Blasphemy of the H.S. and apostasy ...

amishrockstar · #1 (**permalink**) 10-17-2007, 11:54 PM

Most people that I've read or heard talking about blasphemy of the Holy Spirit tend to believe that the unpardonable sin is a willful and prolonged rejection of the gospel after coming to a good (mental) understanding of it .... if that's the case, then how are we to understand guys like Adoniram Judson? His father was a pastor, the gospel was preached in that house, Adoniram was a hardened athiest, and yet God saved him and used him as a missionary later on in life ... also, what do we do with guys like Franklin Graham who grew up hearing about Christ and the gospel, yet he turned to a lifestyle of debauchery only to be convicted later on and come to faith in Christ?
Any thoughts?
THANKS!

PuritanCovenanter · #2 (**permalink**) 10-18-2007, 12:06 AM

I guess my question would be can a regenerate, justified, spirit indwelt believer become an atheist? I don't think so.

Quote:

(1Jn 2:19) They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

(1Jn 5:9) If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater: for this is the witness of God which he hath testified of his Son.

(1Jn 5:10) He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.

amishrockstar · #3 (**permalink**) 10-18-2007, 12:38 AM

I don't really see what that question has to do with my question ... do you have any thoughts on a person who rejects Christ and the gospel, yet becomes a Christian later on in life (in light of the (above) understanding of the blasphemy of the H.S.)?
THANKS

PuritanCovenanter · #4 (**permalink**) 10-18-2007, 01:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by amishrockstar

Most people that I've read or heard talking about blasphemy of the Holy Spirit tend to believe that the unpardonable sin is a willful and prolonged rejection of the gospel after coming to a good (mental) understanding of it ....

Concerning Judson
By what you have stated this gentleman obviously didn't reject the gospel for that set prolonged time whereby God doesn't permit or grant repentance any longer. He ended up embracing Christ.

Concerning Graham
And turning to a life of debauchery is not necessarily the same as pronouncing Christianity a lie. It is living in deep sin and grieving the Holy Spirit though.

amishrockstar · #5 (**permalink**) 10-18-2007, 01:09 AM

I'd agree ...
how is it then that many believers assert that the blasphemy of the H.S. is (basically) a willful rejection of the gospel?

PuritanCovenanter · #6 (**permalink**) 10-18-2007, 01:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by amishrockstar

I'd agree ...
how is it then that many believers assert that the blasphemy of the H.S. is (basically) a willful rejection of the gospel?

Because a total lifelong rejection of Christ is unforgivable.

amishrockstar · #7 (**permalink**) 10-18-2007, 01:18 AM

Adoniram did reject the gospel that he grew up hearing from his father

Graham had to reject it because he knew what it was and still went another way

amishrockstar · #8 (**permalink**) 10-18-2007, 01:19 AM

alright, so you would understand blasphemy of the H.S. as a life long rejection... not something that can happen in a person's life (during a point in time before they die)?
In other words, you wouldn't see that sin as possibly being committed when someone is 39 and then they can live until they are 67; you'd see the sin as simply the result of a life lived without God?

PuritanCovenanter · #9 (**permalink**) 10-18-2007, 01:20 AM

They didn't reject it to death though. After death is judgement. (Heb 9:27) And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

PuritanCovenanter · #10 (**permalink**) 10-18-2007, 01:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by amishrockstar

alright, so you would understand blasphemy of the H.S. as a life long rejection... not something that can happen in a person's life (during a point in time before they die)?

You were defining blasphemy of the Spirit by how others defined it. I believe it can be a specific act here on earth also. It seems Jesus was speaking about a specific thing when he mentioned it. But to be honest with you it has been a doctrine I have read about with a little confusion. I do know if you die without being justified before God you have entered the Unforgiven Zone. Rejecting God, His Christ, and His Word is unpardonable after death.

amishrockstar · #11 (**permalink**) 10-18-2007, 01:26 AM

Thanks for your reply,
I've heard other people who hold to the same view that you do ... I'm still working through my own understanding of that sin. I would be curious to know how someone who believes that the 'sin' is something that can be committed particularly during a certain point in time, would answer the above questions.

PuritanCovenanter · #12 (**permalink**) 10-18-2007, 01:33 AM

(1Jn 5:16)

If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it.

Here is Calvin

Quote:

There is a sin unto death I have already said that the sin to which there is no hope of pardon left, is thus called. But it may be asked, what this is; for it must be very atrocious, when God thus so severely punishes it. It may be gathered from the context, that it is not, as they say, a partial fall, or atransgression of a single commandment, but apostasy, by which men wholly alienate themselves from God. For the Apostle afterwards adds, that the children of God do not sin, that is, that they do not forsake God, and wholly surrender themselves to Satan, to be his slaves. Such a defection, it is no wonder that it is mortal; for God never thus deprives his own people of the grace of the Spirit; but they ever retain some spark of true religion. They must then be reprobate and given up todestruction, who thus fall away so as to have no fear of God.

Were any one to ask, whether the door of salvation is closed against their repentance; the answer is obvious, that as they are given up to a reprobate mind, and are destitute of the Holy Spirit, they cannot do anything else, than with obstinate minds, become worse and worse, and add sins to sins. Moreover, as the sin and blasphemy against the Spirit ever brings with it a defection of this kind, there is no doubt but that it is here pointedout.

But it may be asked again, by what evidences can we know that a man’s fall is fatal; for except the knowledge of this was certain, in vain would the Apostle have made this exception, that they were not to pray for a sin of this kind. It is then right to determine sometimes, whether the fallen is without hope, or whether there is still a place for a remedy. This, indeed, is what I allow, and what is evident beyond dispute from this passage;but as this very seldom happens, and as God sets before us the infinite riches of his grace, and bids us to be merciful according to his own example, we ought not rashly to conclude that any one has brought on himself the judgment of eternal death; on the contrary, love should dispose us to hope well. But if the impiety of some appear to us not otherwise than hopeless, as though the Lord pointed it out by the finger, we ought not to contend with the just judgment of God, or seek to be more merciful than he is.

Iconoclast · #13 (**permalink**) 10-18-2007, 01:36 AM

They were ascribing the Lord's work to be of the power of satan,rather than the Holy Spirit. It was a specific sin.
It is not unbelief, or blasphemy per se.

PuritanCovenanter · #14 (**permalink**) 10-18-2007, 01:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iconoclast

They were ascribing the Lord's work to be of the power of satan,rather than the Holy Spirit. It was a specific sin.
It is not unbelief, or blasphemy per se.

This raises a whole new set of questions. And I will bow out for tonight.

victorbravo · #15 (**permalink**) 10-18-2007, 11:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iconoclast

They were ascribing the Lord's work to be of the power of satan,rather than the Holy Spirit. It was a specific sin.
It is not unbelief, or blasphemy per se.

I think that is right. I'm not so sure it is a kind of sin that we would see today. What I mean by that is that we cannot identify a particular "step on a crack and you're dead" sort of sin that cannot be foregiven upon faith.

I know a guy who, in a period of serious oppression and rebellion, did everything he could to try to blaspheme the Holy Spirit. It was the strangest thing, for a while he was obsessed with trying to foreclose the possibility of salvation.

But the Holy Spirit won, he was converted, and has been one of Christ's subjects for many years.

Blueridge Baptist · #16 (**permalink**) 10-18-2007, 12:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iconoclast

They were ascribing the Lord's work to be of the power of satan,rather than the Holy Spirit. It was a specific sin.
It is not unbelief, or blasphemy per se.

I agree with you. I think the blasphemy of the Holy Ghost is defined in this passage in Mark:

Mar 3:28 Verily I say unto you, All sins shall be forgiven unto the sons of men, and blasphemies wherewith soever they shall blaspheme:
Mar 3:29 But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation:
Mar 3:30 Because they said, He hath an unclean spirit.

PuritanCovenanter · #17 (**permalink**) 10-18-2007, 02:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by victorbravo

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iconoclast

They were ascribing the Lord's work to be of the power of satan,rather than the Holy Spirit. It was a specific sin.
It is not unbelief, or blasphemy per se.

I think that is right. I'm not so sure it is a kind of sin that we would see today. What I mean by that is that we cannot identify a particular "step on a crack and you're dead" sort of sin that cannot be foregiven upon faith.

I know a guy who, in a period of serious oppression and rebellion, did everything he could to try to blaspheme the Holy Spirit. It was the strangest thing, for a while he was obsessed with trying to foreclose the possibility of salvation.

But the Holy Spirit won, he was converted, and has been one of Christ's subjects for many years.

This gets kinda sticky also for other reasons. What if a Jewish man claimed he became a Christian and that the Holy Spirit has now created new life in him. And his neighbor said it was rubbish and that he was following a false deceptive spirit. Is that blasphemy of the Holy Spirit? Would that be unforgivable. Is there any chance for this man to repent and be reconciled to God?

This is a very complex issue. I do know of one thing that is unforgivable. A final rejection of Christ. When does this happen. It may vary from individual to individual. I know not when or how. I would refer you back up to the post with Calvin's Comment on 1 John 5:16.

Amazing Grace · #18 (**permalink**) 10-18-2007, 03:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blueridge Baptist

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iconoclast

They were ascribing the Lord's work to be of the power of satan,rather than the Holy Spirit. It was a specific sin.
It is not unbelief, or blasphemy per se.

I agree with you. I think the blasphemy of the Holy Ghost is defined in this passage in Mark:

Mar 3:28 Verily I say unto you, All sins shall be forgiven unto the sons of men, and blasphemies wherewith soever they shall blaspheme:
Mar 3:29 But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation:
Mar 3:30 Because they said, He hath an unclean spirit.

Amen. And since one rejects the power of the Holy SPirit, He will not apply any pardon for this sin. Its a grand subject, too vast for me to stay above... Perhaps the reprobate are all guilty of this sin. Therefore no blood is aplied to them. NO pardon, no atonement. Since we know that the elect and reprobate sin alike, tainted with Adam's sin, maybe there si something to this thought, I dont know.

Wannabee · #19 (**permalink**) 10-18-2007, 04:44 PM

Some thoughts - There seems to be an intangible line between one who truly falls away (apostate) and a backslider. On one hand we see the horror of Hebrews 6. On the other hand we see the incredible love, mercy and grace of a doting Father bringing His child to repentance in Hebrews 12.
The Pharisees had the truth, and were responsible for proclaiming that truth. But they got in the way of the truth and failed to recognize the Truth when they stared Him in the eye. And the work that Jesus did was said to come from Satan. That's blaspheme against the Holy Spirit; when His work is clear but contributed to the Father of Lies. For someone who has the truth of God and understands it to make such statement is unforgivable.
Remember the words of Hebrews 6,

4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.

Consider Owen -

Quote:

...it is a total renunciation of all the constituent principles and doctrines of Christianity. Such was the sin of them who forsook the gospel and returned to Judaism; this was accompanied by the open and public renunciation of the gospel. This is the "falling away," - a voluntary resolved relinquishment of and apostasy from the gospel, the faith, rule, and obedience thereof, which cannot be done without casting the highest reproach and contumely [1. Rudeness or contempt arising from arrogance; insolence. 2. An insolent or arrogant remark or act.] upon the Person of Christ Himself.
Abridged Commentary p.98

Archlute · #20 (**permalink**) 10-18-2007, 05:25 PM

Although the impoenitentia finalis is a common view regarding this sin, as I have been preaching through Mark's Gospel for the past several months I have come to the conclusion that the unforgivable sin spoken of there cannot be committed today. What we have here is a specific rejection of Christ's identity while upon the earth, and the signs by which the Holy Spirit testified to that as being ascribed to the work of Satan by the leaders of Israel. Jerome and Chrysostom held this view, and Dr. Kim Riddlebarger takes this position as well in his recent sermon series on Mark's Gospel (although I can no longer find some of those sermons on his blog - sorry, I would have set a link to it here otherwise).

Also, there are good reasons to see this sin in Mark, and those other sins mentioned in the epistle to the Hebrews and 1 John, as being separate issues. I have not the time to explicate here, but I may post some of the studies that I came across regarding this if I have time later on.