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04-30-2008, 10:44 PM
|  | Puritanboard Postgraduate | | Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Chapel Hill, NC
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| | | Baptists are not Protestants
I know that some of the Baptists on the board get upset when some Presbyterians say that Baptists aren't Reformed. Well, it appears as though we're being quite lenient, and in comparison to Baptists, nonetheless! Recently I was looking at the websites of churches in Darmstadt, Germany and came across an article at the "Bibel Baptisten Gemeinde" (Bible Baptist Church) entitled "Baptisten sind keine Protestanten" (Baptists are not Protestants). Here is the link to a full English translation.
(note: I obviously think this is ridiculous. It's just funny and I wanted to share it because it is an example of Baptists who are trying very hard not to be affiliated with the Reformed, for some silly and obviously bad reasons.)
I'll quote some particularly interesting passages: Quote: Historically Baptists Are Not Protestants
Protestants date from the sixteenth century. They are the Lutherans, the Reformed and others who were once Roman Catholics and left the Roman Catholic faith to start denominations of their own. The Baptists never left the Roman Catholic church as did Luther, Calvin and Zwingli. They never left because they were never in. They did not begin their existence at the time of the Reformation but hundreds of years prior to the Reformation.
Baptists make no effort to trace a historical succesion back to the age of the Apostles. Their only claim is that at every age in church history there have been groups that have held to the same doctrines that Baptists hold today. These groups may or may not have been connected and they have been known by various names. There were the Montanists (150 A.D.), the Novatians (240 A.D.), Donatists (305 A.D.), Paulicians (650 A.D.) , Albigenses (1022 A.D.), Waldensians (1170 A.D.) and the name Anabaptists came into prominence just before the time of the Protestant Reformation.
Full historical data immediately refutes the view that there was only one religious group - the Roman Catholic church until the time of martin Luther. Anyone who claims this simply has not done his homework.
I wish to purposely introduce non-Baptist testimony to the great antiquity of Baptist people. Cardinal Hosius (1504-1579) was a Roman Catholic prelate who had as his life work the investigation and suppression of non-Catholic groups. By pope Paul IV he was designated one of the three papal presidents of the famous Council of Trent. Hosius carried on vigoriously the work of the counter-reformation. If anyone in the post-reformation times knew the doctrines and history of non-Catholic groups, it was Hosius. Cardinal Hosius says, "Were it not that the Baptists have benn grievously tormented and cut off with the knive during the past 1,200 years, they would swarm in greater number than all the Reformers" (Letters Apud Opera, pp. 112,113). Note carefully that this knowledgeable Catholic scholar has spoken of the vicious persecution Baptists have endured, that he clearly distinguishes them from the Reformers and that he dates them 1,200 years before the Protestant Reformation.
It is also evident that the Baptists were not Protestants because they were fiercely persecuted by the Protestant Reformers and their followers. Uncounted, thousands of them lost their goods, their lands and their lives in these persecutions. Konrad Grebel died in prison in 1526. Felix Manz was drowned by the authorities at Zurich 1527. Noted baptist leader Balthauser Hubmaier was burned alive at the stake in Vienna March 10, 1528. Three days later his wife was drowned by being thrown over the Danube bridge with a stone tied to her neck. The facts abundantly attest that historically Baptists are not Protestants.
Doctrinally Baptists Are Not Protestants
The viewpoint that Baptists share common doctrinal ground with Protestant groups is not an accurate reporting of the facts. There are six striking differences.
(1) Baptists believe with all their hearts that Godīs Word alone is sufficient for faith and practice. We read "All Scripture is given by inspiration of God and is profitable for doctrine..." ( II Timothy 3:16). Various Protestant denomination have creeds, catechisms and assorted doctrinal standards. Baptists hold to the Bible alone.
(2) Baptists believe that Christ and only Christ is the head of the Church, even as the Scripture says "Christ is the Head of the Church" (Ephesians 5:23). There is no man who has the oversight of Baptist Churches. Baptists have no denomination in the sense of an organization that controls local congregations. Each local church is autonomous and accountable only to Christ, who is its Head. A Baptist Church, while fellowshipping with congregations of like faith and practice, has no headquarters in St. Louis, Nashville or New York City. Its headquarters is in Heaven.
(3) Baptists believe in their hearts in a free church in a free state. Christ plainly taught that the state and the church each had its own realm when he said "Render therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesarīs; and unto God the things which are Godīs" (Matthew 22:21). Baptists are vigoriously opposed to union of state and church and believe that a state controlled church is a wretched excuse for Christianity and a plain departure from Scripture. All of the Protestant Reformers fastened state state churches upon their followers! Today Americans enjoy separation of church and state because of the vigor and vigilance of Baptists in the early days of our national history.
(4) Baptists believe strongly in the individual accountability to God because the Scriptures clearly teach that "everyone of us shall give account of himself to God" (Romans 14:12). A priest cannot answer for you, a church cannot answer for you to God. God-parents cannot answer for you. No one is saved because of what his parents believe. No one is saved because of his identification with any any religion. He will account for himself to God. Protestants generally do not hold this Scriptural doctrine.
(5) Baptist people furthermore have always held to believerīs baptism. None of the Protestant Reformers held this Bible teaching. In the Scriptures faith and repentance always preceded baptism. On the day of Pentecost Peter plainly told the people "repent and be baptized" (Acts 2:38). This obviously means that there is no infant baptism. since infants are incapable of repenting. No unbelievers are to be baptized. The Reformers followed Rome in their teaching of baptism. Baptists have held stedfastly to the doctrine of Christ and His Apostles on this point.
(6) Baptists on the basis of Scripture have always held to a regenerate church membership, that is a membership that is made up only of people who give a credible profession of faith in Christ. In the Apostolic church only those who became believers, those who received the Word of God and who had repented of their sins, were baptized and received as church members (Acts 2:41). There was no automatic or formalistic membership in apostolic churches nor in Baptist churches today.
From the review of these simple points it is more than clear that doctrinally Baptists are not Protestants.
| If you click on "Sign our Guestbook" and then "Read Entires," you'll see that I linked them to the London Baptist Confession. 
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Davidius
Husband of Emilia
Member: First Reformed Presbyterian Church of Durham (RPCNA) - Durham, NC
Student: University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill, German Literature and Classics
This may explain the old adage about Baptists being Methodists with shoes, and Presbyterians being Baptists who can read. To round out the adage, Lutherans might qualify as Presbyterians who drink to excess, and Episcopalians as Lutherans who know when to say when. - D.G. Hart
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04-30-2008, 10:45 PM
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Some Baptists identify with Protestantism and some do not.
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Chris Poe--Attending Grace Community Baptist Church, Mandeville, LA "There never was a man in the world without a creed. What is a creed? A creed is what you believe. What is a confession? It is a declaration of what you believe. That declaration may be oral or it may be committed to writing, but the creed is there either expressed or implied."B.H. Carroll |
04-30-2008, 10:48 PM
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| | Well shucks. I guess we don't get any of the buzz words 
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04-30-2008, 10:51 PM
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04-30-2008, 10:52 PM
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| | Quote:
Originally Posted by Devin  Well shucks. I guess we don't get any of the buzz words | You get "Baptist."  At least they didn't say "No creed but Christ. No title but 'Christian'!" |
04-30-2008, 10:53 PM
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| | I was kind of waiting for something to be said in the article about potluck dinners, actually. |
04-30-2008, 10:56 PM
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| | | I am encouraged by this part
Quote: |
(3) Baptists believe in their hearts in a free church in a free state. Christ plainly taught that the state and the church each had its own realm when he said "Render therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesarīs; and unto God the things which are Godīs" (Matthew 22:21). Baptists are vigoriously opposed to union of state and church and believe that a state controlled church is a wretched excuse for Christianity and a plain departure from Scripture. All of the Protestant Reformers fastened state state churches upon their followers! Today Americans enjoy separation of church and state because of the vigor and vigilance of Baptists in the early days of our national history
| I like.
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04-30-2008, 10:58 PM
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| | Quote:
Originally Posted by staythecourse Quote: |
(3) Baptists believe in their hearts in a free church in a free state. Christ plainly taught that the state and the church each had its own realm when he said "Render therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesarīs; and unto God the things which are Godīs" (Matthew 22:21). Baptists are vigoriously opposed to union of state and church and believe that a state controlled church is a wretched excuse for Christianity and a plain departure from Scripture. All of the Protestant Reformers fastened state state churches upon their followers! Today Americans enjoy separation of church and state because of the vigor and vigilance of Baptists in the early days of our national history
| I like. | From what I understand, the American colonists were Congregationalists and Presbyterians. Can someone provide any information about Baptists who were influential in the development of American politics?
Last edited by Davidius; 05-01-2008 at 09:04 AM.
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04-30-2008, 11:01 PM
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| | Quote:
Originally Posted by Davidius Quote:
Originally Posted by staythecourse Quote: |
(3) Baptists believe in their hearts in a free church in a free state. Christ plainly taught that the state and the church each had its own realm when he said "Render therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesarīs; and unto God the things which are Godīs" (Matthew 22:21). Baptists are vigoriously opposed to union of state and church and believe that a state controlled church is a wretched excuse for Christianity and a plain departure from Scripture. All of the Protestant Reformers fastened state state churches upon their followers! Today Americans enjoy separation of church and state because of the vigor and vigilance of Baptists in the early days of our national history
| I like. | Which part do you like? The lie about the "vigor and vigilance of Baptists in the early days of our national history"?? The American colonists were Congregationalists and Presbyterians. Who are these Baptists who shaped American government?? | Isaac Backus was one. Baptists became much more prominent after the First Great Awakening.  | | The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Pilgrim For This Useful Post: | |
04-30-2008, 11:05 PM
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| | Baptists are not Protestants (can I say different Dispensations? ). Although they used to be Calvinistic. (Of course, so were alot of protestants). Presby pot lucks are great, but I bet there's more homecooked food at Baptist's pot lucks! (hmm, used to be Calvinistic, great pot lucks, maybe they are more related than we think)
A short study of Church History will show that Baptist's have a different origin than the Reformation, but because of their following the Bible, there are similarities of Doctrine. |
04-30-2008, 11:06 PM
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| | | Dates in Baptist History
In 1525 Swiss Anabaptists broke with Zwingli.
1535 Anabaptists in Zurich were suppressed.
1537 Menno Simons became leader of the Dutch Anabaptists
1538 Efforts made to expell Anabaptists from England
1609 First English General Baptist Church formed in Holland
1611 Organization of First General Baptist Church in England
1638 The first Particular Baptist Church organized by Spilsbury
1638-39 Organization of the first Baptist church in America @ Providence RI by Roger Williams
1644 London Confession of 1644/ Organization of Association of London Particular Baptists.
------------------------------
But NO "Baptist" activity prior to Zwingli. Sounds like a product of the Reformation to me. 
__________________ Sterling Harmon
Coventry, CT
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04-30-2008, 11:06 PM
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| | Quote:
Originally Posted by Pilgrim Quote:
Originally Posted by Davidius Quote:
Originally Posted by staythecourse
I like.
| Which part do you like? The lie about the "vigor and vigilance of Baptists in the early days of our national history"?? The American colonists were Congregationalists and Presbyterians. Who are these Baptists who shaped American government?? | Isaac Backus was one. Baptists became much more prominent after the First Great Awakening. | Well, all right. I guess I was thinking of earlier. Shouldn't they really be thanking the Presbyterians who revised the WCF for the separation of Church and State, though? |
04-30-2008, 11:15 PM
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| | | Actually, I believe I heard that Patrick Henry attended both Baptist and Presbyterian Churches. Both were heavily persecuted because they were not licensed nor supported by the King as the Church of England was the Official church of the state.
Another thing.... It matters which Baptists you want to direct your point at. The Particular Baptists claim their heritage comes from the Reformers. Not the other groups the article claims. Confessional Baptists are Protestant in nature and their Confession addresses Catholicism as the Reformers does. At least that is how I understand it.
Yes there are Baptists who claim they are not protestant because they had nothing to protest against since they didn't come out of Catholicism. What ever. |
04-30-2008, 11:20 PM
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| | Quote:
Originally Posted by Davidius Quote:
Originally Posted by Pilgrim Quote:
Originally Posted by Davidius
Which part do you like? The lie about the "vigor and vigilance of Baptists in the early days of our national history"?? The American colonists were Congregationalists and Presbyterians. Who are these Baptists who shaped American government??
| Isaac Backus was one. Baptists became much more prominent after the First Great Awakening. | Well, all right. I guess I was thinking of earlier. Shouldn't they really be thanking the Presbyterians who revised the WCF for the separation of Church and State, though? | Here is another article about Backus. Backus predated the revised WCF by decades and I don't think anyone on either side would disagree that the revision is much closer to his views than it is to the original. The revisions of the WCF came after the Constitutional Convention as well. | | The Following User Says Thank You to Pilgrim For This Useful Post: | |
04-30-2008, 11:22 PM
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| | Baptists are mentioned in these articles... This is during the Revolutionary Times. Religion and the Founding of the American Republic.
And here is a commentary of his defense of Baptist Preachers. Patrick Henry on Religious Freedom. | | The Following User Says Thank You to PuritanCovenanter For This Useful Post: | |
04-30-2008, 11:25 PM
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| | | This is ErgunCaner's line. He wants no part of the Reformation.
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04-30-2008, 11:28 PM
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| | Quote:
Originally Posted by staythecourse Quote: |
(3) Baptists believe in their hearts in a free church in a free state. Christ plainly taught that the state and the church each had its own realm when he said "Render therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesarīs; and unto God the things which are Godīs" (Matthew 22:21). Baptists are vigoriously opposed to union of state and church and believe that a state controlled church is a wretched excuse for Christianity and a plain departure from Scripture. All of the Protestant Reformers fastened state state churches upon their followers! Today Americans enjoy separation of church and state because of the vigor and vigilance of Baptists in the early days of our national history
| I like. | This is wrong. 80% of the Founding Fathers were evil, evil Calvinist Protestants.
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04-30-2008, 11:29 PM
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| | | Dates continued
Quote:
Originally Posted by Presbyterian Deacon In 1525 Swiss Anabaptists broke with Zwingli.
1535 Anabaptists in Zurich were suppressed.
1537 Menno Simons became leader of the Dutch Anabaptists
1538 Efforts made to expell Anabaptists from England
1609 First English General Baptist Church formed in Holland
1611 Organization of First General Baptist Church in England
1638 The first Particular Baptist Church organized by Spilsbury
1638-39 Organization of the first Baptist church in America @ Providence RI by Roger Williams
1644 London Confession of 1644/ Organization of Association of London Particular Baptists.
------------------------------
But NO "Baptist" activity prior to Zwingli. Sounds like a product of the Reformation to me. |
1660 Organization of General Assembly of all Associations of General Baptists in London
1670 Organization of General Six-Principle Baptists in Rhode Island
1677 Baptist Confession of 1677 (a Baptist revision of WCF)
1689 General Assembly of General Baptists threatened by Arian teachings of Matthew Caffyn
1689 London Confession of Particular Baptists/ General Assembly of Particular Baptists organized in London
1707 Organization of Philadelphia Association of Baptists (first Baptist association in America). |
04-30-2008, 11:34 PM
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| | | Whoa! Wait a minute. What about the trail of blood that goes back to Noah? Wasn't he the first baptist? I know he had the first potlucks because he was the first one who got to eat meat. And obviously he and his household were baptized as believers when God sent the flood, ruling out paedobaptism. Don't any of you study historical theology?! |
04-30-2008, 11:38 PM
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