Most folks are swayed into Presbyterianism by the unity of the covenant argument (which IS a good argument).

If I ever become a presby, it will be over this issue: Connectionalism.




In many calvy baptist churches there is such a stress on the local church, that ministries that cross paths with other churches are sometimes frowned upon.


Here is a list of some of my recent activities which some say would put me at odds with a baptistic ecclesiology:

--I am working overseas doing missions work with a solid national denomination, and this has disturbed a few of my baptist friends because I am, by virtue of planting churches and mentoring local evangelists in the territory of the X denomination I am thereby forsaking my principle of independancy (because I am blessing this denomination).

--I am all for a cooperation in efforts such as evangelism and publishing, and I have contributed data to the Joshua Project, an evangelical group that gathers data on the world's unreached people.

--I preach for whoever will have me and have preached for charismatics and "Full Gospel" folks and am always looking for entires into these groups to help teach them.


--I am doing missions with a missionary organization and therefore, I am not sent out directly by a local church without any outside help. I am sent out by my local church, but I am sent through an organization so that visa, paperwork, taxes, insurance can be processed, things impossible to do at the local church level. My organization speaks of my home church sending me out and asserts that they only help the local church send out the missionary, but this assistance is still too much for a few cavly baptist men and they keep reminding me that the local church has everything needed in it already to do missions and needs no experts.




Can one belive in independancy and still be very cooperative and "connectional?

I see the Church Universal as a global body and yet many calvy baptists seem infected with the taint of Landmarkism and exclusively see church as a local body. You can't join an invisible church, so they say.



Do ALL ministries have to be directly answerable to one local church? Do all missions efforts have to produce a local, independant church to be valid? Is their a place fo parachuches and missionary soceities in broader works of evangelism and publishing? Am I inconsistent to be an independant baptist and see strive for connectionalism?

See also this thread: Can a missionary work with national denominations while on the field

__________________
Pergamum


"If a commission by an earthly king is considered a honor, how can a commission by a Heavenly King be considered a sacrifice?"
-- David Livingstone

Not necessarily. There are Reformed Baptists who believe in the propriety of associations of local churches which are in essence a form of connectionalism albeit a less structured one. There is a small book written by various Reformed Baptist pastors which discusses this issue. I haven't had the time to read it however. The name of the book is Denominations or Associations? Essays on Reformed Baptist Associations.

-----Added 6/16/2009 at 12:06:24 EST-----

Another good book on the subject is Dr. James Renihan's

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Albert, The Republic of the Philippines
Pasig United Covenant Reformed Church (a Reformed church plant)
United Covenant Reformed Churches in the Philippines (UCRCP)
Three Forms of Unity and Westminster Confession of Faith

Psalm 27:1a (AV) The LORD is my light and my salvation; whom shall I fear?
“Perseverance is the badge of true saints. The Christian life is not a beginning only in the ways of God, but also a continuance in the same as long as life lasts.” -

I saw a similar problem with my home church. We had no problem fellowshiping with 1 other church in the area, but any one else was basically off limits. In all honesty it was mostly done through the youth group because the other church had a High School run by the church. I went to a public high school so I was basically never fully involved in the church because I was left out of the social circle that had formed.

-----Added 6/16/2009 at 12:12:39 EST-----

Actually, I grew up with the (infamous) idea that Baptist meant you were saved and if you were anything else you may be saved but were in a very small minority of your denomination. Since I have left I have seen the error here but am still a Baptist (un-officially SBC).

__________________
Joseph F Scibbe
Chaplain Assistant
Chapel of Wings Ft Rucker Al
Ephesians 1:4-7, 1 Thessalonians 2:8, Romans 12:1-2
Titus 2:2 - But you, teach what accords with sound doctrine.

http://twitter.com/just_joe_scibbe

I am now in Saint Louis on furlough.

Come out from among them, brother.

__________________
Brad
Member- Eagle Heights PCA
Winchester, VA

Pro 16:33 The lot is cast into the lap; but the whole disposing thereof is of the LORD.

Isa 8:20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.

Yes, the answer is ALWAYS to separate, right!


Until you have 12 disgruntled folks in a living room somewhere bemoaning how fallen the rest of the church is.

I see your point and raise you...

Guess you have to decide what form your separation takes... and which is in conformity to scripture.

The devil sure works hard to divide us, doesn't he?

But if I did did plant churches that I would know would be incorporated into a foreign denomination?

The area where I am working is remote and wild. My strategy is to take the existing church and to mentor and help them as they try to reach this unreached area. This, by necessity, means that I am expanding this national denomination as I try to enliven the already-existing Christian movement in Papua. It is a Christian movement, but a broad one and this broad cooperation is too much for some of my supporters.

So they would prefer that you reach fewer of the lost with the gospel, to maintain independence?

As long as you can demonstrate that the message you are bringing is the true gospel, doesn't Mark 9:40 - "For he that is not against us is on our part." apply?

Some would call me a pragmatist and a compromiser for doing so.

-----Added 6/16/2009 at 03:12:12 EST-----

Plus, I myself am maintaining my independance. I am not "under" this denomination; I am parralel (if that makes since)...I am akin to a subject matter expert coming in from the outside to advise the national denomination, i.e., their guest co-laborour.

This is how my church operates. We are members of FIRE and have a strong desire for unity among believers, especially those who hold to the doctrines of grace (necessary because it changes what, how, and why we preach). However, there is no issue with blessing other denominations, helping other churches, participating in Bible studies or missions or anything else of other churches, etc. We are but one group of believers; we want to work with the entire body of Christ to the glory of God.

Though it's not too common to find a good balance of independency and cooperation/connectionalism, there are certainly some churches that operate in this way.

__________________
Andrew Thornquist My Photo Album
Calvinistic Baptist
Ukiah, California
To follow Christ was the best decision God made for me!

Well, Pergs maybe that tack will help... show them that you are essentially a consultant whose work is to aim them in the right direction. And if you are in agreement with these supporter's polity, that would include trying to move the indigenous Churches towards that sort of independence. All the while preaching and teaching the gospel.

I don't know though... I have a hard time talking to Baptists... I think there's some kinda language barrier.

Present company excepted, of course.