Are ~ALL~ things predestined according to God's own pleasure?

Dao · #1 (**permalink**) 10-06-2009, 09:49 AM

I've been reading some books on predestination and some say God is the cause of some unpleasant things and some say God had nothing to do with unpleasant things and was caused by men. While I'm dancing back and forth swimming in the sea of doctrines and getting a little sick of the waves, how am I supposed to understand that God isn't the author of everything such as 9/11, Hitler and other not so good events and at the same time understand that God is the author of such events. Seems to me that some don't understand what, how, when why God is God and fail to recognize that God is the owner of every event. Sometimes I'm embarrassed to say God does cause evil according to His own pleasure but most of my friends and family think it's a horrific thing to say. I'm caught between two views. Is there a simpler way to understand God's pleasure?

Sonny · #2 (**permalink**) 10-06-2009, 09:58 AM

God does not allow sin. Does God allow bad things to happen? Ask Job, and all other biblical men. God in my understanding does allow bad things to happen, but that does not mean God did those things. Do you want an apple or an orange? I prefer apples, I chose that apple because God allowed me to make the choice.
Now God could have made my hand go for the orange and my mind enjoy it.

God does predestined us to salvation, and allows things to take place in our life.

I could be wrong, I too get confused on this matter.

Jimmy the Greek · #3 (**permalink**) 10-06-2009, 10:00 AM

Ex. 4:11 Who gave man his mouth? Who makes him deaf or mute? Who gives him sight or makes him blind? Is it not I, the Lord?

Isa. 45:7 I form the light and create darkness, I bring prosperity and create calamity. I the Lord do all these things. (NASB)

Lam. 3:37-38 Both calamity and good things come from the Lord. (NASB) (NKJV = woe and well-being)

Megan Mozart · #4 (**permalink**) 10-06-2009, 10:05 AM

Quote:

I form light, and create darkness;
I make well-being, and create calamity;
I am the LORD, who does all these things.

Isaiah 45:7

God ordained every event that ever came to pass, including the entering of sin into the world. He can do this and not be charged with sin.

Read the WCF on this stuff. It is very helpful.

**BobVigneault** · #5 (**permalink**) 10-06-2009, 10:14 AM

The context for suffering is the intimate knowledge of God.

John 17:3 And this is eternal life, that they know you the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent.

This great truth is the purpose for God's permission of sin and suffering. I put it into a blog article a few years ago. I might change some of the language but for the most part I think it's helpful. Here is a link to the article.

I hope it helps.

OPC'n · #6 (**permalink**) 10-06-2009, 10:19 AM

According to Sproul and I think he's right, God allows sin to happen but He is not the author of sin we are. Sin comes from our own heart and God allows it to occur for His ultimate ends which, of course, is for His chief end....His glory.

carlgobelman · #7 (**permalink**) 10-06-2009, 10:26 AM

From the WCF on Providence:

Quote:

I. God the great Creator of all things does uphold,[1] direct, dispose, and govern all creatures, actions, and things,[2] from the greatest even to the least,[3] by His most wise and holy providence,[4] according to His infallible foreknowledge,[5] and the free and immutable counsel of His own will,[6] to the praise of the glory of His wisdom, power, justice, goodness, and mercy.[7]

II. Although, in relation to the foreknowledge and decree of God, the first Cause, all things come to pass immutably, and infallibly;[8] yet, by the same providence, He orders them to fall out, according to the nature of second causes, either necessarily, freely, or contingently.[9]

III. God, in His ordinary providence, makes use of means,[10] yet is free to work without,[11] above,[12] and against them,[13] at His pleasure.

IV. The almighty power, unsearchable wisdom, and infinite goodness of God so far manifest themselves in His providence, that it extends itself even to the first fall, and all other sins of angels and men;[14] and that not by a bare permission,[15] but such as has joined with it a most wise and powerful bounding,[16] and otherwise ordering, and governing of them, in a manifold dispensation, to His own holy ends;[17] yet so, as the sinfulness thereof proceeds only from the creature, and not from God, who, being most holy and righteous, neither is nor can be the author or approver of sin.[18]

V. The most wise, righteous, and gracious God does oftentimes leave, for a season, His own children to manifold temptations, and the corruption of their own hearts, to chastise them for their former sins, or to discover unto them the hidden strength of corruption and deceitfulness of their hearts, that they may be humbled;[19] and, to raise them to a more close and constant dependence for their support upon Himself, and to make them more watchful against all future occasions of sin, and for sundry other just and holy ends.[20]

VI. As for those wicked and ungodly men whom God, as a righteous Judge, for former sins, does blind and harden,[21] from them He not only withholds His grace whereby they might have been enlightened in their understandings, and wrought upon in their hearts;[22] but sometimes also withdraws the gifts which they had,[23] and exposes them to such objects as their corruption makes occasion of sin;[24] and, withal, gives them over to their own lusts, the temptations of the world, and the power of Satan,[25] whereby it comes to pass that they harden themselves, even under those means which God uses for the softening of others.[26]

VII. As the providence of God does, in general, reach to all creatures; so, after a most special manner, it takes care of His Church, and disposes all things to the good thereof.[27]

Note in particular, article IV.

Dao · #8 (**permalink**) 10-06-2009, 10:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OPC'n

According to Sproul and I think he's right, God allows sin to happen but He is not the author of sin we are. Sin comes from our own heart and God allows it to occur for His ultimate ends which, of course, is for His chief end....His glory.

I'm kind of thinking "allowing" is the same as "pull". Push is the opposite of pull. "Allowing" could be the opposite of causing. So it's still an ~action~ from our Lord. I'm not sure if the Greek and Hebrew talks in riddles but seems similar to the funny language the Chinese and Japaneses use. Maybe I need to meditate on the Word more on this subject and hope I'll go , "Aha! ha! ha!, I get it but I can't explain it to you".

carlgobelman · #9 (**permalink**) 10-06-2009, 10:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dao

Maybe I need to meditate on the Word more on this subject and hope I'll go , "Aha! ha! ha!, I get it but I can't explain it to you".

If you do get, can you explain it to me? Personally, I don't think we'll ever get it. There is an inherent tension between the poles of God's sovereignty and man's responsibility. Error comes when we try to relieve the tension in either direction.

Ask Mr. Religion · #10 (**permalink**) 10-06-2009, 10:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Megan Mozart

God ordained every event that ever came to pass, including the entering of sin into the world. He can do this and not be charged with sin.

Indeed. God wills righteously what men do wickedly.

AMR

DavidinKnoxville · #11 (**permalink**) 10-06-2009, 10:50 AM

Yes.

awretchsavedbygrace · #12 (**permalink**) 10-06-2009, 10:58 AM

Ephesians 1:11
In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of Him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

Dao · #13 (**permalink**) 10-06-2009, 11:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by carlgobelman

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dao

Maybe I need to meditate on the Word more on this subject and hope I'll go , "Aha! ha! ha!, I get it but I can't explain it to you".

If you do get, can you explain it to me? Personally, I don't think we'll ever get it. There is an inherent tension between the poles of God's sovereignty and man's responsibility. Error comes when we try to relieve the tension in either direction.

I do get that there are no other gods but God and that God does own everything including time and space. This still shows we are God's puppet and are controlled by the strings of God's continuous Wills. Some say we're not God's puppet and not controlled by the strings of anything but their own freedom of slaved free will. The funny part of all this is that God seems to play with Himself and tease Himself and make us think we're the ones questioning our actions. I'm beginning to wonder if we're focusing too much on the past and the future and not enough or any at all on the ~present~. Maybe I'm not aware.

OPC'n · #14 (**permalink**) 10-06-2009, 11:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dao

Quote:

Originally Posted by OPC'n

According to Sproul and I think he's right, God allows sin to happen but He is not the author of sin we are. Sin comes from our own heart and God allows it to occur for His ultimate ends which, of course, is for His chief end....His glory.

I'm kind of thinking "allowing" is the same as "pull". Push is the opposite of pull. "Allowing" could be the opposite of causing. So it's still an ~action~ from our Lord. I'm not sure if the Greek and Hebrew talks in riddles but seems similar to the funny language the Chinese and Japaneses use. Maybe I need to meditate on the Word more on this subject and hope I'll go , "Aha! ha! ha!, I get it but I can't explain it to you".

"Allow" can mean that God did something. For example, He allows us to breath. How does He allow us to breath? By Him directly through His power causing our lungs to function the way He intended them to function. Does He breath for us? No, He uses our lungs for His purpose of allowing us to breath. In this example your thought would be accurate. However, on the subject of sin one must rely on other Scrpture which tells us that God is sinless and that He is also sovereign. Combining those two concepts leaves you with the knowledge that God is inactive in helping you to sin but is active in keeping His hand from preventing you from sinning when you do sin for His own purpose.

Tim · #15 (**permalink**) 10-06-2009, 11:33 AM

Let us remember that there are first (primary) causes and secondary causes. The primary cause is always God. The secondary cause might be one's own desire, or the 'laws' of science. Gravity 'makes' an apple fall to the ground, but God has first ordained it from eternity past.

Dao · #16 (**permalink**) 10-06-2009, 11:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OPC'n

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dao

Quote:

Originally Posted by OPC'n

According to Sproul and I think he's right, God allows sin to happen but He is not the author of sin we are. Sin comes from our own heart and God allows it to occur for His ultimate ends which, of course, is for His chief end....His glory.

I'm kind of thinking "allowing" is the same as "pull". Push is the opposite of pull. "Allowing" could be the opposite of causing. So it's still an ~action~ from our Lord. I'm not sure if the Greek and Hebrew talks in riddles but seems similar to the funny language the Chinese and Japaneses use. Maybe I need to meditate on the Word more on this subject and hope I'll go , "Aha! ha! ha!, I get it but I can't explain it to you".

"Allow" can mean that God did something. For example, He allows us to breath. How does He allow us to breath? By Him directly through His power causing our lungs to function the way He intended them to function. Does He breath for us? No, He uses our lungs for His purpose of allowing us to breath. In this example your thought would be accurate. However, on the subject of sin one must rely on other Scrpture which tells us that God is sinless and that He is also sovereign. Combining those two concepts leaves you with the knowledge that God is inactive in helping you to sin but is active in keeping His hand from preventing you from sinning when you do sin for His own purpose.

I'm thinking that each of us has a big bubble around us or inside our own bubble and moving within the bubble in free will through our own non-spiritual human desires ~independent~ from God. After reading the replies here, it sounds like God can only move the bubble but not the human inside that bubble. It's like moving a clear transparent frog egg with the tadpole squirming inside to another pond. I can control placing the egg to another pond but I can't control the actions of the tadpole inside the egg. I affected the tadpole's future. That tadpole is either excited, frighted or upset by the movement of his own egg. I'm thinking God controls my bubble even though its against the direction of where I want to go. I think my bubble is part of me and effects everything I do and beginning to think God goes deeper and controls every action of my being.

What you said is a tough one to ponder on. So God can't touch my sin but do everything else plays tricks on my mind.

-----Added 10/6/2009 at 11:52:12 EST-----

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tim

Let us remember that there are first (primary) causes and secondary causes. The primary cause is always God. The secondary cause might be one's own desire, or the 'laws' of science. Gravity 'makes' an apple fall to the ground, but God has first ordained it from eternity past.

The toughest thing to observe is that every movement of the snowflake or raindrop is controlled according to God's desire. With the speed and accuracy of every molecule is mind boggling. So the laws of science must be the laws of God. I'm beginning to think we're all trying to divide God and place him somewhere in the present or trying to grasp hold of our Lord in any way we can. Knowing that God is eternity as past, present and future at the same time, I seems we can't grasp how God can be in two places at the same time or be formless. I think the fall of the apple includes that snapshot God made in the eternity past. So everything is a snapshot of predestination and is unfolding in the present. I still think God controls every action we do but many here say He, somewhat, has nothing to do with our "sin" and we're on our own as sinners. How is it possible that we're on our own in our untouchable sin if we were predestined?

carlgobelman · #17 (**permalink**) 10-06-2009, 12:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dao

This still shows we are God's puppet and are controlled by the strings of God's continuous Wills. Some say we're not God's puppet and not controlled by the strings of anything but their own freedom of slaved free will. The funny part of all this is that God seems to play with Himself and tease Himself and make us think we're the ones questioning our actions. I'm beginning to wonder if we're focusing too much on the past and the future and not enough or any at all on the ~present~. Maybe I'm not aware.

By saying we're God's puppets, you're drifting too far in the direction of hyper-predestination. The freedom of our wills works within the sphere of God's sovereignty. Our freedom is not a libertine freedom, but a freedom from coercion; i.e., no one "makes" me sin, I freely choose to sin and that choice to sin is done within the sphere of God's sovereignty.

cih1355 · #18 (**permalink**) 10-06-2009, 12:31 PM

Everything that happens was planned out by God. God made a plan that you would do certain things, think certain things, say certain things, and desire certain things. He also guaranteed that what He planned would come to pass.

It was even God's plan that people would sin. For example, it was God's plan that Jesus would die on the cross for His people. It was God's plan that certain people would mock Him, put a crown of thorns on His head, scourge Him, and nail His hands and feet to the cross. Even though it was God's plan that they would do such things, they are still morally responsible for their actions.

kceaster · #19 (**permalink**) 10-06-2009, 12:37 PM

The nature of second causes is key to the beginning of understanding this mystery. There are all sorts of analogies that break down, but perhaps the best way to explain it is that x happens as a direct result of y, which acted necessarily, freely, or contingently. Now x happened, from God's perspective (the first cause) immutably and infallibly; that is, x happened because God wanted it to be so. However, it was not caused directly by God, but through the nature of second causes in that it was the direct result of y acting according to his nature, or because of y's free will to sin, or because of something other acting on y.

And the way this gets so confusing is the contingently part. We can see how a second cause does something evil because of his nature and his free will to sin. But it is more difficult to see all of the second causes working together.

For instance, for Hitler to do what he did was contingent upon a vast number of second causes. First, he had to be born. 2nd, he had to have the upbringing he did. 3rd, he had to gain power. 4th, he had to have others who did not oppose him but were willing themselves to carry it out. And these are very simplistic second causes. So many things are contingent upon the simplest of events. And from our perspective, it would seem like God had to see how things would work together in order to infallibly and immutably bring all things to pass, from the greatest even to the least.

Yet we are told that all things come to pass not because God foresaw them as future, but because He wills them to be in the first place. But just because He wills them or decrees them in the first place does not do away with the nature of second causes. He establishes those things that accomplish His will by the nature of those second causes.

It is extremely difficult to understand. And I would say that no one has this understanding nailed down, especially me. But there are two things to uphold: 1) everything that happens is because God wills it, and 2) God is not the author or approver of sin. Whatever explanation we use to help it make sense to us needs to start with those two premises.

In Christ,

KC

cpomann · #20 (**permalink**) 10-06-2009, 01:53 PM

I an not eloquent, and certainly not academically advanced. I have no difficulty, however, expressing my beliefs. I take the "all things, whatsoever comes to pass" very seriously, and am content that includes the most minute detail as well as the more profound. I am happy to report that I even believe that the apple chosen over the orange was directed.

The WCF.....

CHAPTER V.

Of Providence.

I. God the great Creator of all things does uphold, direct, dispose, and govern all creatures, actions, and things, from the greatest even to the least, by His most wise and holy providence, according to His infallible foreknowledge, and the free and immutable counsel of His own will, to the praise of the glory of His wisdom, power, justice, goodness, and mercy.

Megan Mozart · #21 (**permalink**) 10-06-2009, 02:17 PM

Quote:

I do get that there are no other gods but God and that God does own everything including time and space. This still shows we are God's puppet and are controlled by the strings of God's continuous Wills. Some say we're not God's puppet and not controlled by the strings of anything but their own freedom of slaved free will. The funny part of all this is that God seems to play with Himself and tease Himself and make us think we're the ones questioning our actions. I'm beginning to wonder if we're focusing too much on the past and the future and not enough or any at all on the ~present~. Maybe I'm not aware.

It sounds like you are being influenced by mechanism, if that helps, which is not biblical. What Carl said is correct. We aren't robots that are being forced to do what we don't want to do. We make real choices. However, God ordains what those choices are.

Quote:

I'm thinking that each of us has a big bubble around us or inside our own bubble and moving within the bubble in free will through our own non-spiritual human desires ~independent~ from God. After reading the replies here, it sounds like God can only move the bubble but not the human inside that bubble. It's like moving a clear transparent frog egg with the tadpole squirming inside to another pond. I can control placing the egg to another pond but I can't control the actions of the tadpole inside the egg. I affected the tadpole's future. That tadpole is either excited, frighted or upset by the movement of his own egg. I'm thinking God controls my bubble even though its against the direction of where I want to go. I think my bubble is part of me and effects everything I do and beginning to think God goes deeper and controls every action of my being.

What you said is a tough one to ponder on. So God can't touch my sin but do everything else plays tricks on my mind.

God has ordains even our affections, decisions, etc. He hardened Pharaoh's heart: "For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "For this very purpose I raised you up, to demonstrate My power in you, and that My name might be proclaimed throughout the whole earth." 18So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires." Romans 9:17-18

He also deludes people, as said in the beginning of Acts but I can't find the passage. Does anyone know where that is?

***toddpedlar*** · #22 (**permalink**) 10-06-2009, 02:21 PM

The easiest approach to this is to look at Scripture, and specifically the two instances in the Acts wherein the most wretched act of all acts is described in very clear terms as being fully fore-ordained by God and the result of choices made by men.

See Acts 2:22-23 and 4:24-28.

Quote:

"Men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth, a man attested to you by God with mighty works and wonders and signs that God did through him in your midst, as you yourselves know-- 23 this Jesus, delivered up according to the definite plan and foreknowledge of God, you crucified and killed by the hands of lawless men. (Acts 2:22-23 ESV)

Quote:

And when they heard it, they lifted their voices together to God and said, "Sovereign Lord, who made the heaven and the earth and the sea and everything in them, 25 who through the mouth of our father David, your servant, said by the Holy Spirit, "'Why did the Gentiles rage, and the peoples plot in vain? 26 The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers were gathered together, against the Lord and against his Anointed'-- 27 for truly in this city there were gathered together against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, 28 to do whatever your hand and your plan had predestined to take place. (Acts 4:24-28 ESV)

The case needn't any more defense than this. God fully fore-ordains and decrees every single thing that has happened, that is happening and will happen. This does NOT mean we do not truly choose that which we do, or take the actions we want to. We do. Our choices are real - and yet God decreed every single one of them according to His purposes before the foundation of time.

Spinningplates2 · #23 (**permalink**) 10-06-2009, 02:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dao

I've been reading some books on predestination and some say God is the cause of some unpleasant things and some say God had nothing to do with unpleasant things and was caused by men. While I'm dancing back and forth swimming in the sea of doctrines and getting a little sick of the waves, how am I supposed to understand that God isn't the author of everything such as 9/11, Hitler and other not so good events and at the same time understand that God is the author of such events. Seems to me that some don't understand what, how, when why God is God and fail to recognize that God is the owner of every event. Sometimes I'm embarrassed to say God does cause evil according to His own pleasure but most of my friends and family think it's a horrific thing to say. I'm caught between two views. Is there a simpler way to understand God's pleasure?

What books said "God had nothing to do with unpleasant thing?" I've read a lot of books but that is a new one to me. Were they Open Theist?

Dao · #24 (**permalink**) 10-06-2009, 05:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spinningplates2

What books said "God had nothing to do with unpleasant thing?" I've read a lot of books but that is a new one to me. Were they Open Theist?

I mean common folks that don't really know what they are saying and falls under the spell of Arminian preachers and their crowds. Some of my friend would say, "God doesn't hate anyone". Some would accuse me of saying God is both evil and good. I still haven't figured out why Darth Vader would hate his own son in the Star Wars movies and love him at the same time. Sounds so dark. If God hated on of the twins as the Bible states, then I would certainly say God hated one of the twins. The main problem in the Arminian world is that they think God loves ~all~ and doesn't hate a single person and we have to take the responsibility of our own actions.
I've forgotten what Open Theist is.

ewenlin · #25 (**permalink**) 10-06-2009, 06:35 PM

I'm a calvinist and I think at the very least, I can say that God loves all. But then we'll start going into definitions and delineations, which is

.

Start with the clear and infallible. Scripture teaching a sovereign God that ordains all things. I think even logically, if God isn't sovereign, He can't be God.

Anyway, continue searching and studying. May God lead you to greater truths of Himself.

kceaster · #26 (**permalink**) 10-07-2009, 10:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dao

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spinningplates2

What books said "God had nothing to do with unpleasant thing?" I've read a lot of books but that is a new one to me. Were they Open Theist?

I mean common folks that don't really know what they are saying and falls under the spell of Arminian preachers and their crowds. Some of my friend would say, "God doesn't hate anyone". Some would accuse me of saying God is both evil and good. I still haven't figured out why Darth Vader would hate his own son in the Star Wars movies and love him at the same time. Sounds so dark. If God hated on of the twins as the Bible states, then I would certainly say God hated one of the twins. The main problem in the Arminian world is that they think God loves ~all~ and doesn't hate a single person and we have to take the responsibility of our own actions.
I've forgotten what Open Theist is.

The open theist believes that God has determined some things, but has left other things open. IOW, God has nothing to do with, and could be surprised that bad things happen to good people. This is put forward as the "protection" of God's character so that evil could never be laid at His feet. The main problem with this is if God doesn't know what is going to happen, and something ill befalls me, how do I ever trust that He will intervene for me the next time? So, although they try to comfort people with this language, it is disconcerting that God would be powerless at times and powerful at others.

In Christ,

KC