I'm looking for a quote or something that would point to the fact that if there was just good preaching, and people listening to the preaching, there would be no need for 'counseling.'

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Rev. Andrew J. Barnes
Husband of Dena
Father of Oliver
Master of Bruce
Pastor of Tchula Presbyterian Church

What can I say, I like blogs!

First, why are you so certain that this is a fact?

Second, a good quote does not make it any more true.

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Daniel
PCA
Memphis, TN

I've never heard such a quote, but it sounds like a terrible conclusion. I don't see how an hour or two per week of exhortation to a general audience can possibly comprehensively address the situations and sins of everyone in the congregation. To reduce the teaching element of the church to a few set times per week is unhealthy.

The disciples listened to Jesus preach to the crowds all the time, yet they still needed his personal guidance and correction. Sometimes he even had to deal with them individually (James and John; Peter). Was that due to a lack of good preaching? Now, I do agree with the sentiment of the quote in a more limited fashion. Constant exposure to good teaching will benefit every Christian soul.

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Charlie Johnson
Downtown Presbyterian Church (PCA)
Greenville Presbyterian Theological Seminary, student

Just looking for a quote, not an argument. Thanks.

Do you have Martyn Lloyd-Jones' Preaching & Preachers? If so, have a look at at pp. 17; 36-40. It is a lot to quote, so I won't type it out unless you don't have the book. There are a few gems in there anyway.

Edit: Or you could have a look at the preview on Google Books. Just enter 'counselling' in the search bar on the top right, and you should get the relevant material.

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Rob S.
New Creation RPC
Kitchener, ON

I have it thanks. That is exactly what I was looking for, I just forgot who had said it.

I like that book, but I wish it had an index. Not sure what they were thinking there when they printed it without one. I have added my own at the back.

Romans922;

I don't know of a such quote..but I do know Scripture does speak of seeking counsel..the Counseling that comes from God's word, can be done one on one (mentoring/counseling/discipleship), as well as through the Preaching of the Word..and sometimes that one on one can be more effective for someone struggling with sin, or depression, or other such things..


Psa 1:1 Blessed [is] the man that walketh not in the counsel of the ungodly, nor standeth in the way of sinners, nor sitteth in the seat of the scornful.

Psa 33:10 The LORD bringeth the counsel of the heathen to nought: he maketh the devices of the people of none effect.

Psa 33:11 The counsel of the LORD standeth for ever, the thoughts of his heart to all generations.

Psa 64:2 Hide me from the secret counsel of the wicked; from the insurrection of the workers of iniquity:

Pro 1:25 But ye have set at nought all my counsel, and would none of my reproof:

Pro 1:30 They would none of my counsel: they despised all my reproof.

Pro 11:14 Where no counsel [is], the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors [there is] safety.

Pro 12:15 The way of a fool [is] right in his own eyes: but he that hearkeneth unto counsel [is] wise.

Pro 15:22 Without counsel purposes are disappointed: but in the multitude of counsellors they are established.

Pro 19:20 Hear counsel, and receive instruction, that thou mayest be wise in thy latter end.


Pro 19:21 [There are] many devices in a man's heart; nevertheless the counsel of the LORD, that shall stand.

Pro 8:14 Counsel [is] mine, and sound wisdom: I [am] understanding; I have strength.

Pro 20:5 Counsel in the heart of man [is like] deep water; but a man of understanding will draw it out.

Pro 27:9 Ointment and perfume rejoice the heart: so [doth] the sweetness of a man's friend by hearty counsel.

Isa 30:1 Woe to the rebellious children, saith the LORD, that take counsel, but not of me; and that cover with a covering, but not of my spirit, that they may add sin to sin:

Jer 23:22 But if they had stood in my counsel, and had caused my people to hear my words, then they should have turned them from their evil way, and from the evil of their doings.

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Bobbi Clark
Covenant Member
Pinewood Pres. (PCA) Middleburg

When I kept Silent, My bones wasted away through my groaning all day long. Psalm 32:3

On page 37 he does clarify that he doesn't think there is no room for "personal work" (counseling), but that preaching should be primary, and would solve many issues that are now solved through counseling.

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Larry Bray
Elder - Reformed Presbyterian Church of Boothwyn, PCA
Boothwyn, PA - http://www.rpcb.org/
Free Online Reformed Seminary - http://www.tnars.net
-----------------------------------------------------
Christian ritual costs nothing and is worth nothing. True Christian religion costs all that we have and is worth everything.

Yep. But it still seems that there is no need for "counselors" just pastors, at least if the Church was doing what it is supposed to.

Andrew -

Here's a quote for you.

"I used to agree with Martin Llyod-Jones' position on counseling being virtually unncessary if good preaching is regularly and consistently occuring. But now I see that he, in this area, was a quack. Yes, a quack. I shudder to think of the many ills and problems that exist in our day as a consequence of his many congregants exposure to his position though it was years ago. How many broken lives and families have come from not having a pastor who would take the time to sit and open the Word of God and deal with sin by applying both the Law and the Gospel to their ailments? Alas! I confess that I formerly agreed with him because secretly 1) I didn't have a clue as to how to effectively apply the word of God in one-on-one counseling situations and as such I was actually a little scared by those counseling situations, and 2) I had an over-inflated view of my ability to communicate God's Word for the pulpit. However, now I've come to realize that preaching from the pulpit on Sunday morning is one form of teaching and expositing the Word of God... and opening the Word of God to explain it and apply it in the counseling session is another form of teaching the Word of God. As a result, I think that my ministry has become much more holistic and well-rounded."

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Ben
Chaplain, US Army
Ft. Riley, KS
TE Ohio Valley Presbytery, PCA

I used to think there was no need for counseling, but not any more. I don't know how I would have survived the last year without the wise counsel of my pastor, women in the church and elders. There is no way that just the preaching from the pulpit could have helped me right when I needed it.

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J Baldwin
Keowee Presbyterian Church, PCA
Pickens, SC
“You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind, and your neighbor as yourself.” Luke 10:27

Check Out My Blog: http://reflectjoy.blogspot.com/

Romans922;

So if you have a couple come to you with martial problems you would just tell them 'listen to your preaching?" Or would you just pray for them and send them away?

I have found from many a friends whose marriages are struggling, that when they go to their pastors, that is ALL the counsel they get, they only offer to pray for them and tell them come to church..but that is NOT helping these marriages.

It is not teaching them how to apply God's word to their situation, however, if a Christian sits down with them one on one, they can point to God's word, and teach them how it applies to their situation, and it gives them someone they are accountable to, when they are struggling to know God is near. It also brings comfort knowing someone is there who is willing to walk with them through the situation..

I'd agree that if the church was doing what it is supposed to we'd have no need for counselors - particularly if by "counselor" you refer to a distinct vocation. We need pastors who are willing to lovingly tend their flock... and this means giving one-on-one biblical instruction/guidance/counsel to those in need of it in times of acute crisis. If all a pastor does is hide in his study all week and then appear behind the pulpit to deliver a sermon, and then disappear back into his study... he is no pastor. Even if his church is amenable to this arangement.

-----Added 4/6/2009 at 11:39:16 EST-----

Allow me to offer my own alternative to the thread title: Your title implies that the presence of counseling demonstrates that something other than "good" preaching is occuring.

I'd suggest that good preaching will prick consciences which will in turn result in more counseling requests to the pastor from his congregation.

Which, in Lloyd-Jones defense, is something which he also stated in his lecture.

I can only hope that he made exceptions to his "sit through 6 months of sermons and then I'll give you ONE HOUR of one-on-one counseling time" policy in the case of emergencies...

"Oh, I am so sorry to hear about the loss of your young child. Now if you'll kindly listen to my sermons for the next six months, I'll be happy to meet with you concerning your grief."

I can only hope that never happened!!!

Have you ever read his biography by Iain Murray? He most definitely did make time for people to come and see him for counsel.

I think the comments I have read miss a critical element of this discussion. There are two schools of thought about this issue. First, I find it hard to believe that whoever called Dr. LLoyd-Jones a quack on this subject has actually read Dr. LLoyd-Jones on the subject. Disagree if you like, but he is hardly the only person ever to hold the view and it does sound like a caricature of his view. Quack seems off the mark.

It is in LLoyd-Jones’ defense of good preaching that he makes the following comment: “…Another whole section in this connection has been the increasing emphasis upon ‘personal work,’ as it is called, or ‘counselling’ … as preaching goes down personal counselling goes up. (Preaching and Preachers, p. 17). This does not sound to me like an either/or dichotomy as he has been charged with in this thread. LLoyd-Jones is simply articulating one school of thought on the subject. I have never read that he would reject the whole idea of counseling as a part of the Pastor’s work. If you read the biography by Iain Murray, I think you will see he did do counseling. Second, there is a school of thought that says good, close, applicatory, and pointed preaching will actually increase one’s counseling load. There are not a few who hold such a view. It is my persuasion that there are certain historical circumstances where this is particularly true, but in our present historical context it is not what generally occurs. What does seem to be occurring, and it is what needs addressing, is the diminishing of preaching and its replacement with counseling. While maybe articulated in a poor manner (and I will allow Andrew to speak for himself) I do not think the total eradication of counseling is what is being argued for. I am of the school that good, close, applicatory, and pointed preaching will in our present historical context decrease our counseling load, but I do understand that this is a debatable point. Of course, one has to ask if this kind of preaching is being done in most of our churches. This is the point, it is not being done. I personally would like to know if the counseling load increased in churches where this kind of preaching is done.

Finally, David Powlison once in class gave a suggested reading concerning the history of the rise of the profession field of counseling that would be helpful. The work is titled The System of Professions (1988) by Andrew Abbot. It is chapter 10 titled “The Construction of the Personal Problem Jurisdiction”.

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Michael J. Butterfield, M.Div. RTS Jackson, MS
Presently living in Pickens, MS
Attend Pickens and Tchula, MS PCA Churches

No man can know sin without knowing the law: and herein appears to me one of the prevailing defects of modern preaching: I mean the neglect of holding up this perfect mirror, in which the sinner shall see reflected his own moral image. (John Angell James)

I said it. And I've read him on the subject. And I do think his view - his stated practice of requiring months of sermon attendance for 1 hour of face time - is grossly negligent as a pastor. He may not be the only one to have that position, but he's certainly the most famous. And I've seen more than a few lazy pastors justify their laziness in this regard by appealling to the example of Lloyd-Jones.

There can be situations where a person needs counseling for X, but his pastor is not currently preaching about X. The pastor could be currently preaching about something else. The pastor could be doing some good preaching, but what he is currently preaching on might not be what a particular person needs counseling for right now.

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Curt Hayashida
member, Community Bible Church (Non-denominational)
Vallejo, CA

The pastor alone may not even be able to do all of the counseling necessary for a large congregation. Even if there is an asst pastor, and esp if the congregation is one in transition.

This is why God ordained elders who may handle more of the administration but should also be examples and able to teach.

It may be helpful to define Counseling as you intend to use it.

If you mean a lazy minister who refuses to counsel or does not have elders able to and sends one off to a worldly counselor or psychologist or even a so called christian counselor who does not understand the D of G or proper hermeneutics, then yes this would be wrong.

But there are good counselors, and the elders and older people in the church should be able to offer sound counsel to many situations that may never get specifically addressed in the preaching.

But given the best preaching and hearing and massive work of the Spirit, a person may still benefit from wise counsel on how to make the best decision on what job to take, how many children to have given his wages, whether to watch any TV or not and how to best raise and discipline his children, which schools to sen them too, and all kinds of subjects that may not specifically addressed and in fact maybe should not be as they are matters of conscience.

So if you would say there should be no need of emotional or psychological or some specific type of counsel it may be better.

Also consider what you speak of is hypothetical because we will always have weak and new converts and false professors in the covenant membership.

But we should seek counsel from more experienced people on what schools are good to go to, which seminary today, where to find work, what modesty looks like in our community, etc.

These are all reasons to counsel with people in your congregation or parents or even a professional if you can find one worth going to.

I would strongly suggest in most matters a person talk with experienced godly older people God has providentially put in their congregation before going to a govt. certified professional educated with worldly concepts they would have to overcome if they did know scripture well.

And take counsel from recommended good books, and for a stress on preaching as the main means you could look through Jay Adams works, the main counsel he gives is, repent and get converted.
And I see a lot of value in his style of counsel.

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DonP

Ben, what have you read by/about Lloyd-Jones on the matter? I've downed a pretty decent number of volumes from the man, and your picture doesn't quite fit. At Sandfields, for instance, when a family approached him asking if declaring bankruptcy would cause them trouble within the church, he asked them why go bankrupt, got into the details of their business, and came up with a plan that saved the business without entering into bankruptcy. Not exactly lazy or uninvolved.

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Ruben
Moderator
F.P.C.I.
Indiana

Vanities and disguises have covered us, and thereby we are naked; licenciousness hath inflam'd us, and thereby we are frozen; voluptuousness hath fed us, and thereby we are sterved, the fancies and traditions of men have taught and instructed us, and thereby we are ignorant.
John Donne

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Calvinistas Conversando
Teología en Mexico
The Howling Wilderness

True, someone who carefully attends to solid preaching, may best be able to apply God's word to life. But what about that overwhelming event that overtakes even a mature believer? What if someone is dealing with a situation where the scriptures are not clear? I have been privileged to sit under some outstanding preaching, but there have been times where I've been greatly blessed to receive counsel that more pointedly directs the light of God's word into a situation I'm facing in my own life.

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JWithnell
Member Bethel OPC
Virginia
http://learningyesican.blogspot.com/