I have seen a couple of threads that have referenced self love in fairly negative terms. This got me thinking in terms of a logical syllogism (as I am wont to do) based around the great commandment: edited to add - I see and confess that I am not actually thinking in a formal logical syllogism, but something else entirely - read on for enlightenment

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p1 YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR STRENGTH, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND

p2 [you shall also love] YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF

c1 If you strive to love God completely and correctly, you will love yourself in a godly manner, thus allowing you to love your neighbor in the same way.

c2 God's love is abundantly self-sacrificial and long-suffering, so also should our self love and love for our neighbors

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So - does the logic hold water?

How about the conclusions?

What other conclusions, if any, can logically follow?

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1Thess5:21
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No, I don't think it holds water.

The love for self is not something that needs to be developed according to the Scriptures. It's quite natural for us to focus inward, to care for our bodies, to look out for ourselves, to literally obsess about ourselves.

I don't know how you derived c1 from p1 and p2. There is no logical connection between the premises and the conclusion. The loving of yourself is in reference to how we love our neighbors.

The reason for the Law is because we are naturally bent inward. Paul, later in Romans, talks about the fact that love does no harm to a neighbor. The reason we harm our neighbor is always selfish self-interest. The fact that we don't love God with all our heart, soul, and mind is because we're too focused upon ourselves. Too obsessed with ourselves.

The solution isn't to learn how to better look within but to more properly look outside of ourselves.

Even our view of what we're redeemed for is profoundly outward focused. I was just criticizing last night the "Jesus is my Boyfriend" view that pictures our relationship with Jesus as this weeping fellow outside the door of our hearts that is pleading with us that He won't be able to live in eternity without us. If we would just let Him in then not only we would be complete but then He would find the joy of His heart.

In contrast, our redemption is to be seen as God glorifying Himself in the redemption of a people that the Father brings to the Son, who are converted and perfected by the Holy Spirit, to be presented spotless to the Bridegroom, that He might, in turn, give back to the Father in an expression of a profound intra-Trinitarian Love. Love is explicitly God-focused and even the fact that God is Love is expressed in the sending of His Son and not in the fact that He teaches us to love ourselves.

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Acknowledged - I am not referencing this type love - unless you believe that is the love referenced in the Scripture quoted?

"as you love yourself"


loving yourself logically predicates loving your neighbor in the Scripture quoted


I'm not sure you actually read what I posted - I think your presuppositions have stained your discernment - please, go back and read the post again.

ok... how does OP point to this?

which is what the OP expressed...

J.D.,

I answered your question. If you don't like the answer I gave then I have no further information I can provide. I don't believe that the basis for learning to love our neighbor is learning how to love ourselves in a Godly way. That thought is never repeated in the Scriptures.

As I've stated, c1 is faulty. There is no logical connection between the premises and the conclusion.

As Rich said, self love is assumed. Self love is sinfull as it is naturally exclusive to self. I just read an excellent article in by Horton in Modern Reformation where he alludes to this point in contrast to the self love gospel being carried by many evangelicals today. It is a very good article.

__________________
Bruce
PCUSA
Ocean City NJ

We all love ourselves whether we try it or not. Even the suicidal person who kills himself because "nobody loves them" is actually doing so because he loves himself. That is he puts his feelings and desires above everyone else to the point that he will end his own life because he did not get his own way.

The ultimate reason we do anything is due to a love of self. That does not mean such is evil in every case, but it is a love of oneself nonetheless. We marry because we want to fulfill a selfish desire for love, companionship, pleasure, etc. Part of our motivation for having children is to please oneself. To pursue a particular vocation is to satisfy a personal desire either to perform some action or obtain some sort of reward/earnings. I believe all our actions are tainted with some sort of self fulfillment and gratification. To love my neighbor as myself makes this command all that more daunting and reveals how yet again I fall short of the glory of God.

I read the scripture for my benefit. I read and interact on this board for my edification. I eat food to satisfy my needs (I don't eat for others sake). When we see just how much we do love ourselves, obeying the perfect law of Christ is not clear cut and simple (not suggesting that anyone said it was).

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Christopher Reeder
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I struggled with this idea of self-love for a long time, and this is pretty much the conclusion I came to. We already love ourselves, and so that command to love our neighbors as ourselves, as I see it, is saying "love others in the way you already love yourself. Think about others first."

In contrast, our redemption is to be seen as God glorifying Himself in the redemption of a people that the Father brings to the Son, who are converted and perfected by the Holy Spirit, to be presented spotless to the Bridegroom, that He might, in turn, give back to the Father in an expression of a profound intra-Trinitarian Love. Love is explicitly God-focused and even the fact that God is Love is expressed in the sending of His Son and not in the fact that He teaches us to love ourselves

I agree with this statement.

There was another discussion on this thread about forgiving yourself, and I think that there is some connection here. When we look at ourselves, we can only see sin and the guilt we feel can drive us to despair or it can make us arrogant at how sinful we see ourselves (oh the gymnastics that our depraved hearts make). As was already said on the other thread, when we look at our sinful selves, we have to remember that though we are totally sinful, in Christ there is no condemnation. Our righteousness is found in Christ alone.

How does this connect to the self-love idea? I believe that once we have a Scriptural view of ourselves, we can begin to understand the sanctifying work that Christ is doing in us and be thankful for that. He has gifted us with spiritual gifts. Each of us is unique and, and God is doing a work in us to perfect us for His Son. I find great delight in knowing that God will one day complete my sanctification, and I will be ready to love and serve Him for eternity. There is a hope and an understanding that God will complete the work in us. In that sense, we can be thankful for what God is doing in us, and that brings great joy to our hearts. Is that love for self? No, but I think it fits in this discussion.

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J Baldwin
Keowee Presbyterian Church, PCA
Pickens, SC
“You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind, and your neighbor as yourself.” Luke 10:27

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Folks - couple of questions to clarify the OP:

1. Is natural self-love godly?

2. Is natural self-love what Christ is truly referring to or is it self-love overwhelmingly influenced by loving God?

3. Should God's love be the model to reform our natural self-love?

4. Won't that reformed self-love help us better love our neighbor?

You guys are all using the word 'love' and I don't think anyone has defined it yet. Could someone define the word and then we will test it to see if it is a sin or not?

Love in it's simplest form is 'self-preservation'. Love without sentiment is 'election'. Love in Romans is putting another's needs before your own. Love in it's basic form is 'setting one's preference upon another'.

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Another question:

Is is possible to have an outward-focused God-centered self-love?

In reference to your first question--If I understand you correctly, you are asking this: Is natural self-love part of our sinful nature or is natural love something that was part of man in his innocency and is now going to be renewed in our sanctification? I would like to throw out this same question, because I think it is valid.

What would we look like if we were completely sinless, i.e. if our sanctification were complete? My answer is that we would be like Jesus was. If that is the case, did He love Himself? Does God love Himself? I think so, but not in the sinful way that man loves Himself. In the sense that God is completely satisfied with Who He is, He has no longing to be something other than He is, I believe God loves Himself.

Greek Lexicon on "Love" in Luke 10:27:

Agapao

Definition

1. of persons
1. to welcome, to entertain, to be fond of, to love dearly
2. of things
1. to be well pleased, to be contented at or with a thing

Used 109 times in the NT:

Matthew 7
Mark 4
Luke 9
John 27
Romans 6
1 Corinthians 2
2 Corinthians 3
Galatians 2
Ephesians 7
Colossians 2
1 Thessalonians 2
2 Thessalonians 2
2 Timothy 2
Hebrews 2
James 3
1 Peter 4
2 Peter 1
1 John 17
2 John 2
3 John 1
Revelation 4

As Rich said, self love is assumed. Self love is sinfull as it is naturally exclusive to self. I just read an excellent article in by Horton in Modern Reformation where he alludes to this point in contrast to the self love gospel being carried by many evangelicals today. It is a very good article.

You missed my definition. We know what love means, it is self love that needs defining.

KJV Dictionary - love

Which is the point of the OP - as we strive more and more to love God as we are in the process of being sanctified, our "natural" fallen self-love will become more and more turned toward the type of self-love God has - which will then influence us to love others as a perfect expression of godly self-love.

Which is the point of the OP. Self-love is not evil - otherwise the great commandment is flawed.

The refinement needs to center around:

Natural, Fallen, self-centered self-love vs God-centered, Christ-like self-love.

I disagree. I define love as found in the Bible as 'setting one's preference on another.' The greatest expression of love is found in God's election. The aim of true love is to preserve the object of love.

When scripture tells us to love God as we love ourselves it means we must preserve our relationship with God, we are to preserve the holiness of his name just as we naturally (by design) and unconsciously seek to preserve ourselves. It is not sinful, it is a design element. All God's creatures have a sense of self-preservation. Man is also given the command to preserve others (put their needs above our own) and preserve and strengthen our relationship with the creator.

I think you are over reacting to modern psychology's effort to esteem man above all things. We do have an innate dignity that comes from the image of God stamped on us. We are to love that image within us.

Christ helps us understand self-centered, self-love vs Godly love:

I'd thank your post, but I seem to have used my limit today!

Bowing out, danger danger semantics warning on the horizon

I think this is relevant, also: