I will receive the Master of Ministry degree next month. I want to preach and nothing else. If I understand right, an evangelist preaches and that is it. What role does the evangelist have in the Reformed church today? Would I need to get an MDiv degree to evangelize on a large scale? A pastor preaches, teaches, and counsels, and I can understand why you'd need a seminary education to do this. But would an MMin degree be enough education for an evangelist?

So you've changed your mind about getting a M.Div. and being a pastor? That's what your profile says.

__________________
Ivan R. Schoen, B.A., M.A., M.L.I.S.
Pastor of Maranatha Baptist Church (SBC)
Poplar Grove, IL, USA
http://maranatha-sbc.org

I don't think a person would need one since even women can be evangelists. Once the evangelist has seen that a person has accepted Christ, then it's the evangelist's duty to steer that person to a biblically based church.

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sarah
WI
OPC
My Pastor's Sermons: Mark Jenkins...he's awesome!!!

Giving the Gospel is not the same as leading worship. Let's not confuse evangelism with preaching in worship. To answer your OP question, I do believe that although seminary education is a great boon to leading worship and thus preaching to the people of God, it is not an absolute requirement.

Theognome

__________________
Bill Cunningham
Covenant Reformed Church, URC
Kansas City
There are three kinds of people- those who can count, and those who can't.

It's going to vary based on the denomination. In the PCA, Evangelist is an ordained position. For some additional information, click here:

PCA Book of Church Order: Chapters 20 - 23

particularly 21-11

__________________
Edward
Deacon
PCA
Texas

Ditto Theognome's post.

Not necessary but very helpful.

__________________
Will Adair
will@crossmarkchurch.com

Crossmark Church: informing, reforming, transforming, God willing never boring.

Crossmark Church exists to glorify God by lives changed by Jesus Christ. As the lead elder its my job to help see that happen, God willing.

I think this must be a question for Presbys...

__________________


http://www.villagecommunitychurch.org/


"Preparing a sermon is like cooking a meal. You need pots and pans and utensils, but you don't bring them out to the table where people are eating." Derek Thomas


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Victor is OPC.

Victor and Sarah,

I would like to call your attention to what our Form of Government says about Evangelists since both of you are OPC members like me.

Book of Church Order: Form of Government - Chapter VII: Evangelists

Update:
Since the Evangelist is said here to be one who is ordained into the sacred office of the minister, I do believe that whatever requirements that had been set by our denomination for one to be ordained would also be the same requirements that one aspiring for the office of the Evangelist must meet. If this is correct, then that would mean that Victor has to first pass the licentiate exam in order to become a licentiate and then take the ordination exam.

__________________
Joel de Leon
Member (man under care)
Christ Presbyterian Church, OPC
Salt Lake City, UT

The Cleansed Leper

Does this mean a seminary M.Div. and ordination in the OPC?

Evangelist: a person who seeks to convert others to the Christian faith, esp. by public preaching.
• a layperson engaged in Christian missionary work.

If it is true that women are not evangelist in the OPC, then that means I don't ever have to share the Gospel with anyone ever again. Not sure that's what my pastor teaches. I have been taught that Christian woman cannot teach Christian men, but that Christian woman can teach unsaved men and woman the Gospel. I'll have to talk to my pastor about this. Is there another name for laymen who spread the Gospel then and that's what I'm think of?

I can't speak for the OPC, but ordinarily in the PCA, the answer would be 'yes'. There are provisions for extraordinary ordination by a presbytery of a man that doesn't have an M.Div., but that should be a rare and unusual situation.

-----Added 5/31/2009 at 01:16:01 EST-----

In some Presbyterian bodies, Evangalist refers to a particular calling for an ordained man. The Evangelist has additional powers since he is usually working toward planting a church in a dark area, with session (elected to that body or borrowed) available.

I've been told by an OPC minister that it is not necessary for one to have an M. Div. in order to be ordained in the denomination. However, the exams are rigorous and the person who takes the exams would either have to be someone who has studied all the topics that are covered by the exam on his own (this would require lots of discipline) or had gone to a good seminary that taught him the things he must know in order to pass.

BTW, even if a man has gone to seminary and earned an M. Div., that is still no guarantee that that person will be ordained. I know of a person who, even though he had an M. Div., failed his first licentiate exam and was advised to take the Presuppositional Apologetics course with MTIOPC. This person, who is now an ordained minister in the OPC, told me that he did not learn Presuppositional Apologetics from the seminary he graduated from.

So, Chippy, what are laymen called who spread the Gospel if they are not evangelists? I have to admit I really don't know much about church gov. That's one thing I've never taken the time to study.

We have to make a distinction between the office of the Evangelist and the responsibility of every believer to evangelize. Just like the office of a Teaching or Ruling Elder, not everyone is called into it.

The layperson who happens to be doing his duty by confessing Christ to the people around him is not necessarily an Evangelist (one who holds office in Christ's church). We are all called to be ambassadors for Christ and to be doing our responsibility does not put us in the position of one bearing an office in the church.

And, the task of an Evangelist is no ordinary thing. Sometimes the task of the Evangelist is to go into an area in order to establish a base (formed by a group of believers) from which a church could be started. This would sometimes take years and once the base has been established, a pastor is called in to minister to the flock.

-----Added 5/31/2009 at 01:57:09 EST-----

Are we not all called to be ambassadors for Christ (2 Cor. 5:20)? Are not all believers called the salt of the earth and the light of the world (Matthew 5:13-16)? As our FoG affirms, all believers are called to confess Christ before men. To do so would simply mean that that layperson is doing his duty in that area, that does not give him the privilege of being distinctly called an Evangelist (I am referring to the office here).

Laypersons sometimes help their deacons in doing their tasks. Sometimes the deacons would have to form committees or assign people to do certain tasks. Now, does that make these laypersons deacons as well? The answer is NO. Because the title of the deacon is only given to the one who bears that office and in the OPC, deacons are ordained into that office. I sometimes help clean and prepare our church for Sunday worship but that doesn't make me a deacon.

Our Book of Church Order can be viewed online. The OPC Form of Government can be studied in one sitting. I recommend that you study it. In fact, the reason why I am pointing this out to you is in order to demonstrate the importance of studying our denomination's Book of Church Order. It must not be neglected for it is part of our standards.

The OPC website says this:

P.S. Sarah, I do understand that my opinion doesn't count for much since I'm simply a layperson. But, please, do read our Form of Government, it's all there. Even your own pastor would have to be consistent with our FoG in answering your questions.

Some of the most stellar preaching and teaching I've ever heard is from men who never darkened the door of a seminary.

__________________
Toni Cunningham, Wife of Bill (Theognome)
Parkwoods OPC, Overland Park KS

"Vice is a monster of so frightful mien, As, to be hated, needs but to be seen; Yet seen too oft, familiar with her face, We first endure, then pity, then embrace." ~ Alexander Pope

I have both preached and tought and I do not have a degree

__________________
Martin - Reformed
Husband to the most godly, honorable and loyal wife Line
Searching for a Church
Webpage www.5solas.dk
Free Online Reformed Seminary - http://www.tnars.net
Soli Deo Gloria

I have no idea what the difference between Master of Divinity and the Master of Ministry is. To be quite honest I have never heard of the Master of Ministry. But in some Reformed circles the only real distinction between a preaching elder and an evangelist is that the evangelist is permitted and sent to go outside the physical jurisdiction of the regional synod and thus would be sent by one denomination/synod and put under watch by another. Many of us would see the work of pastor and evangelist one and the same and not as what the term has become since the Second Great Awakening (i.e. travelling preachers who hold revival meetings and can only preach 10 sermons over and over again). An Evangelist in my understanding of scripture is a pastor who has the additional burden of Church planting and doing missionary work. That's the role it was undertaken in my denomination (Église Réformée du Québec)

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J. P. Grigoletti II * Lay-man * Église Réformée du Québec
Québec, Québec Canada * Member: Église Reformée St. Marc
http://Grigoletti.blogspot.com - blog
<<There are three things necessary for thee to know, that thou, enjoying this comfort, mayest live and die happily: the first, how great your sins and miseries are; the second, how thou may be delivered from all thy sins and miseries; the third, how thou shall express thy gratitude to God for such deliverance.>>

Thanks, I will read it!

The Scriptures do not require that a minister, pastor, evangelist, or preacher have a seminary education. They must be called (given to the Church by the Lord). The educational requirements of a particular denomination are different. Let's be sure and not confuse the two.

__________________
We shall not adjust our Bible to the age; but before we have done with it, by God's grace, we shall adjust the age to the Bible. - Charles Haddon Spurgeon

Lawrence Underwood, Jr.
Pastor - Providence Family Fellowship / Mobile, Alabama
1644/46 LBC
My Blog - Imprimis

So, Lawrence, are you saying that being called to be an evangelist is a position given to someone by God through the church and that the call isn't education? When you read the church gov of the OPC that Chippy quoted is that how you interpret it?

Sister, with all respect the OPC documents are not Scripture. The OPC has chosen that particular method for its church leadership. If you are an OPC member then you would be bound to it by agreement. If you are not a member then it it has no bearing upon you at all.

Well, I am a member so I am bound to it. However, sometimes laymen don't read these documents with clarity and I was just wondering if you had a better grasp on what it meant. Thanks.

I will agree with you on that. All too often church members ignore the governmental documents of their particular denomination or congregation. They really shouldn't. Frankly, they shouldn't become members without some understanding of what they are attaching themselves to by covenant. I'll take a closer look at the OPC BoC later on and get back to you. Right now I need to get off the PB and prepare.

I'm not sure I see anything in the OPC FoG that equates "the call" to "education". In both the OPC and the PCA all would agree that an inward call to the ministry is God's to give and God's alone, and that those who are so called must be recognized as possessing the gifts of the office to which they are called, by the local church (and the regional body of presbyters, who ordain him). They must be, as the respective forms of government describe, knowledgeable in the Scriptures, of course - but neither body has explicit written rules that say that seminary education is required (though it's rare).

I also want to note on the OP - If one is seeking "to preach only" then I'm not sure what office one is seeking. Evangelists as ordained in presbyterian bodies do NOT "preach only". I'm also honestly not sure what "to preach only" means, really. Some clarification there would help.

__________________
Todd K. Pedlar
member, First Congregational Church, (CCCC) Cresco, IA
http://inprincipiodeus.solideogloria.com
http://puritanwisdom.blogspot.com

"As God did not at first choose you because you were high, He will not now forsake you because you are low."
John Flavel in Keeping the Heart



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I think a split off thread needs to be started about the rigthness or wrongness of the OPC seeing "Evangelist" as a present and existing office.

__________________
Pergamum


"If a commission by an earthly king is considered a honor, how can a commission by a Heavenly King be considered a sacrifice?"
-- David Livingstone

Then start one

BTW, you need to fix your signature. Click on 'signature requirements' at the bottom of my signature.

The Real Question I guess is not do you have an MDIV but can you preach? It does not matter what piece of paper you have hanging on the wall or what approval you might have from a seminary but are you called and gifted in the area of preaching? "And he gave the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the shepherds and teachers..." Ephesians 4:11.

So many are in the pulpit due to the fact that they have the credentials but many do not have the gift or ability thus are not fruitful.

God does not require a Seminary degree, man does. Though I am also pursing a degree and am more for it than against it, but just look at the history of Christianity and you will see that God used both learned and unlearned men to turn the world upside down. Peter was an unlearned fisherman, Paul a learned Theologian.

If God has called you and your peers and leaders have borne witness to that and you feel you do not need an MDiv then obey God and not man made church rules. But if you desire to preach in a denomination that requires an MDiv then you will probably have to acquire one.

That's my 2 cents

__________________
Steve
Sonship Ministries (Reformed)
Brooklyn, NY

__________________
Ameen (Ah-mean) Or "Meen" for short.
St.pete, Fl
Crossover Church
Student
Urban Missions
(Acts 20:24) But I do not account my life of any value nor as precious to myself, if only I may finish my course and the ministry that I received from the Lord Jesus, to testify to the gospel of the grace of God.

Sorry for the delay in response. I missed this last night.

Both are NAPARC, have similar standards, and a man seeking ordination in one might, at some point, end up in the other.

This is particularly true of church planting, as the NAPARC members have a formal agreement to not step on each other's toes in church planting efforts.

I like seminary degrees. I think a good biblical education before one pastors a flock is extremely helpful. Not to mention I see a big difference in ministers comparing credentials. Who generally speaking will do better? A PhD or a MDiver? I am not trying to belittle people who have less credentials just stating the more the education the more helpful it is.

__________________
Julio Perez
Visting Branch of Hope OPC hoping this will be my home church.....


“No…we are all priests. Your vocation and your contentment in your vocation should not be dependent upon your being in vocational ministry or in being a figure of public acclaim. If God wills that fine…if He does not do that, you ought to still do what he has granted you to do to the glory of God.”

-Martin Luther

In response to this, I simply must assert Ephesians 4:11-15 as a text dealing specifically to Evangelist being an office in church ministry. I do not believe ecclesiastically you can separate the evangelist from the body. This does not give me any more credibility, however, I have been open air preaching and witnessing for the better part of 3 years and have finally come to believe myself to be in need of church oversight. I am called to witness for Christ but I must be accountable to the body.

__________________
Michael P Doyle
Waukesha WI
Member of http://www.cornerstone-pca.com/
Attending http://www.lampseminary.org/

As for the biblical office of Evangelist, The Westminster Assembly's form of church government reads:

Of the Officers of the Church.

THE officers which Christ hath appointed for the edification of his church, and the perfecting of the saints, are, some extraordinary, as apostles, evangelists, and prophets, which are ceased.

Others ordinary and perpetual, as pastors, teachers, and other church-governors,* and deacons.
*they mean ruling elders.

See the full text at reformed.org

As far as the Divines' thinking, see Gillespie's study of the subject in his Miscellany Questions.
A treatise of miscellany questions ... - Google Book Search

__________________
Chris Coldwell, Lakewood Presbyterian Church (PCA), Dallas, Texas.
• Naphtali Press: Presbyterian & Reformed Books
• Westminster Letter Press
• The Confessional Presbyterian Journal
• The Blue Banner Archive

The Regulative Principle: The Scriptures are the “only infallible rule of faith and practice, no rite or ceremony ought to have a place in the public worship of God, which is not warranted in Scripture, either by direct precept or example, or by good and sufficient inference” (Samuel Miller).

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Lawrence you are right in saying that the OPC documents we are referring to here are not Scripture. But these OPC documents (secondary standards) are part of our denomination's constitution because we believe them to be faithfully representing that which is mandated by Scripture. In other words, the reason why church officers in the OPC are bound to these documents is not just because they have agreed to abide by them but because the body believes them to be representative of Scripture principles.

Another thing that I would like to point out to you is that the "particular method" that the OPC has chosen for its church leadership is the same as what you have said. You said, "They must be called (given to the Church by the Lord)." This is what the OPC FoG says concerning Evangelists:

In addition, when it comes to educational requirements, I've been told that the OPC does ordain men who do not possess the degrees that one would usually expect of a man aspiring for ministry (the least is a Bachelor's degree) by way of exception.

Educational requirements differ widely among Christian groups. In the last few decades, however, there has been a general tendency for official denominations to require the M.Div. of their candidates for ordination and pastoral ministry AND to permit exceptions for a variety of "exceptional" reasons.

I have been chair (for roughly half of my 28 years serving on the committee) on the standing ordination and credentials committee of my denom (first in the ABC and then of the successor body here in the southwest). Looking at nearly 500 candidates for ordination during that time, I am not so sure that one can draw much of a correlation between education and pastoral effectiveness. Those who select a namby-pamby seminary actually come out demonstrably worse for the experience and seemingly more incompetent than when they matriculated! I have seen effective leaders of ministries within a church become ineffective pastors because of seminary.

Don't presume that more education leads to greater effectiveness. It simply denotes one who completed more years in school. At some point, a surplus of education may point to a person afraid of engaging the real world or with limited pastoral skills. Give me a pastor any day called of God, strong in the word, theologically astute, orthodox, and burning with zeal for the cause of Christ lacking a M.Div. rather than a PhD lacking in these former qualities.

In some of your denominations, you have a tradition of effective pastors entering the ranks of professors. What a blessing! May your tribe increase. They know both the world of the academy and that of the church. I am familiar with too many seminaries where the profs either never had significant pastoral experience or were never any good at it, hence their retreat to the academy. Obtaining a PhD under such educational leadership only makes one like the prof and basically useless for the church.

For aspiring PB future seminarians, INVESTIGATE the product of the school in terms of its alums. Do you want to be a professor or a pastor? If a pastor, does this school have a track record of producing effective ministers? For instance, leaving theology out of the equation, Dallas Seminary has a long tradition of preparing effective communicators who know the Bible (including the languages). If a dispensationalist wanted to become a philosophy prof, however, he would be better off at Biola (same theology but one of the VERY best pre-PhD philosophy programs in the country).

If I were 21-22 and a newly minted B.A. heading off to seminary, my short list of Presbyterian schools would include WTS, WSCal, GPTS, PRTS and probably Covenant or RTS. If I wanted a Baptist school, it would be pretty much limited to SBTS. My no-no list? ANY of the seminaries affiliated with a mainline denomination or ANY school trying to be PC, "diverse," "emergent," or calling itself "evangelical" without holding to inerrancy.

I would not argue that inerrancy is the most important Christian doctrine. However, in selecting a school, it is the virtual "canary in the mine" test of whether you can work safely in this environment. There are inerrancy-affirming schools that are not much good. However, don't go to ANY seminary for pastoral training that denies it (either functionally or practically). Like the canary (not the most important animal but a VERY good test of good/bad air in a mine), inerrancy is a petty good litmus test for whether the seminary operates in safe air or not. That, by the way, would exclude my alma mater from consideration for seminary!

__________________
Dennis E. McFadden, Ex Mainline Baptist (in Remission)
Atherton Baptist Homes, CEO
First Baptist Church of Alhambra, Member, Transformation Ministries (CA)

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Thank you Dennis. Very well put.
One dear friend of mine advised me to find a seminary that would teach me how to think, rather than what to think. I am confident that I received such an education. But, if local pastors had the right vision, I could have received a similar education tempered more fully by faithfulness in the local church, thus been better prepared for ministry.
Unless tempered by practical ministry experience throughout, seminaries generally engender pride and can often ruin a man for ministry.

__________________
For the Glory of our King,
Joe Johnson
Slave of Christ, husband, father, Preacherboy at Cornerstone Community Church, Escanaba, MI. and TMS graduate. Personal website - SoundLife.org

I do not know, and I do not say, that a person cannot believe in Revelation and in evolution, too, for a man may believe that which is infinitely wise and also that which is only asinine. ~ CHS

That's the very same advice I would give to college students. My wife used to be an instructor at a University and she would often complain to me about how students often expect to be spoon fed. IMO, a lot of these kids probably went to public schools where they were taught what to think and not how to think.

Chippy,

I'm good with "how to think" as long as the environment is not infected with studied pluralism. The typical cafeteria seminary offers any number of different ideologies, endorsing none, and so communicating that all ideas are equal in value. Hence, my inerrancy "canary in the mine" test. If you study under people who do not have some confessional boundaries, the noetic effects of the fall will lead their (and your) flesh to pernicious and dangerous doctrinal directions that will corrupt the church.

Inerrancy is such an offensive doctrine in the academy, that few hold it by mere tradition or out of accident of training. So, whether the inerrantist is a Dispensationalist (Masters, Talbot, Dallas), Arminian (Asbury), or Reformed (WTS, WSCal, PRTS, GPTS, Covenant), inerrancy will tend to be a self-limiting governor on on the degree of foolishness he can actively promulgate.

Brethren, I see seminary grads coming out that haven't a CLUE where the lines are with regard to truth. Granted, the Reformed schools I recommended in my earlier post would not be afflicted with this particular problem. However, because I attended a school that had just dropped its inerrancy stand a few years prior to my arrival, I can testify as an eyewitness to the corrupt and corrupting impact of this upon the corporate culture of the place. The current prez is a "Calvinist" with a M.Div. from Western Theological Seminary 17 years teaching at Calvin. But, YIKES!!!, the place will allow you to believe just about anything and prides itself on its broadmindedness:

Teach them to think, don't tell them what to think? Sure. But, don't teach them that truth is in the eye of the beholder and that good ideas and bad ideas are of the same intrinsic value! "Christian camaraderie" is not a strong enough central core. It is certainly not an adequate substitute for confessional boundaries.

Don't you worry too much about me. Lord willing, I will be going to PRTS (one of the seminaries you highly recommend) this Fall for my M. Div.

BTW, I'm a Presuppositionalist (Van Tillian) and what that means is that, for me, teaching students how to think would be to basically first teach them that true knowledge presupposes God.