Preaching in broadly evangelical venues

AThornquist · #1 (**permalink**) 07-16-2009, 11:31 PM

Lord willing, I will again minister to the youth in the local juvenile hall in the near future. I last ministered to them a year and a half ago as a senior in high-school, but since then I have changed doctrinally by leaps and bounds. Now, I oppose some of what is being taught in the hall. It's your typical mix of easy-believism, a weak gospel (though the Lord is powerful to save!), decisional regeneration, charismatic teachings, etc. While I want total unity with my fellow laborers, I feel very uncomfortable with loose doctrine and watering down the Word for the sake of not offending others.

Understand that I won't teach as a Calvinist. I am a Christian; I will teach the text as it ought to be taught, whatever it is. Thus, I won't go out of my why to teach election, predestination, etc. if the text doesn't warrant it. However, when the text does warrant it, I am afraid of the ramifications. I fear what my soteriologically unsound brothers and sisters might say or do to perhaps make it clear that the "Bible teachers" are at odds with one another, thus possibly damaging our message. Would it be better to not worry about it, as in "fight the battle when it comes and 'til then labor faithfully?"

Is there any advice you might have for a brother who is preaching and teaching in a doctrinal melting pot? How can I be firm without sounding arrogant or all-knowing? At this point my only conclusion is that I must always go back to the Word. The Bible is the authority; I teach not my words, so I could make it evident why I believe what I believe and, if they won't accept it, I simply ignore their disagreements and encourage them to teach the Word of God faithfully because teachers will be judged more strictly (Jas. 3). Any thoughts?

Thank you. Oh, and please be praying for me, the kids in juvy, and that the Lord's will be done.

Pergamum · #2 (**permalink**) 07-16-2009, 11:33 PM

Don't use "trigger words" or terminology that would inflame, make your points from Scripture instead of from terms used in systematic theology (eg., "Calvinism" makes many people mad, but if you teach Calvinism without labels, they might shout AMEN! and agree).

Reformed Rush · #3 (**permalink**) 07-16-2009, 11:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AThornquist

Understand that I won't teach as a Calvinist. I am a Christian;

I take great offense at this attitude and approach and this judgment; implying Calvinists are not Christian, or to be Christian must be witnessed apart from the historical Reformed Faith, which is nothing but Calvinist.

Grillsy · #4 (**permalink**) 07-16-2009, 11:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reformed Rush

Quote:

Originally Posted by AThornquist

Understand that I won't teach as a Calvinist. I am a Christian;

I take great offense at this attitude and approach and this judgment; implying Calvinists are not Christian, or to be Christian must be witnessed apart from the historical Reformed Faith, which is nothing but Calvinist.

Rush, not sure if you are joking here or not. You seem to be a little polemical in your posts.

The man is not saying that Calvinists aren't Christians...note the period separating the sentences.

I agree that the historic Reformed faith is Calvinistic. But Perg makes a good point about being careful about what terminology we use in certain churches.

AThornquist · #5 (**permalink**) 07-17-2009, 12:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reformed Rush

Quote:

Originally Posted by AThornquist

Understand that I won't teach as a Calvinist. I am a Christian;

I take great offense at this attitude and approach and this judgment; implying Calvinists are not Christian, or to be Christian must be witnessed apart from the historical Reformed Faith, which is nothing but Calvinist.

You misunderstood. Some people will only talk about something if it has to do with Calvinism. They will overrun every topic, conversation, and sermon with Calvinism, Calvinism, Calvinism... when we are Christians, much more than mere Calvinists. I myself am a Calvinist (kind of hard to not be one on this board!) but I don't want to be a person who can't teach, learn, or consider other areas of Christianity in depth because it is not "the topic that makes every other topic pale in comparison." That was my purpose in making such a distinction. If you don't take that little bit out of context it is more clear since I go on to say that I will teach every passage as it is to be taught, regardless of the topic, considering all Christian doctrine and not just soteriology.

Regardless, do you have any advice or encouragement, dear brother?

-----Added 7/17/2009 at 12:26:50 EST-----

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pergamum

Don't use "trigger words" or terminology that would inflame, make your points from Scripture instead of from terms used in systematic theology (eg., "Calvinism" makes many people mad, but if you teach Calvinism without labels, they might shout AMEN! and agree).

Good point. A lot of non-Calvinists have great misconceptions about what Calvinism actually is, so avoiding such terminology does seem wise. Thank you.

AThornquist · #6 (**permalink**) 07-17-2009, 01:53 PM

What about when they try to get the kids to say the "sinner's prayer?" Do I say (kindly), "though that's not a model of conversion anywhere in Scripture; a Biblical model would be A, B, and C?" Of course, that would mean that I would be questioning the actions of my fellow laborers in front of the unbelievers. Would such questioning and disagreement be as harmful to our cause as I think it may be or am I overreacting? Sure, those who will be saved will be saved but there is the issue of theological ambiguity. "Well, they can't even agree on what the Bible says. I wonder if we really can know the things of God..."

busdriver72 · #7 (**permalink**) 09-01-2009, 11:10 AM

For about two years I had to teach a youth group.
I would often start with questions to get their attention....get them involved.
Questions get the mind working and open.
SO many youth today have wrong views of God Himself, and Christ Himself.
Lost is the exalted, lifted-up, glorious Biblical view of the holy, all-knowing, all-present, all-powerful nature of God.
I also did a take-off from a popular TV series called "Mythbusters." We did a series of busting various myths concerning Jesus, "busting" the myths with Biblical truth.

cih1355 · #8 (**permalink**) 09-01-2009, 12:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AThornquist

What about when they try to get the kids to say the "sinner's prayer?" Do I say (kindly), "though that's not a model of conversion anywhere in Scripture; a Biblical model would be A, B, and C?" Of course, that would mean that I would be questioning the actions of my fellow laborers in front of the unbelievers. Would such questioning and disagreement be as harmful to our cause as I think it may be or am I overreacting? Sure, those who will be saved will be saved but there is the issue of theological ambiguity. "Well, they can't even agree on what the Bible says. I wonder if we really can know the things of God..."

Tell the kids to repent and trust in Christ alone for their salvation. One can believe in Christ without the saying the sinner's prayer. If the kids say they want to believe in Christ, then tell them to start believing.

Pergamum · #9 (**permalink**) 09-01-2009, 01:01 PM

About the sinner's prayer:

If in a large group of "broadly evangelical people" and you are not in charge and the leader initiates the sinner's prayer, you can thank the leaders for their concerns over souls and then stress to the youths that you are not to trust in any work of your hand to save you, but in faith in Christ.

You can again thank the leaders for their concern for the souls of these youths and then address the youth as such: "As you go through life and wonder about the state of your soul, this prayer is not designed to give you an infallible assurance of your salvation. The question is not whether I HAVE prayed it, but whether prayer is the ONGOING and CONSISTENT practice of my life and if you lack assurance, there is no need to look to your reciting of a sinner's prayer, but look, instead, to PRESENT faith in Christ."

In some venues, old habits die hard, and many prison or juvie evangelists think that to be "evangelistic" one must end with the sinner's prayer. If you are not in charge, then trying to fight this might only lead in frustration and the closing of your doors of ministry.

Instead, stress that we as sinners all should pray and continue to do so, only trusting in Christ and beging that God would grant us true faith and true repentance, and stressing that this prayer is not "checking the box" or "punching the ticket" but is the first step in a life of continual prayers, each one asking for faith and repentance.

**Marrow Man** · #10 (**permalink**) 09-01-2009, 01:06 PM

Even "Reformed" folk can be guilty of using "the sinner's prayer." It is part of Evangelism Explosion, iirc. And I was at a Ligonier Conference one year where we were given free copies of a sermon (I forget by whom) read by Max McLean entitled "Come Before Winter" (based on a verse from 2 Timothy). It essentially had a form of the sinner's prayer at the end, which I found quite odd considering the conference.

Old habit do die hard. But they do need to die. Reformed folk sometimes fall short because we are quick to kill without necessarily offering a (Biblical) alternative.

Ivan · #11 (**permalink**) 09-01-2009, 01:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marrow Man

And I was at a Ligonier Conference one year where we were given free copies of a sermon (I forget by whom) read by Max McLean entitled "Come Before Winter" (based on a verse from 2 Timothy). It essentially had a form of the sinner's prayer at the end, which I found quite odd considering the conference.

Clarence MacCartney?

SemperEruditio · #12 (**permalink**) 09-01-2009, 01:15 PM

Preach and let the Word handle it. DO NOT argue with the fellow brothers/sisters. The best way to avoid that is not to use the "Calvinist" buzzwords as it were. Don't turn everything into a debate about predestination as many predestinarians do. We all know there is more to Calvinism that predestination but that seems to be all Calvinism is now equated to. If you do have to correct then if you are doing it in love, meekness, and respect then you will be fine. One way is to keep your voice calm and gentle...and avoid gripping your seat and gritting your teeth.

OPC'n · #13 (**permalink**) 09-01-2009, 01:23 PM

Oh the dreaded sinner's prayer! I"m a sinner and I pray.....does that make my prayer a sinner's prayer? If done correct, the sinner's prayer is ordered to be done in Scripture. If they are wanting the Gospel after you've taught them it, then have them say a sinner's prayer! Tell them to confess that they are depraved and on their way to hell unless God out of His mercy redeems them. Tell them to confess that Christ is the only way and they need Him so very desperately. Then tell them that for the rest of their lives they will say a sinner's prayer asking God to sanctify them every minute of every day.

**Marrow Man** · #14 (**permalink**) 09-01-2009, 02:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ivan

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marrow Man

And I was at a Ligonier Conference one year where we were given free copies of a sermon (I forget by whom) read by Max McLean entitled "Come Before Winter" (based on a verse from 2 Timothy). It essentially had a form of the sinner's prayer at the end, which I found quite odd considering the conference.

Clarence MacCartney?

That's possible, but I really don't remember. It was more of an emotional sermon. The end of it may have been more of an "altar call" than a sinner's prayer. Now that I think about it, I'm not quite sure. I don't believe I have the CD any longer, either.

Scott1 · #15 (**permalink**) 09-01-2009, 03:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AThornquist

Lord willing, I will again minister to the youth in the local juvenile hall in the near future. I last ministered to them a year and a half ago as a senior in high-school, but since then I have changed doctrinally by leaps and bounds. Now, I oppose some of what is being taught in the hall. It's your typical mix of easy-believism, a weak gospel (though the Lord is powerful to save!), decisional regeneration, charismatic teachings, etc.
Yes, what a "fluffy mess" men have made of the gospel and biblical discipleship. After one understands it is wrong biblically, then one realizes how shallow and superficial it- one can even get bored with it.

While I want total unity with my fellow laborers, I feel very uncomfortable with loose doctrine and watering down the Word for the sake of not offending others.

Understand that I won't teach as a Calvinist. I am a Christian; I will teach the text as it ought to be taught, whatever it is. Thus, I won't go out of my why to teach election, predestination, etc. if the text doesn't warrant it. However, when the text does warrant it, I am afraid of the ramifications. I fear what my soteriologically unsound brothers and sisters might say or do to perhaps make it clear that the "Bible teachers" are at odds with one another, thus possibly damaging our message. Would it be better to not worry about it, as in "fight the battle when it comes and 'til then labor faithfully?"

Whose authority are you under? Is there a governing board or mission agency you report to on this?

If there is, let them know you are reformed, a Calvinist soteriology, covenant theology, and one of the historic confessions of faith. Tell them you want to feel free to teach the passages as you understand them. If they want you to avoid a certain area, do so in respect of their authority. Then ask if you are asked a direct question that leads into that area may you answer it, or decline to do so in that context.

Let them know you understand authority, you don't have an agenda to outwit theirs, but you need to present the gospel and biblical discipleship as you believe God had revealed it.

Is there any advice you might have for a brother who is preaching and teaching in a doctrinal melting pot? How can I be firm without sounding arrogant or all-knowing? At this point my only conclusion is that I must always go back to the Word. The Bible is the authority; I teach not my words, so I could make it evident why I believe what I believe and, if they won't accept it, I simply ignore their disagreements and encourage them to teach the Word of God faithfully because teachers will be judged more strictly (Jas. 3). Any thoughts?

We cannot knowingly teach falsely. However, you likely will find in this setting, there is not a lot of doctrinal sophistication required.

Thank you. Oh, and please be praying for me, the kids in juvy, and that the Lord's will be done.

.

Pergamum · #16 (**permalink**) 09-01-2009, 03:49 PM

I would thank and congratulate folks at encouraging people to pray, even a "Sinner's Prayer". And then use the relationships that you are nurturing to teach a more biblical view of prayer, not by opposing those around you, but by congratulating them on the good things that they say and then adding on to this by stressing that we are not to fall into works-rightousness by even trsuting in the works of our prayers to save us.

Prayer IS a good thing and we should always be encouraging people to pray.

I would, however, use all occasions to stress that this prayer is the beginning point of a consistent life of constant prayer and that one should not trust to one single, solitary prayer for their assurance, but should actively always be checking their spiritual state against their prayer life, beliefs, and patterns of sin in their life.

If someone is convicted of sin and asks you to say the sinner's prayer with them, I would pray with them and not discourage prayer. I would just begin with a few minutes about explaining how we ought to pray and use this as a platform to teach good beliefs concerning prayer without denying them the chance to pray, discouraging them, or focusing on wrong beliefs.

Also, in a venue such as this, I think there is no need to label yourself as a "Calvinistic, Covenantal, Confessional, etc, etc, etc, beleiver..." Just label yourself as a Christian.