In another thread:
I wonder that too. The few times I've sung from the Psalter, I enjoyed it very much. I was thinking, though, that if you asked your typical Joe/Josephine blow in your average church what the Psalter was, you'd probably see ?? in their eyes. Psalter? What's that? Such a great resource seems to be so unknown?

How did singing of Psalms ever get so 'pushed out' of the majority of today's churches? Did you ever wonder? Did the introduction of hymns have such a big impact on people that they wanted to leave behind the songs in the Psalter?

__________________
B.Howes
Framingham, MA

I would think that the conversation would go like this...

"Where is the Psalter?"
"Right next to the Pepperer."

__________________
Larry Bray
Elder - Reformed Presbyterian Church of Boothwyn, PCA
Boothwyn, PA - http://www.rpcb.org/
Free Online Reformed Seminary - http://www.tnars.net
-----------------------------------------------------
Christian ritual costs nothing and is worth nothing. True Christian religion costs all that we have and is worth everything.

good one!

I did a little googling, looking for info about the Psalter vs Hymn singing in churches historically. Came across this list of Psalters. How many of those have YOU heard of?

Significant Psalters
Illuminated manuscripts

Cathach of St. Columba, early 7th century
Canterbury Psalter, 1147CE
Salaberga Psalter
Vespasian Psalter, 2nd quarter of the 8th century
Irish Bog Psalter
Psalter of Lothaire
Montpellier Psalter
Chludov Psalter, 3rd quarter of the 9th century
Stuttgart Psalter
Utrecht Psalter, 9th century
Southampton Psalter
Gertrude Psalter, late 10th century with mid-11th century illuminations
Stavelot Psalter
Bosworth Psalter
Aethelstan Psalter
Harley Psalter
Ramsey Psalter
Codex Vossanius
Paris Psalter, 10th century
Heidelberg Psalter
Vatopedi Psalter
St. Albans Psalter
Theodore Psalter
Eadui Psalter
Tiberias Psalter
Vitellius Psalter
Winchester Psalter
Melisende Psalter, circa 1135
Shaftesbury Psalter
Westminster Psalter
Camaldoli Psalter
Gough Psalter
London Psalter
Psalter of Lambert de Bègue
Grandisson Psalter
Huth Psalter
Oscott Psalter
Alphonso Psalter
Rutland Psalter
Felbrigge Psalter
Psalter of Robert de Lindesey
Ramsey Psalter
Psalter of St. Louis
Luttrell Psalter
Gorleston Psalter
Macclesfield Psalter
De Lisle Psalter
Queen Mary Psalter
St. Omer Psalter
Psalter of Henry VIII
Tomich Psalter
Psalter of Bonne de Luxembourg
Tickhill Psalter
Ormesby Psalter
Psalter of Jean, Duc de Berry
Vienna Bohun Psalter
Kiev Psalter of 1397
Burnet Psalter
Sofia Psalter
St. John's Bible- Psalms, 2007

Printed Psalters
Geneva Psalter, 1562
Davids' Psalter, 1579
Scottish Psalter,1635 and 1650
Bay Psalm Book, 1640
Grail, The Psalms, 1963, 1993
ICEL Psalter, 1995

I found a brief history of the introduction of hymns here.

One of the things they said was:

It was the great Isaac Watts (1674 – 1748) who began the reform of congregational singing in England. He wrote many fine hymns - Joy to the World and O God our help in ages past are examples - and started from the principle that texts should express the religious feelings of the people. This was a total turnaround from the previously-held view that they should be scripturally based!

Did Isaac Watts actually purpose intend for his sermons to not be scripturally based, or is this somebody's interpretation of his intent?

the psalms left completely when protestants fliped to the "psalms, Hymns, Spiritual songs" verse and instead of seeking to understand hymns from a Scripture point of view "what does scripture call a hymn" to "what does the world call a hymn"

I remember this one. There were a couple of threads about it:

http://www.puritanboard.com/f38/medi...ish-bog-14919/
1000 year old Irish Psalter discovered


Heard of this one.

I came across this one in my Matthew Poole studies.

Yes.

Yes.

Yes.

Another one not listed of some historical interest in the King James Psalter.

King James Psalms

There is also the Scottish Prose Psalter.

__________________
Andrew

Was that silly of me or what, thinking I'd be able to stump 'em!

Luttrell psalter photos

theodore psalter 1066

Kind of going back to the original point of the thread, what did happen to Psalm singing after the introduction of hymns and how did they come to dominate the music portion of worship?

__________________
Benjamin P. Glaser, M. Div, Licentiate, Associate Reformed Presbyterian Church
Member Fairmount ARP Church
Pittsburgh, PA

Deo Vindice

IMO, I would say it was that people just do not understand them as Christians of old did. I get asked the question, "How can we sing them when they came before Christ?" When people understand that the Psalms are all about Christ their attitude changes.

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Richard
CofE
UK

The Psalms are more appropriate for NT praise than OT, as they were not completed until near the end of the former dispensation.

__________________
Daniel Ritchie
Saintfield, Northern Ireland - Queen's University, Belfast:History/Politics
Member of Dromara Reformed Presbyterian Church of Ireland (Covenanter)

Interesting photos. Gives excellent historical snapshot.

The guy on the left says, "I don't think we should ONLY sing Psalms in church. I think we should sing hymns too".

The guy on the right responds, "YOU WANNA WHAT!!??!!..."

Not at all, Bob. You listed many that were new to me and I will look forward to acquainting myself with them as much as I can.

And your original question is well worth considering. Why has the singing of Psalms fallen out of favor, especially in Protestant churches, even in Reformed churches?

I think that hymns tend to rush in to fill a perceived vacuum resulting from the alleged insufficiency of the Psalter in Christian worship. Isaac Watts certainly lead the way by arguing that some Psalms were unfit for Christian worship, and that therefore new uninspired hymns were needed to fill the void. When that dike was opened, the floods rushed in. It is human nature to desire to introduce innovations into God's worship. There is no new thing under the sun. I was reading two essays on the status and outlook of Psalmody published in 1907 and it was interesting to see how they viewed the situation back then. I think that Dietrich Bonhoeffer was so right when he said, "Wherever the Psalter is abandoned, an incomparable treasure vanishes from the Christian church. With its recovery will come unexpected power" (Psalms, The Prayer Book of the Bible, p. 26).

Songs for Christians: using the whole Psalter. (Cover Story) - The Christian Century | Encyclopedia.com
http://www.arpnovascotia.com/covenant/why_psalms.htm
Reformed Worship | We Used to Sing Only Psalms -- What Happened?

Oh how I wish that were true!

It has been our experience when this is brought up, they offer the next excuse, "The name of Jesus isn't mentioned in the Psalms." Obviously they mean "Jesus by name"; nevertheless they persist in that excuse.

__________________
~Jay~
Husband of ENS, father of J II. | Indian Trail, NC
disabled - cancer
Communicant Member, Precentor | Presbyterian Reformed Church of Charlotte, NC | Presbyterian Reformed Church

zzzzzz ...

This is only a guess at the answer but perhaps a lack of literacy in churches caused a decline in psalters as Watts' tunes are more prone to rhyme thereby being more memorable lending to people who do not read.
In my country, a survey showed that 75% of our island inhabitants were illiterate in 1930.

Question: Does anyone know of a Psalter in the Spanish language?
We sing some psalms in spanish but we don't have an organized book with only psalms to sing in the form of a hymnal. But our hymnal contains some psalms.

I would much like to sing psalms also but I would not like to remove all of hymn singing though because of (similarly as one of the above posts), the verse--Psalms Hymns and Spiritual Songs. Spiritual Songs as well as Hymns should be permitted also imo.

__________________
Frank
member/Reformed Baptist Church, NJ
1689 BCF
Technician in NewYork
Titus 2:13
...looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus...

'

__________________
Christopher Reeder
Husband to Kara, Father to Abigail (8), Caleb (7), Grace (5 1/2), Zoë (4), Elijah (2), Hannah (1), and Mary (due February 2010)

Member: Pilgrim Presbyterian Church (OPC), Raleigh, NC

I vividly remember a moment back when I was still an active member in the Willow Creek Model Seeker Sensitive Church, and while I was just discovering the Doctrines of Grace. I was on a mission to find or make (I wasn't reformed yet) a church that was true to the scriptures and was just like the church in the apostolic times. I was in church ignoring the service as much as possible and thinking to myself, "If the Psalms were originally written to be sung why does the church not sing them today?" I had no idea what a "Psalter" was nor that churches still sang Psalms. I thought I had some new revolutionary idea (). So then I started searching online and voilà! Another confirmation that the reformed churches were the true churches according to God's word.

Another quick account: When I finally left the seeker church and became a member at a PCA church, I was disappointed that the church did not use any Psalter nor did it sing Psalms (they didn't even use the Trinity Hymnal). I approached the session about being an inclusive Psalmody church and gave them the PCA position paper on the matter as a defense for the Psalter in worship. the head of the session responded that this was interesting he never heard of singing Psalms in church before (). Needless to say the motion never made it to vote. An explanation was given, they patted my head and told me to run off little fellow.

I am not saying they suddently become EP but they do see that psalms are suitable to be sung.

The Psalter as it now stands was completed very late but a number of the psalms are pretty early.

Growing up in a Wesleyan background and being converted in an indy fundy baptist church I never heard the Psalms sung. I never knew there was such a thing. About a year ago I bought some of the Psalms being sung by a choir from Geneva college. I listen to it all the time. When I heard Jason Coghill sing 147 I thought I'd cry for sure.

__________________
Psa 55:16 As for me, I will call upon God; and the LORD shall save me.
Psa 55:17 Evening, and morning, and at noon, will I pray, and cry aloud: and he shall hear my voice.
James Farley
Husband of Melissa and father of Ann.
Members of Redeemer Church ARP, Blacksburg Va.
http://www.redeemerblacksburg.org/

Hi, not sure you understood what I inferred concerning spiritual songs. I meant by it songs that are not verbatum biblical, but that are brought out by a biblical spiritual heart of the gospel such as were written by Watts, Crosby and others.

I meant the Psalter as a whole unit.

"Suitable to be sung" - that's the phrase I was looking for. Thanks.

I agree that not having the name (specifically) of Jesus in the Psalms should not be a reason to reject singing them altogether. I don't think the name of Jesus is mentioned in each and every hymn that's sung either (correct me if I'm wrong).

I view singing in church as a way of offering up praise to God, of in a sense praying to God via music. From the EP point of view, a hymn that uses the name of Jesus and praises Him for what He's done, or for who He is, and is biblically substantive, is that not suitable to be sung as worship?

hahaha

You are right, I do not understand what you inferred concerning spiritual songs. Apologies

I have also wondered, why is it that Psalm singing is mainly a Presbyterian thing? What would singing Psalms have to do with being Credo or Paedo Baptist or church government?

I do not have a citation, but I was told that Al Martin once made the remark that if he was convinced of Paedo Baptism he would also embrace Exclusive Psalmody.

(I will ask my friend for a reference)

There are a number of issues here that I would suggest you think about: the key one is: Does Scripture teach that singing is "praying to God via music"?

Singing is a specific element of worship and as such is regulated in accordance with its type. To singing in a way pleasing to God one must sing a psalm.

It isn't.

What does scripture teach that singing is?

Maybe "praying to God via music" isn't the best way to describe it, but you know (?) what I mean. Its directed towards God, we're singing to God, and its one way to praise God.

From the EP point of view, a Psalm will always excel the best non-canonical song that could possibly be composed. Christ came to fulfil what was written of him in the Psalms (as well as the Law and the Prophets). In the Psalms we praise our God, and since God is praised, Christ is praised because he is God.

So, a hymn that uses the name of Jesus and praises Him for what He's done, or for who He is, and is biblically substantive, is not suitable to be sung as worship?

Right. Not commanded, therefore not suitable. That is the response of this canonical Psalmodist.

Thanks, Jay, for your response. Just wanted to make sure I was clear where you stood.

I mean in comparison to Baptists and Presbyterians. Although there are some Psalm singing Baptist churches the majority are Hymn focused. EP is more a Reformed Presbyterian issue and not a Baptists one. I am not sure why that is the case.

Probably because Presbyterians are Confessional (and EP is confessional) whilst Baptists tend not to be Confessional and even when they are, their confessions do not mandate EP.

FWIW, I came across this site recently:

Luttrell Psalter Film

This is not technically related to the O.P., but the most poignant case for exclusive psalmody that I've ever encountered can be found here: PRC Psalm CD's.

Andrew Myers was gracious enough to send me both c.d.'s almost a year ago (I believe it will be one year in August). At that point I could say that I had already felt the intellectual pull of the E.P. arguments, and at the very least realized that I needed to respect the case that was made. After hearing the c.d.'s, at the risk of being a little hyperbolic, I felt a bit like the emissaries of Vladimir after having visited the Hagia Sophia, I "knew not whether I was in heaven or on earth. For on earth there is no such splendour or such beauty, and I am at a loss how to describe it. I know only that God dwells there among men, and their service is fairer than the ceremonies of other nations. For I cannot forget that beauty. Every man, after tasting something sweet, is afterward unwilling to accept that which is bitter, and therefore I cannot dwell longer here."

Granted, that's not an intellectual or Biblical argument, and it isn't intended to be so. I still need to study the issue much more before I can say with any degree of meaningful certainty and studiousness that I am fully E.P. But I am practically so right now, and sometimes thirst for such congregational worship.

In retrospect it is utterly baffling and befuddling to me, literally, that I could have went my whole life and never heard a Psalm sung. I grew up in Nazarene churches, but visited churches of many denominations in my early years as a Christian. At most, every now and then, I'd hear a hymn or praise song with one line of a Psalm as a refrain or something.

This might sound overly dramatic, but sometimes I just get a headache and think, "What is it about the Psalms that make people hate singing them?" Sometimes I get the impression even in some Presbyterian churches that if they do have to use a Psalm, it's much better to use a very loose paraphrase (again, very loose), and not something from one of the Psalters. It's almost like there's an antipathy against actually just singing a Psalm, as if it would be an experience of excruciating pain, like putting a cat into a bathtub.

It just very much strikes me that it seems to be "EP" or "no Psalms at all" in most churches; and in Presbyterian churches that aren't EP, I'd guess (there's no way I could no; none of us could, I suppose) that in many it's "one Psalm per service, and probably a very loose paraphrase).

Anyhow. I would encourage everyone that hasn't heard really good Psalm singing to purchase those c.d.'s.

I'm not affiliated with them in any way, so this isn't an infomercial.

__________________
Joshua
Riverview PCA
Charleston, WV

"Keep me as the apple of the eye, hide me under the shadow of thy wings."
- Psalm 17:8

Frank, unfortunately there is no complete Psalter in Spanish. A gentleman in Spain has completed a metrical version of the Psalms which correspond to the tunes in the Geneva Psalter; however, this was done as a private devotional exercise. I put him in touch with a Reformed Spanish publishing company, but I haven't heard that anything has come of it (and the publishing company has since fallen on very hard times).

I would be absolutely thrilled to see a complete Psalter published and spread around the Spanish-speaking world.

There is a Spanish hymnal which contains quite a number of Psalms. Some Psalms are sung to Mexican folk tunes, but this can involve a great deal of repetition and singing only a very small catchet of a Psalm.

__________________
Ruben
Moderator
F.P.C.I.
Indiana

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