Did O.T. Jews worship God in a strict monotheistic sense?
(strict monotheism = unitarianism = non-trinitarian)

Before Jesus came into the world (incarnation) what was
the Jew to put His faith in --was it "God the Father" as we
know Him, or was it in the "one who was to come" (Messiah)
or a combination?

Was there a particular person of the Trinity who was the
object of saving faith in the O.T?

As Christians, we say that no one is saved apart from
faith in Christ; in what way do we understand that to
be true of O.T. believers?

What does this verse mean:
"Abraham rejoiced at the thought of seeing my day;
he saw it and was glad."
--JN 8:56

Thanks

__________________
Matthew Scheffer
Christ The Redeemer (non-denominational)
http://www.christredeemer.com
Spokane, WA

Certainly one may look at the Shema as confirmation of a strictly momtheistic, in your terms, faith Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD;
and you shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your might. Faith is in God that He would Send a mediator between God and man and that that mediator would bridge the void between them.

__________________
Robert K. "Kelly" Brumbelow
In Inquirer's class at Grace Presbyterian (PCA) Cedartown, GA
Cedartown, Georgia

Dear Lord and Father of mankind, Forgive our foolish ways;
Reclothe us in our rightful mind, In purer lives Thy service find,
In deeper reverence, praise. - John Greenleaf Whittier 1807-1892

The Shema doesn't teach strict Monotheism, actually, as the word "one" there signifies a united one, rather than a singular one. It is the same word that is used about man and wife becoming one flesh.

But apparently, since the Middle Ages and the teachings of the Jewish scholar Maimonides, Jews, in accordance with Maimonides teaching have always treated the word echad or one in the Shema as a singular one.

__________________
Richard
communicant member, FCoS
Perth, Scotland UK

His Name forever shall endure;
last like the sun it shall:
Men shall be blessed in Him,
and blessed all nations shall Him call (Ps. 72:17)

The two cannot rightly be separated, as our faith is in the Father's word of promise fulfilled in the Son whom he has sent. There has never been a word of salvation in which we can place our faith apart from the Son in whom the promise is accomplished. From the very first promise of salvation, our first parents were directed to nothing else than the seed of the woman which should bruise the head of the serpent. Though Christ is set forth more fully under the New Testament, it has only ever been through knowledge of him that men have been saved.

__________________
Paul Korte
OPC
Flint, MI

They who perceive in themselves discoveries of the divine goodness, so full and absolutely perfect, and who make them the subject of earnest meditation, will never embrace new doctrines, by which the very grace they feel so powerfully in themselves is thrown into the shade. --John Calvin

Click to get: Board Rules -- Signature Requirements -- Suggestions?

The only thing I can add to this is that I think many (or at least some) Jews spell "God" as "G-d."

__________________
Ben Maas. . . . .Facebook
In college, attending First Presbyterian Church (PCUSA), Ada, OH, and
Belle Center Reformed Presbyterian Church (RPCNA), Belle Center, OH
When at home, attending Covenant Presbyterian Church (OPC), Mansfield, OH

“Prayer is as natural an expression of faith as breathing is of life.”
-Jonathan Edwards-

Echad
This word occurs 960 times [there exists a discrepancy on the number of occurrences between authors] as a noun, adjective, or adverb, as a cardinal or ordinal number, often used in a distributive sense. It is closely identified with yahad "to be united" and with ro'sh "first, head," especially in connection with the "first day" of the month (Gen 8:13). It stresses unity while recognizing diversity within that Oneness. Sometimes the phrase " as one man" can mean "all at once" (Num 14:15), but when Gideon was told he would defeat Midian " as one man" it probably meant " as easily as a single man" (Jud 6:16) The phrase can also refer to a nation aroused to take united action against gross injustice (Jud 20:8; I Sam 11:7). Zephaniah's mention of people serving God "with one shoulder" (3:9) likely means "shoulder to shoulder," solidly united. Likewise in Ex 24:3 "with one voice" expresses that all Israel was involved in entering into the Covenant with Yahweh. The concept of unity is related to the tabernacle, whose curtains are fastened together to form one unit (Ex 26:6, 11; 36:13). Adam and Eve are described as "one flesh" (Gen 2:24), which includes more than sexual unity. In Gen 34:16 the men of Shechem suggest intermarriage with Jacob's children in order to become "one people." Later, Ezekiel predicted that the fragmented nation of Israel would someday be reunited, as he symbolically joined two sticks (37:17). Once again Judah and Ephraim would be one nation with one king (37:22). Abraham was viewed as "the one" from whom all the people descended (Isa 51:2; Mal 2:15), the one father of the nation. Diversity within unity is also seen from the fact that `echad has a plural form, `ahadim. It is translated "a few days" in Gen 27:44; 29:20, and Dan 11:20. In Gen 11:1 the plural modifies "words": "the whole earth used the same language and the same words." Apparently it refers to the same vocabulary, the same set of words spoken by everyone at the tower of Babel. The first "same" in Gen 11:1 is singular , analogous to "the same laws" of the Passover applying to native-born and foreigner (Ex 12:49; cf. Num 15:16), or to the "one law" of sure death for approaching the Persian king without invitation (Est 4:11). In the famous Shema of Deut 6:4, "Hear, O Israel....the LORD is one," the question of diversity within unity has theological implications. Some scholars have felt that, though "one" is singular, the usage of the word allows for the doctrine of the Trinity. While it is true that this doctrine is foreshadowed in the OT, the verse concentrates on the fact that there is but one God and that Israel owes it exclusive loyalty to him (Deut 5:9; 6:5)" (Harris, Archer, Waltke, Volume 1, p.30).


taken from http://www.answering-christianity.com/echad.htm

Yes many Jews ( and I used to) remove the vowels from and mentioning of God as there is a belief that putting the name of God on something gives it an intrinsic holiness and it must be treated differently.

It seems their faith was in the Father to bring the Son who would be the Saviour. Of course the unregenerate Israelite only understood this in the physical sense. But the Regenerate like David had a more spiritual understanding though not as clear as ours.

Obviously they believed God had a Spirit and speak of the Spirit as God. I don't know how we could think David would think of the Spirit other than being God or God's Spirit.

How would you differentiate you from your spirit? Are they two separate beings or one?

So though they had a monotheistic belief it had room for the Spirit and the Son. Perhaps not as clearly worked out as Chalcedon.

They had the sacrifices which pointed them to the Son and what he would do for them. The saved ones would have faith in the suffering savior to come as well as the Father and not rest soley in the blood of Bulls and goats.

Just as the author of Hebrews tells us they did not seek an earthly kingdom only but a heavenly

We often read more of the unregenerate Israelite and the Jews after the captivity and dispersion than the converted Israelite.

__________________
DonP

Thanks for the responses so far.
I'll try and respond more later -- when there's more time, but I have one more question.

Is there anything (a command) in the O.T. that instructed the Jews to put their faith --in a saving way --in the Christ (messiah) who was to come? Or was that implied in the sacrifices? I'm asking because I was just reading Luke where it talks about how Simeon was waiting for the consolation of Israel. Does this imply that he had faith in the consolation (Jesus) or just the consolator (God the Father)?
Thanks again

Matthew, they were never instructed in salvation without reference to faith in the coming seed: Christ and salvation cannot be separated, nor without Christ would there be anything "vague salvation" to place faith in. In Genesis 3, the promised deliverance is through the seed of the woman; and we see in Lamech's prophecy regarding the typological Noah how this was understood; the promise to Abraham was that in the promised seed the nations would be blessed and the curse undone; the Mosaic ceremonies cannot be understood apart from the foundational framework in which they were set -- the promise of God saving all nations in Abraham's coming seed; almost all that the prophets spoke concerned Christ and the coming New Covenant he would inaugurate; &c.

Re: Simeon, note that he looks upon Christ and says "I have seen your salvation." He was waiting for Christ, the consolation and savior of Israel.

I've read the same thing that Richard wrote above. It was from Loraine Boettner's The Doctrine of God, and he also quotes Maimonides as having changed (spelling from memory) achid to yachid (or visa versa) since it was used as a Christian proof text for the Trinity. The one being "one" and the other being a completed whole, like morning and night being "one" day.

I looked it up a couple years ago again, and he didn't give a source. If anyone has a source, I would be grateful.

Thanks

__________________
Tim Vaughan
Member, Redeemer Presbyterian, OPC,
Santa Maria
California

Yachid is plural. echad is singular if that helps any Tim

Thanks again for your input.
There have been a lot of helpful answers here.

So if Jews today, such as the Orthodox Jews, do not have faith in the Messiah (Jesus), then are they worshipping the same God as Christians? Orthodox Jews definitely have faith in something, but can we say that they are worshipping the God of the Bible?

(Please note: I'm NOT saying that anyone will be saved apart from faith in Jesus; I'm also NOT arguing that they worship the same God; I simply would like some feedback and possibly some scripture)

If someone believes that non-Christian Jews today are worshipping the same God as Christians, even though their view of that God is skewed, can we not then say --by extension-- that Muslims are worshipping the same God? Muslims believe in Abraham, Jesus, John the baptist, etc etc, although it's a very messed up version of them.

(Again, I'm not advocating this position --someone I know was).

Thanks again

No, Judaism left behind the worship of God centuries ago. What they worship today is no more God than Allah is.

Yeah, I've heard that argument before, and personally I find it annoying.

The easy answer is no, we don't worship the same God as present-day Jews do. If the OT Jews were to come to the present in a time machine, then it could accurately be said that we're worshiping the same God; otherwise, no.

Jesus' words to the Samaritan woman (Ye worship ye know not what) now apply equally as well to the Jews as they did to the Samaritans in that day. God is revealed in Christ; and those who reject Christ and his oracles reject also He who sent him; nor do they know him. Being strangers and aliens from the covenant and the promise, modern Jews can -- in a most basic sense -- be called atheists (see Eph. 2:12).

Ben & Robert,
I agree, and that's why I started this thread asking about whether or not faith in the Messiah was necessary in the O.T. Because if faith in the Messiah was not necessary in the O.T. --if they simply needed a general faith in "God," then we could say that modern Jews ARE worshipping the same God.

But as Jesus said, "those that worship God must worship Him in spirit and in truth."

Someone once told me that Muslims worship the same God as Christians --although they won't be saved without faith in Jesus. His logic was that since the Jews in the O.T. didn't "have" Jesus, and the Jews back then were worshipping God, then we can say that the present-day Jews are worshipping the same God as Christians, and --by extension --Muslims are worshipping the same God as Christians --they're just a bit screwed up in their understanding of Him.

Paul...
Thanks for that verse on the Samaritan woman; I think that adds quite a bit to this topic. Your comments have been helpful.

Thanks again.

The O.T. beliver needed very little knowledge of the Messiah to have true faith - look how ignorant even the disciples were before the crucifixion and resurrection.


To have true faith in a saving God, all O.T. Jews needed at a minimum was a word from God that He was willing and able to deal with their sins apart from their own righteousness, in which word they could put a sure and lasting confidence i.e. faith. See e.g. the Parable of the Tax Collector and the Pharisee.

They needed faith in God as the only/alone Saviour; they didn't need to know how it was going to be done. Modern day Jews don't have faith in God like this. If they did it would soon lead them to a greater understanding and acceptance of Jesus of Nazareth as the Messiah.

Modern Jews have enough in the O.T. (Tanakh) to bring them to salvation without the N.T., although if they were saved through the Tanakh it would lead them to seek the N.T. But like the Roman Catholics and others everything in Judaism points away from God as Saviour as He is taught about in the Tanakh.