there is also an RPCNA congregation in Shawnee, KS and an RCUS congregation in KC, MO. Even assuming for the sake of argument that none of the PCA churches there are viable options, with OPC, URCNA, RCUS and RPCNA congregations (the latter two DO have pastors) in the area, (not to mention that, if you want to look at Baptist options (not recommended given the above if you are convinced of Presbyterianism) a simple web search turns up at least a half dozen Calvinistic Baptist churches in the KC metro, some of which just might not be dispy!) it is an embarrassment of riches that most wouldn't dream of.

__________________
Chris
OPC member
Now attending Grace Community Baptist Church
Mandeville, LA

"Faith alone saves, but it is a faith that works." - S. Lewis Johnson

I am not completely sold out on Presbyterianism, I like reformed theology but not necessarily that strict form of government. To be honest it reminds me of a home owners association, someone else is constantly telling you what you can and can't do with your stuff. (A presbytery, another church, is policing the activities in someone else's church). It makes me think, "Mind your own business, you worry about your chruch and I will worry about mine!" So maybe in that sense I am not cut out to be Pres. I was just trying to make a point when told to "plant a chruch," that is not kosher under pres. government.

I have been to all those churches listed above and was not very fond of the attitude of the people or pastors there, they can be very mean, arrogant and hateful, Calvinism tends to do that to some people. The two churches listed in the original post were listed for a reason, I had tried everything else and out of frustration was considering those two. I think I am learning, after two years of studying and attending different reformed and Pres. churches, that a milder form of reformed theology might be better. To me, method and form of baptism are not worth dividing over. How much water is used is inconsequential. I think good arguments can be made for both infant and believers baptism a lot of anger and strife exists on both sides. I do however love covenant theology and if infant baptism goes along with that it is fine.

Pilgrim, I had not seen all those "Reformed Baptist" churches you have found, half a dozen you said, I know of one and it went out of business at the beginning of this year. Maybe you could show me where you found those. There is no way I could be RPCNA. I could live with the no music, psalms only I think, but there is just a certain attitude that goes along with it that I do not like. I would have to say it is that certain attitude that rubs me the wrong way and makes me uncomfortable at churches with a strictly reformed emphasis (both with Baptist, Pres. and Dutch reformed). I am sure most people on this board would love at least five churches that are in this area. But like I stated above, I want the truth preached in love and that is what is hard to find. So my wife and I were trying to decide which of the things we did not like could we live with, hence the original post. This thread has helped me think through my decision and what I want out of a church and I think you all for that.

__________________
Erick Bohndorf, Covenant Baptist Church, KS
http://qayaqtraveler.blogspot.com/
The question for us today is, will we be like the majority of Israel and continue to look in fear at the giants in the land and urge our fellow Christians to be "realistic," or will we be like Joshua and Caleb and faithfully follow our king, trusting to fulfill every one of his promises completely?

It is too bad that you didn't have a good experience in some of the churches.

I think most here will agree that of all the problems in Reformed churches today, the Presbytery coming in and telling churches what to do is very low on the list if not practically non existent. That's the reason for the red sneakers, etc. unless the presbytery as a whole endorses that and they very well may. Those PCA churches have appear to have adopted a "milder form of reformed theology" but it doesn't seem to be a form that is palatable to you (nor am I saying it should be).

With the Baptist churches, I was going by what was listed in the Founders directory. Maybe you are aware of all of them, maybe not. It appeared that there were a good number of churches in the KC area in both KS and MO. Some of these may be dispy but at least one said that it subscribed to the 1689, which is usually a sign that they are not. But what is there may not be totally up to date. Most if not all of them however aren't going to see mode and subjects of baptism as being of little consequence (they are Baptists after all) so you may end up at an impasse there as well until you come to a final decision which way to go on that issue. It sometimes isn't easy and took me a few years.

__________________
Chris
OPC member
Now attending Grace Community Baptist Church
Mandeville, LA

"Faith alone saves, but it is a faith that works." - S. Lewis Johnson

This is what I had in mind

__________________
JD Ketterman
Christ Reformed Church URC, Washington DC
RTS, Student, Washington D.C.

Pilgrim, thanks. From what I have found on internet over the past two years a lot of those churches listed are either, out of existence or are a group of about 5 that meet in someone's house and have kind of a loose set of standards (I am speaking strictly of my area). There are a lot of little inbred churches with just the pastor, his family and maybe one or two other families. They are usually small because no one could stand them. These churches tend to be like small business, some take off, some just barely survive then eventually die after a year but their names are still found on the internet.

I by nature have never been big on laws, rules and regulations but I think there should be order and not complete autonomy. There is one church in the area who makes it a habit of going after the other churches, even chasing one of to the EPC, that is what I was referring to. I have to admit I have not read enough about the issue of the sacraments yet to make a dogmatic claim one way or the other, and yes baptists are just as dogmatic about believer's only baptism.

__________________
Erick Bohndorf, Covenant Baptist Church, KS
http://qayaqtraveler.blogspot.com/
The question for us today is, will we be like the majority of Israel and continue to look in fear at the giants in the land and urge our fellow Christians to be "realistic," or will we be like Joshua and Caleb and faithfully follow our king, trusting to fulfill every one of his promises completely?