Oh, Be careful little eyes what you see!

Interesting resource with historical quotations, etc.

Cheers,

__________________
Adam B., Wine Country, California, PCA

"I fear not to hold with Junius, de Politia Mosis cap. 6, that he who was punishable by death under that Judicial law, is punishable by death still; and he who was not punished by death then, is not to be punished by death now."

Who runs the site?

__________________
Chris Coldwell, Lakewood Presbyterian Church (PCA), Dallas, Texas.
• Naphtali Press: Presbyterian & Reformed Books
• Westminster Letter Press
• The Confessional Presbyterian Journal
• The Blue Banner Archive

The Regulative Principle: The Scriptures are the “only infallible rule of faith and practice, no rite or ceremony ought to have a place in the public worship of God, which is not warranted in Scripture, either by direct precept or example, or by good and sufficient inference” (Samuel Miller).

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Are you sure this thread doesn't belong under Computers and Technology forum as an example of how not to design a web site?

__________________
Rich
PCA, Northern VA
Student, New Geneva Theological Seminary

WebsiteMaven - Web Hosting Reviews, Guides, and Advice to build and promote your web site.
SoliDeoGloria.com - A Community for Reformed Thought and Discussion

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-----Added 6/30/2009 at 03:05:37 EST-----

Not sure. That's why I said "Oh, Be careful little eyes!"

You owe me two aspirins for the headache those graphics gave me.

__________________
Lance G. Marshall
Pastor
Georgetown, Indiana

It is pretty ugly.

It's reassuring to know that we all have such important priorities!

I was hoping to see some comments that didn't have to do with the graphics of the site...

So what is a good working definition of establishmentarianism?

__________________
Ben Maas. . . . .Facebook
In college, attending First Presbyterian Church (PCUSA), Ada, OH, and
Belle Center Reformed Presbyterian Church (RPCNA), Belle Center, OH
When at home, attending Covenant Presbyterian Church (OPC), Mansfield, OH

“Prayer is as natural an expression of faith as breathing is of life.”
-Jonathan Edwards-

That's right; all establishment needs is another ugly site promoting it. And anonymously on top of that.

On the topic of discussing establishmentarianism, I think it's cool that there's this word in the dictionary: antidisestablishmentarianism

Is it still the longest word in the dictionary?

Glad you got my joke.

Cheers,

-----Added 6/30/2009 at 03:17:45 EST-----



In the English dictionary.

I think so...

but here's what was once regarded as the longest place name in the word... would love to hear Derek Thomas pronounce it

__________________
Todd K. Pedlar
member, First Congregational Church, (CCCC) Cresco, IA
http://inprincipiodeus.solideogloria.com
http://puritanwisdom.blogspot.com

"As God did not at first choose you because you were high, He will not now forsake you because you are low."
John Flavel in Keeping the Heart



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This might be a good starting point:

Cheers,

The original WCF is establishmentarian while the American revisions strip out those portions. I know Rev. Winzer faithfully represents the establishmentarian view on the PB.

Thanks, Adam and Rich. Turns out I already knew what it was (and affirmed it) without linking the concept to its specific name.

Who owns this website?

__________________
Josiah Lovett
Member of
Trinity OPC
Bothell WA
Orthodox Presbyterian Church
Westminster Standards

It could be argued, however, that the revision merely represents a non-denominational establishment. I agree that it does preclude the original version of the establishment, and that the trajectory was toward what we see in the modern world. But, for a magistrate to be called a "nursing father" to the church, and still be required (in the catechetical explanations) to support and maintain the church is a mild form of establishmentarianism which every office bearer in revised WCF churches agrees to (barring, of course, exceptions).

Cheers,

I really haven't studied the issue in great depth but I know that Rev. Winzer has repeatedly noted that it really requires a Christian magistrate to work itself out in the way that the WCF intended and it would be difficult under our current form of government to have the current administration calling a Synod to resolve a theological controversy.

I believe Rev. Winzer is right.

However, the same agument about the difficulty of such an arrangement would have seemed very real to the Christians in the late 200s, early 300s, and yet they were emancipated not long thereafter, with Nicea being called within a quarter of a century.

It reminds me of something I read recently about many of the presbyters at Nicea having mutilated faces, ears, etc. from the persecution throughout their lifetime, to then command kings and empires.

Cheers,

How could a civil magistrate be a nursing father in a church? What role would you want your senator to play in your congregation? How would you safeguard poor dissenting baptists?

__________________
Pergamum


"If a commission by an earthly king is considered a honor, how can a commission by a Heavenly King be considered a sacrifice?"
-- David Livingstone

True enough. Historically there are some questions about Constantine's motivations in calling the Council but I believe the Lord used the Providence, whatever his personal motivations, for the good of the Church. Not all was good out of that involvement as he introduced the idea of vestments into the Church as well but I don't want to get off track.

I think the interesting discussion is how a government such as ours could deal with heresy or if it requires a radical Reformation. Part of me wouldn't mind seeing the government protecting people from heresy but they don't really have the tools necessary to detect it given our culture's captivity to non-Christian philosophies.

I'm not against the notion of Establishmentarianism in principle but am weary of certain types.

So, this would mean that the 1788 revision of the WCF was NOT a step forward?

I'm skating on thin ice here but I think the particular clauses with respect to the Magistrate could be modified a bit to talk about how the principle would operate when the Magistrate is completely hostile to the Christian religion. It doesn't seem like that's the pre-supposition in the original.

Pergamum,

The prophet's description is concerning the Messianic age being a time when the kings will be like nursing fathers to God's children. To see what a nursing father is like would not require much more than reading 1 & 2 Samuel, and 1 & 2 Kings, concerning the "good things" that were done by kings.

What role would I want the senator to play in my congregation? I suppose that would depend on what my congregation was doing, teaching, promoting, etc.

A magistrate may safeguard poor dissenting baptists by helping them see the error of their ways

Cheers,

So you would favor a 3rd revision on this point? Maybe something in between the original and the 1788 revisions?

I think the same could be stated concerning Romans 13. The principal that the magistrate is God's servant, and to administer His vengence is universally applicable, regardless of the personal or official status of a given magistrate. Just as the rules don't change for faithless husbands; the rules are the same. The church's task is to warn the adulterer, as well as the adulterous magistrate.

Cheers,

What methods would he employ?

It depends in what point of the spectrum one stands.

-----Added 6/30/2009 at 05:56:14 EST-----

Synods, councils, instruction, warning, rebuke; that would be a good start.

Were you hoping I'd go Zwinglian on you?

Cheers,

"a good start"? GULP.

If you start there, where will you end?





By the way, sensing the unpopularity and steam of that other word "theonomy," is your use of the term establishmentarianism a new trend for the same platform?

I spell God with a capital "g"

Did you read the cite I sent? I introduced a thread on establishmentarianism throughout the centuries. I don't care if Theonomy is an unpopular term.

Cheers,

For those looking for a good description of the Reformed establishmentarian conception, see Turretin's Institutes, Topic 18, Question 34. Be sure to read the whole chapter. It will sum it up nicely.

__________________
Paul Korte
OPC
Flint, MI

They who perceive in themselves discoveries of the divine goodness, so full and absolutely perfect, and who make them the subject of earnest meditation, will never embrace new doctrines, by which the very grace they feel so powerfully in themselves is thrown into the shade. --John Calvin

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Do you have an electronic version? I can't find Turretin online.

I don't. As far as I know, there are no electronic editions of Turretin in English; only Latin. But, check your PM box.

Can I check my PM box too, I would love to read this. ME TOO ME TOO!

Some main points:

1. Although princes may not compel any to faith or religion, nevertheless they have the duty to establish, nourish and protect the true faith. While he may not compel any, he is, however, as a caring father to admonish and encourage his subjects to the faith, and to admonish those ministers delinquent in their duty, and also through external means to ensure good order in the church.

2. Even as bishops may not legislate nor plead in court, so the magistrate may not take upon himself the ministry of the word or sacrament; nor is he concerned with religion as it is internal and pertains to the conscience, but only externally, as to good order in the kingdom.

3. Private belief and conviction may not be punished; only public and outward teaching and subversion. Therefore, while the true faith and church is to be established (and no other religion), nevertheless not only are none to be compelled thereunto, but private belief and scruple (and practice) are outside his sphere.

4. Even as the magistrate is not to punish all sins, neither is he to punish all heresies, nor to punish all equally, remembering that his duties are to nurture his subjects, and to maintain good order, whereby only the most notorious and subversive, irreconcilable heretics are to be punished with extreme measures.

The mighty Wikipedia states that:


antidisestablishmentarianism is the longest non-coined and nontechnical word in the English dictionary.

Pneumonoultramicroscopicsilicovolcanoconiosis is the longest word in a major dictionary, which according to the Oxford English Dictionary is, "a factitious word alleged to mean 'a lung disease caused by the inhalation of very fine silica dust, causing inflammation in the lungs.'

While the longest word in a Shakespear play is "Honorificabilitudinitatibus"

__________________
Mike
London City Presbyterian Church
London
England

"Surely, we wish to be orthodox, but we must first learn what real orthodoxy is. Surely, we wish to be progressive, but we must first have a basis to progress from."

189819 letters for the longest ever word?! That has to be a typo.

No..... that has to be ............... WIKIPEDIA!!

__________________
Soli Deo Gloria,
Jeff - FCC - Georgia


"Every word of God is pure" — Proverbs 30:5

"For my part, whatever anguish of spirit it may cost, I am willing to know the whole truth; to know the worst, and to provide for it." — Patrick Henry, A.D. 1775