I think we are discussing what is 'ordinary'. I am not sure about the circumstances of Bunyan's situation but it is possible that God had him doing exactly what He wanted. Same with Ray Comfort and Kirk Cameron. Ordinarily their ministry should be under the authority of a church but I no that we don't live in ordinary times.

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I have heard some men who have been ordained who did not possess the gift required.

I am sure you have. All that would mean is that they should seek ordination.

I do not know much about him, other than to say he is not above being wrong.

There should be no distinction, the minister of the gospel is to do both whilst the lay person is to do neither.

Exceptional men are not the rule.

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Josh Hicks, Chloë's Daddy
Member of TRBC. My Blog
The Puritan Pub (Team Blog)
Board Rules -- Signature Requirements -- Suggestions?

OK. I'll go along with that.

My view is that not everyone is called in to full time ministry. Perhaps I am being tripped up on terminology. I know of many men who are Lay-Preachers. Admittedly, most are not Reformed...

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Joseph R. Guth Jr. Deacon (In Training) Community Bible Church of Rockford

Unless I am convinced by proofs from Scriptures or by plain and clear reasons and arguments, I can and will not retract, for it is neither safe nor wise to do anything against conscience. Here I stand. I can do no other. God help me. Amen.

Martin Luther (1483 - 1546), Luther's Response to the Inquisition at the Diet of Worms

How about a Lay-Preacher? These guys have jobs and don't do full time ministry for whatever reason.

Nor is the antithesis quite so profound as some would make it. There are cases of men with preaching gifts yet lacking pastoral skills and even in Presbyterian circles I believe some denoms recognize the office of evangelist as one who does street preaching although not ordained to a church. Brownlow North was one such example.

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In Christ's love and service

Mr. Tim Cunningham, Dip. CS (Regent College)
Member, First Baptist Church
Vancouver, BC

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"The Reformation was a time when men went blind, staggering drunk because they had discovered, in the dusty basement of late medievalism, a whole cellar of 1500-year-old, 200 proof grace—a bottle after bottle of pure distillate of Scripture, one sip of which would convince anyone that God saves us single-handedly. The word of the gospel—after all these centuries of trying to lift yourself into heaven by worrying about the perfection of your own bootstraps—suddenly turned out to be a flat announcement that the saved were home-free before they started. Grace was to be drunk neat: no water, no ice, and certainly no ginger ale." – Robert Farrar Capon

*bump*

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Bill Brown
Elder
Grace Baptist Church
Anne Arundel County, Maryland

Click to get: Board Rules -- Signature Requirements -- Suggestions?

I think you both need to define what you mean by 'lay preacher'. If the definition of a 'lay preacher' is that they are not called to 'full-time ministry' then I am a 'lay preacher' because I am not a full-time pastor. Or does 'lay preacher' mean someone who is asked by a church to preach but has not been formally ordained? If so, then the fact that a church has asked the man to preach is kind of an informal 'ordination' if only for a limited time. This man is still under the 'covering' of a church so to speak.

And, if I may add to Bill's question, what is a 'seminary'? Are all seminaries qualified to train preachers? If not, what are the criteria?

When I speak of a Lay-Preacher, I mean someone who has a fulltime living outside of the church and preaches in whatever role the Lord calls him to.

In your opinion ... where is the line between one to one witnessing to unbelievers and preaching? If there is a group of three that a lay person is witnessing to ... is that preaching?

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Dan
Member, Soaring Oaks Presbyterian (PCA)
www.soaringoaks.org
Northern California
The duty of a theologian is, not to please the ear with empty sounds, but to confirm the conscience by teaching things which are true, certain and profitable.
John Calvin, 1559

In my case (and in many others) I have a 'fulltime living outside the church' and am also the Pastor of a church. Certainly it is not ideal, but I don't consider myself to be a 'lay preacher'.

Are you asking if it is possible for God to gift and to send a preacher without also providing a full time Pastorate? Then the answer is yes. Even Paul had to make a living outside the church.

Exactly Pergy. This is the result of the error that man must look from the kingdom to the church(building). We have had it backwards for many many years. Our focus should be Go and teach, then have the Holy Spirit direct them to wherever He sees fit. We have spent too much time "churching" people then teaching them. God adds to the church not man.

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N. Robert; Trinity Reformed Church RCA, Holland MI

Once in a while you can get shown the light, in the strangest of places if you look at it right."

You dont....

I totally disagree with this sentiment Joshua. This is the crux of the Grace of God throughout the writ. To take uneducated, vile, sinful, hated people and then give them a gift happens all the time.

Remember God does not choose the qualified, but he most certainly qualifies those He chooses.

Read this please:

MYSTERY BABYLON DENOMINATION
FOREIGN MISSIONS BOARD

To: Rev. Saul Paul
First Christian Church
Antioch, Syria

Dear Mr. Paul:

I have your application for missionary appointment before me, and will be as frank as possible concerning your qualifications as a foreign missionary. We have to be very careful in choosing our missionaries, and our Missions Board has reviewed your case thoroughly. We have decided that it would be unwise to send you to the foreign field for the following reasons:

1. It has come to our attention that you are doing secular work on the side. We do not feel that making tents and full time ministry go together very well. [1Th 2:9] It seems that you do not have enough experience in trusting the Lord for your income. You should make up your mind whether you want to preach or continue your profession.

2. Your previous actions have been very rash and unseemly for a minister. We learned that in a public meeting you opposed Dr. Simon Peter, an esteemed minister with a high reputation. [Ga 2:11-14] We also hear that you refused to compromise with other ministers such that a special council meeting had to be called in Jerusalem to prevent a serious split in the churches. [Ac 15:1-30] We frown on putting ideology before people. For your own good, I am enclosing a copy of Daius' Carnegus book on "How to Win Jews and Influence Greeks." [Ga 1:10, 1Th 2:4-6]

3. You have conflicted with mature Jewish brethren in nearly every city you have visited who simply want to encourage the converted Pagans to be properly circumcised. Mr. Paul, you must know that these men are our most learned sages with a deep sense of the roots and history of our faith. As well, and more importantly, these men control the synagogues you could be ministering in if you would simply tone down your dialog into a more friendly and respectful exchange. [Gal 5:2-12]

4. In checking back, we discovered your Christian education consisted of a three year course in Arabia. [Ga 1:15-20] We find that the Arabian school has not been approved by our accreditation board.

5. Further, you admit to being an unskilled public speaker. [2Co 10:10, 11:6] Paul, surely you must know that people expect fine elocution from men of God, and that as a denomination we stand for the highest levels of excellence in the pulpit. Yet instead of going to much-needed oratory classes you spend your time making tents instead. From your correspondence, you also appear to be spending a considerable amount of time writing letters to insignificant little "churches" that meet in homes. [Ac 28:3-6] Honestly now; do you really think that such misguided activities are what will lead to your success in the world of religion? We strongly suggest that you put down your tools and set aside your pen, and instead practice hand gestures, facial expressions, and voice modulation in front of a mirror for several hours a day until you come up to par.

6. It has come to the attention also that you often emphasize "the power of God" and "the gifts of the Spirit." [1Co 2:3-5, 12:1-7] Also that you speak in tongues a great deal. [1Co 14:18] Surely you realize that such as this only drives off the better class of people, and attracts only the riff-raff. It would be better to tone down those more sensational forms of worship. You sound as though you are "off the deep end." [1Co 3:18]

7. It has been proven to our satisfaction that you had hands laid on you at Antioch with prophecy going forth, [Ac 13:1-3] with none of the Apostles or Headquarters brethren present to conduct this ordination service in the prescribed manner.( i love this one)

8. We see here that you have a jail record in several places. [2Co 11:23-27] If this is true, it puts you in a bad light, for our denomination has always stood for a high standard of civic responsibility. I fear it would damage our reputation to have someone representing us that had served time in jails and prisons. Frankly, Mr. Paul, we seriously doubt you could have been innocent and the judge wrong in so many cases. It just doesn't look right.

9. It seems that you are a troublemaker, Mr. Paul. Several business men of Ephesus have written us that you were the cause of severe loss of business to them and even stirred mob violence. You must learn to cultivate the friendship and influence of men such as these. [Ac 16:16-22]

10. We also have some details of a shameful "over the wall in a basket" episode at Damascus, [2Co 11:30-33] plus a stoning at Lystra, and several other violent actions taken against your ministry. [2Ti 3:11] Haven't you ever suspected that conciliatory behavior and gentler words might gain you more friends?

11. We have learned through channels that following some trouble with a preacher on the island of Cyprus, you began to allow yourself to be known by the Gentile pronunciation of your name rather than the proper Hebrew. [Ac 13:4-11] Yet another conflict, and then a name change. This does not seem to us to be conduct becoming to the ministry.

12. You admitted in your application that in the past you neglected such needy fields as Bithynia, just because "the Spirit didn't lead that way," and that you undertook a hazardous journey on the strength of a dream you had at Troas. [Ac 16:6-10] Mr. Paul, surely you don't expect us to go along with such flimsy and fantastic excuses for your seemingly purposeless wanderings.

13. Many times you did not stay long enough, in our opinion, to get a church properly established. You left your converts many times without even a pastor to guide them, and without setting the church in order in some good hierarchical denomination. [Ts 1:5]

14. We hear also from Troas that you preach too long, one sermon lasting almost twenty-four hours, even to the extent that a young man fell asleep and was seriously injured. [Ac 20:7-12] We understand that you claim to have restored his life and raised him from the dead by falling on him and embracing him. What nonsense! We need practical men in the ministry, Mr. Paul, not high strung emotional radicals. Our advice is for you to shorten your sermons considerably. We find that about twenty minutes is the longest a minister can hold the attention of his audience these days. Our motto is "Stand up, speak up, and shut up."

15. It is reported from your home church that you could not get along with your fellow ministers; that John Mark--a commendable young man and nephew of one of our highest leaders--had to leave your party in the middle of a journey; and that you had a sharp quarrel with gentle, good natured Barnabas. [Ac 15:36-40] Now these men are well thought of in Jerusalem and we wonder why you are always having trouble with your fellow workers?

16. We have notarized affidavits from four very popular and influential preachers: Diotrephes, Demas, Hymenaeus, and Alexander; to the effect that it is impossible for them to cooperate with either you or your program. [1Ti 1:20]

17. From what we hear, you seem to think that you have some direct sanction from on-high, boasting about your revelations and that God has chosen you to reveal some "Mystery". [Ep 3:3-4] Can't you realize that any truth that is to be revealed would come through Headquarters to the recognized, established brethren, and that after it had been checked by our Procedure and Doctrine Committee that we would distribute it on to the field workers?

18. Finally, we hear that you claim to be an Apostle. We know nothing of this being passed upon by the proper authoritative channels and wonder how you could back that claim up, when the last Apostle was voted into office right here in Jerusalem. [Ac 1:26] Now that our denomination is firmly established, why do you imagine there would be any need for God to continue the Apostolic gifting?

As you see, Mr. Paul, we feel definitely after close scrutiny of your case, that you are undoubtedly the most unqualified applicant we have ever seen, and my advice for you is to find a church where you can work in harmony, and use your past education as perhaps a Sunday School teacher.

I hope I have prevented you from making a terrible mistake in your life.

Most sincerely yours,

J. Flavios Fluphehead, SECY


All who are called of God can preach, teach, evangelize anywhere and anyplace the Holy Spirit deems necessary. No letters after their name are needed.

I do not think "laymen" have to present a three point sermon on the street,or in a public place. However I believe it is sin not to prayerfully seek any and all opportunities to present Christ to a dying world.
As part of that presentation a person could explain the special place that God has given to the word of God ,and how Preacher's are given as gifts to the church. It does not have to be an either ,or , situation.
Explain the christian life, from regeneration and justification, to santification and glorification showing how the word is central to our knowing God and His salvation. Then invite the person to hear the word preached the next Lord's day.

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Anthony D'Arienzo
Sunday School Teacher
Hope Reformed Baptist Church:
Medford, N.Y.

LBC 1689, Chpt 26

Paragraph 11. Although it be incumbent on the bishops or pastors of the churches, to be instant in preaching the word, by way of office, yet the work of preaching the word is not so peculiarly confined to them but that others also gifted and fitted by the Holy Spirit for it, and approved and called by the church, may and ought to perform it.

Acts 11:19-21

19 Now those who were scattered after the persecution that arose over Stephen traveled as far as Phoenicia, Cyprus, and Antioch, preaching the word to no one but the Jews only. 20 But some of them were men from Cyprus and Cyrene, who, when they had come to Antioch, spoke to the Hellenists, preaching the Lord Jesus. 21 And the hand of the Lord was with them, and a great number believed and turned to the Lord.
NKJV

1 Peter 4:10-11

10 As each one has received a gift, minister it to one another, as good stewards of the manifold grace of God. 11 If anyone speaks, let him speak as the oracles of God. If anyone ministers, let him do it as with the ability which God supplies, that in all things God may be glorified through Jesus Christ, to whom belong the glory and the dominion forever and ever. Amen.
NKJV