Stealing: Question on loans/creditcards

Romans922 · #1 (**permalink**) 09-30-2009, 06:22 PM

I'm preaching on stealing, what should I say about loans and credit cards? In your words, how far would you use the Word to correct, rebuke, teach, and train in these areas?

***Semper Fidelis*** · #2 (**permalink**) 09-30-2009, 06:27 PM

I think the WLC has some excellent thoughts:

Quote:

Q. 141. What are the duties required in the eighth commandment?
A. The duties required in the eighth commandment are, truth, faithfulness, and justice in contracts and commerce between man and man;801 rendering to everyone his due;[801a] restitution of goods unlawfully detained from the right owners thereof;802 giving and lending freely, according to our abilities, and the necessities of others;803 moderation of our judgments, wills, and affections concerning worldly goods;804 a provident care and study to get,805 keep, use, and dispose these things which are necessary and convenient for the sustentation of our nature, and suitable to our condition;806 a lawful calling,807 and diligence in it;808 frugality;809 avoiding unnecessary lawsuits,810. and suretiship, or other like engagements;811 and an endeavor, by all just and lawful means, to procure, preserve, and further the wealth and outward estate of others, as well as our own.812

Q. 142. What are the sins forbidden in the eighth commandment?
A. The sins forbidden in the eighth commandment, besides the neglect of the duties required,813 are, theft,814 robbery,815 man-stealing,816 and receiving any thing that is stolen;817 fraudulent dealing,818 false weights and measures,819 removing landmarks,820 injustice and unfaithfulness in contracts between man and man,821 or in matters of trust;822 oppression,823 extortion,824 usury,825 bribery,826 vexatious lawsuits,827 unjust inclosures and depopulations;828 ingrossing commodities to enhance the price;829 unlawful callings,830 and all other unjust or sinful ways of taking or withholding from our neighbour what belongs to him, or of enriching ourselves;831 covetousness;832 inordinate prizing and affecting worldly goods;833 distrustful and distracting cares and studies in getting, keeping, and using them;834 envying at the prosperity of others;835 as likewise idleness,836 prodigality, wasteful gaming; and all other ways whereby we do unduly prejudice our own outward estate,837 and defrauding ourselves of the due use and comfort of that estate which God hath given us.838

801 Psalm 15:2, 4. He that walketh uprightly, and worketh righteousness, and speaketh the truth in his heart.... In whose eyes a vile person is contemned; but he honoureth them that fear the LORD. He that sweareth to his own hurt, and changeth not. Zechariah 7:4, 10. Then came the word of the LORD of hosts unto me, saying.... And oppress not the widow, nor the fatherless, the stranger, nor the poor; and let none of you imagine evil against his brother in your heart. Zechariah 8:16-17. These are the things that ye shall do; Speak ye every man the truth to his neighbour; execute the judgment of truth and peace in your gates: And let none of you imagine evil in your hearts against his neighbour; and love no false oath: for all these are things that I hate, saith the LORD.

801a Romans 13:7. Render therefore to all their dues: tribute to whom tribute is due; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honour to whom honour.

802 Leviticus 6:2-5. If a soul sin, and commit a trespass against the LORD, and lie unto his neighbour in that which was delivered him to keep, or in fellowship, or in a thing taken away by violence, or hath deceived his neighbour; Or have found that which was lost, and lieth concerning it, and sweareth falsely; in any of all these that a man doeth, sinning therein: Then it shall be, because he hath sinned, and is guilty, that he shall restore that which he took violently away, or the thing which he hath deceitfully gotten, or that which was delivered him to keep, or the lost thing which he found, Or all that about which he hath sworn falsely; he shall even restore it in the principal, and shall add the fifth part more thereto, and give it unto him to whom it appertaineth, in the day of his trespass offering. Luke 19:8. And Zacchaeus stood, and said unto the Lord; Behold, Lord, the half of my goods I give to the poor; and if I have taken any thing from any man by false accusation, I restore him fourfold.

803 Luke 6:30, 38. Give to every man that asketh of thee; and of him that taketh away thy goods ask them not again.... Give, and it shall be given unto you; good measure, pressed down, and shaken together, and running over, shall men give into your bosom. For with the same measure that ye mete withal it shall be measured to you again. 1 John 3:17. But whoso hath this world's good, and seeth his brother have need, and shutteth up his bowels of compassion from him, how dwelleth the love of God in him? Ephesians 4:28. Let him that stole steal no more: but rather let him labour, working with his hands the thing which is good, that he may have to give to him that needeth. Galatians 6:10. As we have therefore opportunity, let us do good unto all men, especially unto them who are of the household of faith.

804 1 Timothy 6:6-9. But godliness with contentment is great gain. For we brought nothing into this world, and it is certain we can carry nothing out. And having food and raiment let us be therewith content. But they that will be rich fall into temptation and a snare, and into many foolish and hurtful lusts, which drown men in destruction and perdition. Galatians 6:14. But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world.

805 1 Timothy 5:8. But if any provide not for his own, and specially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel.

806 Proverbs 27:23-27. Be thou diligent to know the state of thy flocks, and look well to thy herds. For riches are not for ever: and doth the crown endure to every generation? The hay appeareth, and the tender grass showeth itself, and herbs of the mountains are gathered. The lambs are for thy clothing, and the goats are the price of the field. And thou shalt have goats' milk enough for thy food, for the food of thy household, and for the maintenance for thy maidens. Ecclesiastes 2:24. There is nothing better for a man, than that he should eat and drink, and that he should make his soul enjoy good in his labour. This also I saw, that it was from the hand of God. Ecclesiastes 3:12-13. I know that there is no good in them, but for a man to rejoice, and to do good in his life. And also that every man should eat and drink, and enjoy the good of all his labour, it is the gift of God. 1 Timothy 6:17-18. Charge them that are rich in this world, that they be not highminded, nor trust in uncertain riches, but in the living God, who giveth us richly all things to enjoy; That they do good, that they be rich in good works, ready to distribute, willing to communicate. Isaiah 38:1. In those days was Hezekiah sick unto death. And Isaiah the prophet the son of Amoz came unto him, and said unto him, Thus saith the LORD, Set thine house in order: for thou shalt die, and not live. Matthew 11:8. But what went ye out for to see? A man clothed in soft raiment? behold, they that wear soft clothing are in kings' houses.

807 1 Corinthians 7:20. Let every man abide in the same calling wherein he was called. Genesis 2:15. And the LORD God took the man, and put him into the garden of Eden to dress it and to keep it. Genesis 3:19. In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.

808 Ephesians 4:28. Let him that stole steal no more: but rather let him labour, working with his hands the thing which is good, that he may have to give to him that needeth. Proverbs 10:4. He becometh poor that dealeth with a slack hand: but the hand of the diligent maketh rich.

809 John 6:12. When they were filled, he said unto his disciples, Gather up the fragments that remain, that nothing be lost. Proverbs 21:20. There is treasure to be desired and oil in the dwelling of the wise; but a foolish man spendeth it up.

810 1 Corinthians 6:1-9. Dare any of you, having a matter against another, go to law before the unjust, and not before the saints? Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters? Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life? If then ye have judgments of things pertaining to this life, set them to judge who are least esteemed in the church. I speak to your shame. Is it so, that there is not a wise man among you? no, not one that shall be able to judge between his brethren? But brother goeth to law with brother, and that before the unbelievers. Now therefore there is utterly a fault among you, because ye go to law one with another. Why do ye not rather take wrong? why do ye not rather suffer yourselves to be defrauded? Nay, ye do wrong, and defraud, and that your brethren. Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind....

811 Proverbs 6:1-6. My son, if thou be surety for thy friend, if thou hast stricken thy hand with a stranger, Thou art snared with the words of thy mouth, thou art taken with the words of thy mouth. Do this now, my son, and deliver thyself, when thou art come into the hand of thy friend; go, humble thyself, and make sure thy friend. Give not sleep to thine eyes, nor slumber to thine eyelids. Deliver thyself as a roe from the hand of the hunter, and as a bird from the hand of the fowler. Go to the ant, thou sluggard; consider her ways, and be wise. Proverbs 11:15. He that is surety for a stranger shall smart for it: and he that hateth suretiship is sure.

812 Leviticus 25:35. And if thy brother be waxen poor, and fallen in decay with thee; then thou shalt relieve him: yea, though he be a stranger, or a sojourner; that he may live with thee. Deuteronomy 22:1-4. Thou shalt not see thy brother's ox or his sheep go astray, and hide thyself from them: thou shalt in any case bring them again unto thy brother. And if thy brother be not nigh unto thee, or if thou know him not, then thou shalt bring it unto thine own house, and it shall be with thee until thy brother seek after it, and thou shalt restore it to him again. In like manner shalt thou do with his ass; and so shalt thou do with his raiment; and with all lost thing of thy brother's, which he hath lost, and thou hast found, shalt thou do likewise: thou mayest not hide thyself. Thou shalt not see thy brother's ass or his ox fall down by the way, and hide thyself from them: thou shalt surely help him to lift them up again. Exodus 23:4-5. If thou meet thine enemy's ox or his ass going astray, thou shalt surely bring it back to him again. If thou see the ass of him that hateth thee lying under his burden, and wouldest forbear to help him, thou shalt surely help with him. Genesis 47:14, 20. And Joseph gathered up all the money that was found in the land of Egypt, and in the land of Canaan, for the corn which they bought: and Joseph brought the money into Pharaoh's house.... And Joseph bought all the land of Egypt for Pharaoh; for the Egyptians sold every man his field, because the famine prevailed over them: so the land became Pharaoh's. Philippians 2:4. Look not every man on his own things, but every man also on the things of others. Matthew 22:39. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

813 James 2:15-16. If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food, And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit? 1 John 3:17. But whoso hath this world's good, and seeth his brother have need, and shutteth up his bowels of compassion from him, how dwelleth the love of God in him?

814 Ephesians 4:28. Let him that stole steal no more: but rather let him labour, working with his hands the thing which is good, that he may have to give to him that needeth.

815 Psalm 62:10. Trust not in oppression, and become not vain in robbery: if riches increase, set not your heart upon them.

816 1 Timothy 1:10. For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine.

817 Proverbs 29:24. Whoso is partner with a thief hateth his own soul: he heareth cursing, and bewrayeth it not. Psalm 50:18. When thou sawest a thief, then thou consentedst with him, and hast been partaker with adulterers.

818 1 Thessalonians 4:6. That no man go beyond and defraud his brother in any matter: because that the Lord is the avenger of all such, as we also have forewarned you and testified.

819 Proverbs 11:1. A false balance is abomination to the LORD: but a just weight is his delight. Proverbs 20:10. Divers weights, and divers measures, both of them are alike abomination to the LORD.

820 Deuteronomy 19:14. Thou shalt not remove thy neighbour's landmark, which they of old time have set in thine inheritance, which thou shalt inherit in the land that the LORD thy God giveth thee to possess it. Proverbs 23:10. Remove not the old landmark; and enter not into the fields of the fatherless.

821 Amos 8:5. Saying, When will the new moon be gone, that we may sell corn? and the sabbath, that we may set forth wheat, making the ephah small, and the shekel great, and falsifying the balances by deceit? Psalm 37:21. The wicked borroweth, and payeth not again: but the righteous showeth mercy, and giveth.

822 Luke 16:10-12. He that is faithful in that which is least is faithful also in much: and he that is unjust in the least is unjust also in much. If therefore ye have not been faithful in the unrighteous mammon, who will commit to your trust the true riches? And if ye have not been faithful in that which is another man's, who shall give you that which is your own?

823 Ezekiel 22:29. The people of the land have used oppression, and exercised robbery, and have vexed the poor and needy: yea, they have oppressed the stranger wrongfully. Leviticus 25:17. Ye shall not therefore oppress one another; but thou shalt fear thy God: for I am the LORD your God.

824 Matthew 23:25. Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye make clean the outside of the cup and of the platter, but within they are full of extortion and excess. Ezekiel 22:12. In thee have they taken gifts to shed blood; thou hast taken usury and increase, and thou hast greedily gained of thy neighbours by extortion, and hast forgotten me, saith the Lord GOD.

825 Psalm 15:5. He that putteth not out his money to usury, nor taketh reward against the innocent. He that doeth these things shall never be moved.

826 Job 15:34. For the congregation of hypocrites shall be desolate, and fire shall consume the tabernacles of bribery.

827 1 Corinthians 6:6-8. But brother goeth to law with brother, and that before the unbelievers. Now therefore there is utterly a fault among you, because ye go to law one with another. Why do ye not rather take wrong? why do ye not rather suffer yourselves to be defrauded? Nay, ye do wrong, and defraud, and that your brethren. Proverbs 3:29-30. Devise not evil against thy neighbour, seeing he dwelleth securely by thee. Strive not with a man without cause, if he have done thee no harm.

828 Isaiah 5:8. Woe unto them that join house to house, that lay field to field, till there be no place, that they may be placed alone in the midst of the earth! Micah 2:2. And they covet fields, and take them by violence; and houses, and take them away: so they oppress a man and his house, even a man and his heritage.

829 Proverbs 11:26. He that withholdeth corn, the people shall curse him: but blessing shall be upon the head of him that selleth it.

830 Acts 19:19, 24-25. Many of them also which used curious arts brought their books together, and burned them before all men: and they counted the price of them, and found it fifty thousand pieces of silver.... For a certain man named Demetrius, a silversmith, which made silver shrines for Diana, brought no small gain unto the craftsmen; Whom he called together with the workmen of like occupation, and said, Sirs, ye know that by this craft we have our wealth.

831 Job 20:19. Because he hath oppressed and hath forsaken the poor; because he hath violently taken away an house which he builded not. James 5:4. Behold, the hire of the labourers who have reaped down your fields, which is of you kept back by fraud, crieth: and the cries of them which have reaped are entered into the ears of the Lord of sabaoth. Proverbs 21:6. The getting of treasures by a lying tongue is a vanity tossed to and fro of them that seek death.

832 Luke 12:15. And he said unto them, Take heed, and beware of covetousness: for a man's life consisteth not in the abundance of the things which he possesseth.

833 1 Timothy 6:5. Perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness: from such withdraw thyself. Colossians 3:2. Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth. Proverbs 23:5. Wilt thou set thine eyes upon that which is not? for riches certainly make themselves wings; they fly away as an eagle toward heaven. Psalm 62:10. Trust not in oppression, and become not vain in robbery: if riches increase, set not your heart upon them.

834 Matthew 6:25, 31, 34. Therefore I say unto you, Take no thought for your life, what ye shall eat, or what ye shall drink; nor yet for your body, what ye shall put on. Is not the life more than meat, and the body than raiment?... Therefore take no thought, saying, What shall we eat? or, What shall we drink? or, Wherewithal shall we be clothed?... Take therefore no thought for the morrow: for the morrow shall take thought for the things of itself. Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof. Ecclesiastes 5:12. The sleep of a labouring man is sweet, whether he eat little or much: but the abundance of the rich will not suffer him to sleep.

835 Psalm 73:3. For I was envious at the foolish, when I saw the prosperity of the wicked. Psalm 37:1, 7. Fret not thyself because of evildoers, neither be thou envious against the workers of iniquity.... Rest in the LORD, and wait patiently for him: fret not thyself because of him who prospereth in his way, because of the man who bringeth wicked devices to pass.

836 2 Thessalonians 3:11. For we hear that there are some which walk among you disorderly, working not at all, but are busybodies. Proverbs 18:9. He also that is slothful in his work is brother to him that is a great waster.

837 Proverbs 21:17. He that loveth pleasure shall be a poor man: he that loveth wine and oil shall not be rich. Proverbs 23:20-21. Be not among winebibbers; among riotous eaters of flesh: For the drunkard and the glutton shall come to poverty: and drowsiness shall clothe a man with rags. Proverbs 28:19. He that tilleth his land shall have plenty of bread: but he that followeth after vain persons shall have poverty enough.

838 Ecclesiastes 4:8. There is one alone, and there is not a second; yea, he hath neither child nor brother: yet is there no end of all his labour; neither is his eye satisfied with riches; neither saith he, For whom do I labour, and bereave my soul of good? This is also vanity, yea, it is a sore travail. Ecclesiastes 6:2. A man to whom God hath given riches, wealth, and honour, so that he wanteth nothing for his soul of all that he desireth, yet God giveth him not power to eat thereof, but a stranger eateth it: this is vanity, and it is an evil disease. 1 Timothy 5:8. But if any provide not for his own, and specially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel.

Romans922 · #3 (**permalink**) 09-30-2009, 06:29 PM

I've been reading that, can you bold the areas you specifically had in mind?

So far in my thoughts about these two things, I believe it unwise to take part in these things (although for home loans, you really can't help it these days).

Because over the long haul, you are paying way more than you have to and more than what you are buying is worth (because of interest). This IMO is not procuring and furthering your estate, but hindering it. These are my initial thoughts.

And your borrowing of money is unnecessary in some ways. To buy a car, you can plan ahead and save. I don't believe you have to use a CC, although to gain benefits from some CC companies, it might be wise to use CC, as long as you pay it off quickly so no interest is accrued.

***Semper Fidelis*** · #4 (**permalink**) 09-30-2009, 06:38 PM

I'm not sure where you wanted to go with it. I assumed you might have read the WLC but wasn't certain. I think it provides a number of points that could be drawn out about debt with especial emphasis on lust for earthly possessions, covetousness, and preserving our estate in a Godly fashion. I don't think there's a problem using a CC if you're paying off the balance every month. I also think taking out loans for things that have real equity (like homes) is fine.

Richard Tallach · #5 (**permalink**) 09-30-2009, 06:52 PM

You could also mention that in a properly organised church and society the poor (non-commercial) loan would be administered by the deacon's court of churches, whereby suitable individuals would be helped in extremis or where they needed help with a valid project by their Christian brothers and sisters lending them money at no interest as per what was started in the OT.

Of course we know from Jesus's parables and elsewhere that lending money commercially at interest is not evil in itself, but loan-sharking and extortionate interest is. In a more Christianised society this whole area would have to be looked at to bring it into line with God's Word.

Ideally Christian brothers and sisters should be looking out for each other financially as an expression of agape rather than having to depend too much on state welfare and commercial lenders. This is another way in which the church could grow stronger, if it was done properly.

Rich Koster · #6 (**permalink**) 09-30-2009, 06:59 PM

Use credit cards only as electronic money.
Never write yourself a loan, it's self deception.
Don't pay interest or fees (bad stewardship), there are freebies.

Andres · #7 (**permalink**) 09-30-2009, 07:03 PM

credit cards and loans are poor stewardship and generally have a spirit of greed behind them - people want things now that they cannot afford and usually don't need. What about Prov 22:7? "The rich rule over the poor, and the borrower is servant to the lender"

Christusregnat · #8 (**permalink**) 09-30-2009, 07:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Semper Fidelis

I think the WLC has some excellent thoughts:

Yeah, but that was the Old Testament!

Edward · #9 (**permalink**) 09-30-2009, 08:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andres

credit cards and loans are poor stewardship and generally have a spirit of greed behind them - people want things now that they cannot afford and usually don't need.

To some extent, the same thing can be said of churches who go deeply in debt to build facilities that they want, but don't need.

Backwoods Presbyterian · #10 (**permalink**) 09-30-2009, 08:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Christusregnat

Quote:

Originally Posted by Semper Fidelis

I think the WLC has some excellent thoughts:

Yeah, but that was the Old Testament!

Beat me to it Christus... I was going to say something about those mean old divines quoting the case laws...

Christusregnat · #11 (**permalink**) 09-30-2009, 08:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Backwoods Presbyterian

Beat me to it Christus... I was going to say something about those mean old divines quoting the case laws...

Name'a Adam Brink partner! Howdy!

**py3ak** · #12 (**permalink**) 09-30-2009, 08:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Romans922

I'm preaching on stealing, what should I say about loans and credit cards? In your words, how far would you use the Word to correct, rebuke, teach, and train in these areas?

I would think you would not go a hair beyond what you are fully persuaded of and can clearly manifest from Scripture. If you miss something this time around, the Bible speaks about theft a lot so you'll have other opportunities. But it would be wise to be very careful about sniffing out sin in something (though there's no harm in making sure you understand how something works so that you can see more clearly whether there is sin or not).

Backwoods Presbyterian · #13 (**permalink**) 09-30-2009, 09:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Christusregnat

Quote:

Originally Posted by Backwoods Presbyterian

Beat me to it Christus... I was going to say something about those mean old divines quoting the case laws...

Name'a Adam Brink partner! Howdy!

Fancy meeting you in these parts!

OPC'n · #14 (**permalink**) 09-30-2009, 10:23 PM

As a member of a church, I would have to see consistency in your preaching in order to take you serious and be obedient. For example if you feel that loans are a sin, then all loans have to be.....not just the ones you feel are. So you either can or can't have a loan to buy a house and other things as long as you have enough income to pay the bills you loans incur. Or you feel that having loans is unbiblical period.

Dearly Bought · #15 (**permalink**) 09-30-2009, 10:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by py3ak

Quote:

Originally Posted by Romans922

I'm preaching on stealing, what should I say about loans and credit cards? In your words, how far would you use the Word to correct, rebuke, teach, and train in these areas?

I would think you would not go a hair beyond what you are fully persuaded of and can clearly manifest from Scripture. If you miss something this time around, the Bible speaks about theft a lot so you'll have other opportunities. But it would be wise to be very careful about sniffing out sin in something (though there's no harm in making sure you understand how something works so that you can see more clearly whether there is sin or not).

Ruben beat me to it. Just to echo these wise words, I'd encourage you to preach strongly against what you are convinced is sin, but be careful about side commentary. Since you are speaking as a messenger from God in His pulpit, don't add "advice" that isn't clearly grounded in God's Word. Bounce some of these application sections off your wife and ask for her honest opinion whether the connection is strained or immediately apparent. I think pastors' helpmeets are often particularly good with such helpful honesty.

Andres · #16 (**permalink**) 09-30-2009, 11:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Edward

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andres

credit cards and loans are poor stewardship and generally have a spirit of greed behind them - people want things now that they cannot afford and usually don't need.

To some extent, the same thing can be said of churches who go deeply in debt to build facilities that they want, but don't need.

I wouldn't say to some extent, I would say completely the same and true. I won't sugar coat it - churches should not being going deeply into debt for buildings they can't afford and dont need!

JBaldwin · #17 (**permalink**) 10-01-2009, 09:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dearly Bought

Quote:

Originally Posted by py3ak

Quote:

Originally Posted by Romans922

I'm preaching on stealing, what should I say about loans and credit cards? In your words, how far would you use the Word to correct, rebuke, teach, and train in these areas?

I would think you would not go a hair beyond what you are fully persuaded of and can clearly manifest from Scripture. If you miss something this time around, the Bible speaks about theft a lot so you'll have other opportunities. But it would be wise to be very careful about sniffing out sin in something (though there's no harm in making sure you understand how something works so that you can see more clearly whether there is sin or not).

Ruben beat me to it. Just to echo these wise words, I'd encourage you to preach strongly against what you are convinced is sin, but be careful about side commentary. Since you are speaking as a messenger from God in His pulpit, don't add "advice" that isn't clearly grounded in God's Word. Bounce some of these application sections off your wife and ask for her honest opinion whether the connection is strained or immediately apparent. I think pastors' helpmeets are often particularly good with such helpful honesty.

I agree.

At the same time, I think it is important to do the research on the credit card system and find out what is really there. When we finally did some research ourselves (after we had a terrible credit mess), my husband and I were shocked when we realized how much fraud, deceit, theft and outright crime is part of the credit system. Most people are clueless as to what they are really doing when they sign on the dotted line, and the credit card companies are busy making sure folks don't know. It is important that believers know this and decide for themselves if they feel they can in good conscience participate.

While it is an issue, it is a topic that would take the time of an entire sermon to explain to folks, and it would be a diversion from the Scriptures. Rather than spending the time, I would suggest mentioning that folks look into it themselves and then be ready on the side to offer advice or refer them to someone who could educate them more thoroughly.

Richard Tallach · #18 (**permalink**) 10-01-2009, 07:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Christusregnat

Quote:

Originally Posted by Semper Fidelis

I think the WLC has some excellent thoughts:

Yeah, but that was the Old Testament!

I think that all the Reformed should believe in learning from the Old Testament case laws, and everything else in the OT and NT, II Timothy 3:16.

We will not necessarily see eye to eye on what is learnt in every area. But thankfully oftentimes we will. The Church, even the Reformed Church, hasn't reached a fully mature understanding and application of every part of Scripture, Ephesians 4:7-16.

Edward · #19 (**permalink**) 10-01-2009, 08:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andres

Quote:

Originally Posted by Edward

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andres

credit cards and loans are poor stewardship and generally have a spirit of greed behind them - people want things now that they cannot afford and usually don't need.

To some extent, the same thing can be said of churches who go deeply in debt to build facilities that they want, but don't need.

I wouldn't say to some extent, I would say completely the same and true. I won't sugar coat it - churches should not being going deeply into debt for buildings they can't afford and dont need!

I agree. I was trying to be nice - for a change.

lukeh021471 · #20 (**permalink**) 10-02-2009, 08:50 AM

Jame Montgomery Boice as a good chapter 204 in his Romans expositional commentary on debt and sins of neglection.

**turmeric** · #21 (**permalink**) 10-02-2009, 09:44 AM

IMHO the credit-card companies are practicing usury. I am certain that debtors who can pay and don't are stealing, but lots of debtors cannot pay, particularly when hit with uxorious interest-payments. I don't think these people are stealing, but they have behaved unwisely. Again, just my opinion.

Blue Tick · #22 (**permalink**) 10-02-2009, 09:55 AM

Joe Morecraft has a good teaching on debt free living. This may help.

coramdeo · #23 (**permalink**) 10-02-2009, 10:01 AM

Not to go off thread too far, but as far as honesty in business goes (not loans, etc.) there is an excellent prayer in the appendix of my Geneva Bible that I have copied and posted in my office and that I pray each day. I'll paste it here in hope that it may be useful,

A prayer to be said before a
man begin his work.
O Lord God most merciful Father and Savior, seeing
it hath pleased thee to command us to travail, that
we may relieve our need, we beseech thee of thy grace so
to bless our labors, that thy blessing may extend unto
us, without the which we are not able to continue, and
that this great favor may be a witness unto us of thy
bountifulness and assistance, so that thereby we may
know the fatherly care that thou hast over us.
Moreover (O Lord) we beseech thee that thou
wouldest strengthen us with thy holy Spirit, that we
may faithfully travail in our estate and vocation, without
fraud or deceit, and that we may endeavor ourselves
to follow thine holy ordinance, rather than to seek to
satisfy our greedy affections or desire to gain.
And if it please thee (O Lord) to prosper our labor,
give us a mind also to help them that need, according
to that ability that thou of thy mercy shalt give us: And
knowing that all good things come of thee, grant that
we may humble ourselves to our neighbors, and not by
any means lift ourselves above them which have not
received so liberal a portion as of thy mercy thou hast
given unto us. And if it please thee to try and exercise
us by greater poverty and need than our flesh would
desire, that thou wouldest yet (O Lord) grant us grace
to know that thou wilt nourish us continually, through
thy bountiful liberality, that we be not so tempted, that
we fall into distrust, but that we may patiently wait till
thou fill us, not only with corporal graces and benefits,
but chiefly with thine heavenly and spiritual treasures,
to the intent we may always have more ample occasion
to give thee thanks, and wholly to rest upon thy mercies.
Hear us O Lord of mercy, through Jesus Christ thy Son
our Lord, Amen.

rpavich · #24 (**permalink**) 10-02-2009, 10:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andres

credit cards and loans are poor stewardship and generally have a spirit of greed behind them - people want things now that they cannot afford and usually don't need. What about Prov 22:7? "The rich rule over the poor, and the borrower is servant to the lender"

So nobody here owns a house or car that they didn't pay cash for?

Richard Tallach · #25 (**permalink**) 10-02-2009, 10:39 AM

It's clear from the Bible that interest is justified in certain circumstances - is it?

When is it wrong - if ever - to lend money at interest?

Does anyone here believe that lending money at interest should be banned?

What would a Christianised financial system look like?

rpavich · #26 (**permalink**) 10-02-2009, 10:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Richard Tallach

It's clear from the Bible that interest is justified in certain circumstances - is it?

When is it wrong - if ever - to lend money at interest?

Does anyone here believe that lending money at interest should be banned?

What would a Christianised financial system look like?

I might be wrong but the bible admonition is against "making a killing off of others misfortune" as in "you need this loan and you are over a barrel? Good...it's at 45%!" type of thing.

Puritan Sailor · #27 (**permalink**) 10-02-2009, 10:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Richard Tallach

It's clear from the Bible that interest is justified in certain circumstances - is it?

When is it wrong - if ever - to lend money at interest?

Does anyone here believe that lending money at interest should be banned?

What would a Christianised financial system look like?

In the OT, it was wrong to charge interest to the needy. You were not allowed to profit from your brothers affliction. But commercial interest was allowed when dealing with foreigners in matters of commerce.

Regarding the issue of modern loans though, I think we need to make a distinction between investments and loans. A mortgage is really an investment if done wisely. Same with cars or necessary things. But using credit to indulge in our greeds would not be an investment in our estate but ultimately damaging our estate and soul.

JBaldwin · #28 (**permalink**) 10-02-2009, 11:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Richard Tallach

It's clear from the Bible that interest is justified in certain circumstances - is it?

When is it wrong - if ever - to lend money at interest?

Does anyone here believe that lending money at interest should be banned?

What would a Christianised financial system look like?

Borrowing money to buy a house or car at a fixed interest rate is a whole lot different than credit cards which have no fixed rate (they don't, because the credit card companies reserve the right to change the interest rate any time they wish). When you borrow money from a bank to make a house or car purchase, there is a truth-in-lending agreement required by law which spells out the details of the loan.

IMHO, the whole monetary system where you borrow money and pay interest so that bank can loan out more money is crooked. For the Christian who loans out money, any interest (and it should be small), should cover the cost and time of administering the loan.

The few times my husband and I have loaned out money, we've laid down a few rules:

1) Don't lend what we can't afford to loose.
2) If we charge any extra, it's a small fee based on the amount of time and effort it costs to administer the loan.
3) Don't lend money to someone who we don't think can pay it back, unless we want them to have it anyway. (for example, we once loaned a fairly large amount of money to a friend who we thought probably would never be able to pay us, but he desperately needed it, and he wouldn't take it without a loan. By the way, he paid back every dime.)

Edward · #29 (**permalink**) 10-02-2009, 07:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rpavich

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andres

credit cards and loans are poor stewardship and generally have a spirit of greed behind them - people want things now that they cannot afford and usually don't need. What about Prov 22:7? "The rich rule over the poor, and the borrower is servant to the lender"

So nobody here owns a house or car that they didn't pay cash for?

Liquidity is not something to be ignored. Just because I can afford something doesn't mean that I should use available cash to acquire the asset. The difference between interest paid and interest received is the price I'm currently willing to pay for liquidity.

And for those who believe that current policies will contribute to inflation, long term debt at current fixed rates may mean that inflation will eventually give you a negative cost for your money.

**py3ak** · #30 (**permalink**) 10-02-2009, 07:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by turmeric

IMHO the credit-card companies are practicing usury. I am certain that debtors who can pay and don't are stealing, but lots of debtors cannot pay, particularly when hit with uxorious interest-payments. I don't think these people are stealing, but they have behaved unwisely. Again, just my opinion.

I think you meant exorbitant, Meg. Although no doubt a lot of people in debt are excessively submissive to their wives.

OPC'n · #31 (**permalink**) 10-02-2009, 07:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rpavich

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andres

credit cards and loans are poor stewardship and generally have a spirit of greed behind them - people want things now that they cannot afford and usually don't need. What about Prov 22:7? "The rich rule over the poor, and the borrower is servant to the lender"

So nobody here owns a house or car that they didn't pay cash for?

My dad but he's got lots of cash with which to do this. I don't know any other person who has bought a house with cash.

**turmeric** · #32 (**permalink**) 10-02-2009, 07:39 PM

Ruben! I meant usurious, but misspelled it.