See the top rated post in this thread. Click here

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 40 of 56

Defending the Faith discuss Why don't we kill those who break the Sabbath today? in the Apologetics Forum forums; This question was posed to me by my atheist cousin today. What do you all have to say on this?...

  1. #1
    Bookmeister's Avatar
    Bookmeister is offline. Puritanboard Freshman
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Posts
    441

    Why don't we kill those who break the Sabbath today?

    This question was posed to me by my atheist cousin today. What do you all have to say on this?
    Alan
    Seminarian, RTS Jackson, MS
    Currently residing in Kerkhoven, MN
    Evangelical Free via URC via PCA via OPC
    Joining Kerkhoven Evangelical Free Church soon.

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Posts
    7,248
    Blog Entries
    1
    "Is this not a brand plucked from the fire?” - Zechariah 3:2

    James Helbert, Wytheville, VA
    Providence Reformed Presbyterian Church, RPCUS

    GraceAndLaw.net / The Edinburgh Inn


    Click to get: Board Rules -- Signature Requirements -- Suggestions?

  3. #3
    wraezor's Avatar
    wraezor is offline. Puritanboard Freshman
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Posts
    35
    Who's "we"?
    Jordan Dohms
    Shelter Reformed Presbyterian Church (RPCNA)
    Ruling Elder
    Edmonton, Canada

  4. #4
    seajayrice's Avatar
    seajayrice is offline. Puritanboard Sophomore
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Posts
    765
    I think I would respond, "Why would we do that?"
    CJ Rice
    Member Christ RPCNA
    East Providence, RI
    Rom 12:2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

  5. #5
    FenderPriest's Avatar
    FenderPriest is offline. Puritanboard Junior
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Posts
    1,278
    Jesus...
    Jacob
    Sovereign Grace Ministries
    Pastoral Intern
    King of Grace Church
    Manchester, NH

    "Grace renews nature; glory perfects grace." ~ John Owen
    "Grace tried is better than grace, and more than grace. It is glory in its infancy." ~ John Flavel
    A Living Oak - Growing In Christ (blog)
    1 member(s) found this post helpful.

  6. #6
    SolaScriptura's Avatar
    SolaScriptura is offline. Puritanboard Softy
    Join Date
    Oct 2003
    Posts
    7,254
    Because we aren't a theocracy.
    Ben
    Chaplain, US Army
    Stuttgart, Germany
    TE Potomac Presbytery, PCA
    www.thebenaddiction.com

    "Whenever I'm about to do something, I think, 'would an idiot do that?' And if they would, I do not do that thing." -- Dwight Schrute

    "I've been so thoroughly trained that I don't even need to think before I speak." -- Harry Crumb

  7. #7
    NaphtaliPress's Avatar
    NaphtaliPress is offline. Administrator
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Posts
    18,186
    Blog Entries
    22
    "But we conceive, the whole bulk of the judiciall Laww, as judiciall, and as it concerned the Republick of the Iews only, is abolished, though the morall equity of all those be not abolished; also some punishments were meerly Symbolicall, to teach the detestation of such a vice, as the boaring with the Aule the ear of him that loved his Master, and desired still to serve him, and the making of him his perpetuall servant. I should think the punishing with death the man that gathered sticks on the Sabbath was such...." Samuel Rutherford, The Divine Right of Church Government and Excommunication (London: 1646) cap. XXII Q. 18., p. 493.
    Chris Coldwell, Lakewood Presbyterian Church (PCA), Dallas, Texas.
    • Naphtali Press: Presbyterian & Reformed Books
    • Westminster Letter Press
    The Confessional Presbyterian Journal
    The Blue Banner Archive
    Calvin in the Hands of the Philistines: Did Calvin Bowl on the Sabbath?
    The Regulative Principle: The Scriptures are the “only infallible rule of faith and practice, no rite or ceremony ought to have a place in the public worship of God, which is not warranted in Scripture, either by direct precept or example, or by good and sufficient inference” (Samuel Miller).
    Click to get: Board Rules -- Signature Requirements -- Joining PB's Politics & Government Forum
    4 member(s) found this post helpful.

  8. #8
    Zach is offline. Puritanboard Junior
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Posts
    1,822
    Quote Originally Posted by SolaScriptura View Post
    Because we aren't a theocracy.
    I agree. The Sabbath is a universal moral law, but the command to kill those who break it is a political law for the State of Israel.
    Zach
    Inactive PuritanBoard Member
    Member of the OPC
    3 member(s) found this post helpful.

  9. #9
    InSlaveryToChrist's Avatar
    InSlaveryToChrist is offline now. Puritanboard Junior
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Posts
    1,451
    Blog Entries
    1
    Quote Originally Posted by NaphtaliPress View Post
    "But we conceive, the whole bulk of the judiciall Laww, as judiciall, and as it concerned the Republick of the Iews only, is abolished, though the morall equity of all those be not abolished; also some punishments were meerly Symbolicall, to teach the detestation of such a vice, as the boaring with the Aule the ear of him that loved his Master, and desired still to serve him, and the making of him his perpetuall servant. I should think the punishing with death the man that gathered sticks on the Sabbath was such...." Samuel Rutherford, The Divine Right of Church Government and Excommunication (London: 1646) cap. XXII Q. 18., p. 493.
    Why would Rutherford think punishing with death the man that gathered sticks on the Sabbath was merely symbolical? Wasn't that a clear violation of God's law? In my mind, the boaring with the Aule the ear of the servant to the door of his master's house is completely different from this violation of Sabbath. I wouldn't even consider it a punishment, but rather a serious, yet loving reminder from God to the servant of the conditions of the "contract" he is signing by deciding to stay with his master.
    Samuel
    Without a church
    Lahti, Finland

    "To doubt God's mercy because our faith is feeble, is rather to rely upon our faith than upon the Lord. It is not the excellency and great measure of faith that makes us righteous before God, but Christ whom faith does receive and apprehend: which a weak faith can do as well as the strongest." ~John Ball (Puritan)
    1 member(s) found this post helpful.

  10. #10
    Peairtach's Avatar
    Peairtach is offline. Puritanboard Doctor
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Posts
    6,408
    In Numbers 15 we are taught that the death penalty under the Old Covenant was for all those who were deemed to have been proven by the evidence of two or three witnesses to have sinned so presumptiously against the 10C that they were denied an animal sacrifice in lieu of their lives.

    By this occasional means of excommunication through execution from the Land of Promise, in the penal system of the childhood Kingdom of God, the Israelites were taught about God's wrath and the vital importance of substitutionary penal sacrifice.

    The New Covenant Israel has the teaching that without Christ's sacrifice we will die eternally. There is also excommunication for presumptious offences.

    As a childhood Church and childhood Kingdom of God, the Israelites were taught about God's preceptive will by the moral law, about God's wrath by the penal law of God's childhood Kingdom, and about God's grace through the ceremonial law, particularly the sacrificial system.

    In the New Testament we are no longer under such a childhood, childish and carnal system. The moral law abides, however, and any general moral equity that is expressed throughout Moses' law.

    For a Christian state to impose the death penalty for Sabbath-breaking merely because it was part of Mosaic law would be a return to Mosaic shadows and an obscuring of the Gospel message. The Lord doesn't want us to fear the death penalty by the US or British government for Sabbath-breaking, but to fear His eternal death penalty for it.

    The death penalty for murder has its own separate foundation to Numbers 15, in Genesis 9.
    Last edited by Peairtach; 12-09-2011 at 06:12 PM.
    Richard Tallach
    communicant member,
    Knox Free Church,
    Perth, Scotland GB

    His Name forever shall endure;
    last like the sun it shall:
    Men shall be blessed in Him,
    and blessed all nations shall Him call (Ps. 72:17)
    3 member(s) found this post helpful.

  11. #11
    Backwoods Presbyterian's Avatar
    Backwoods Presbyterian is offline now. Puritanboard Doctor
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Posts
    17,117
    Blog Entries
    2
    Furthermore, this case shows us in general that the magistracy is appointed no less for the maintenance of the First Table, than the Second; so that, if they inflict punishment upon murder, adultery, and theft, they should also vindicate the worship of God: for it is to be observed that the man was not stoned by a mere unreflecting impulse, but by the direct command of God. They knew, indeed, what he had deserved before God’s tribunal; but, since no political law had been given on this head, Moses was unwilling to come to any decision except by the authority of God.
    John Calvin on Numbers 15:32
    Rev. Benjamin P. Glaser, M. Div, ARP
    Pastor, Ellisville Presbyterian Church, ARP
    Ellisville, Mississippi

    ‎‎"Ministers of the Gospel, when dispensing the truths of God, must preach home to their own souls, as well as unto others. Sir's, we do not deliver truths or doctrines to you, wherein we ourselves have no manner of concern. No, our own souls are at the stake, and shall either perish or be saved eternally, as we receive or reject these precious truths which we deliver unto you. And truly, it can never be expected that we will apply the truths of God with any warmth or liveliness unto others, unless we first make a warm application thereof to our own souls. And if we do not feed upon these doctrines, and practise these duties, which we deliver to and inculcate upon you, though we preach unto others, we ourselves are but castaways." -- Ebenezer Erskine, "The Assurance of Faith", pg. 8

    Deo Vindice
    2 member(s) found this post helpful.

  12. #12
    louis_jp's Avatar
    louis_jp is offline. Puritanboard Freshman
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Posts
    449
    Quote Originally Posted by InSlaveryToChrist View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by NaphtaliPress View Post
    "But we conceive, the whole bulk of the judiciall Laww, as judiciall, and as it concerned the Republick of the Iews only, is abolished, though the morall equity of all those be not abolished; also some punishments were meerly Symbolicall, to teach the detestation of such a vice, as the boaring with the Aule the ear of him that loved his Master, and desired still to serve him, and the making of him his perpetuall servant. I should think the punishing with death the man that gathered sticks on the Sabbath was such...." Samuel Rutherford, The Divine Right of Church Government and Excommunication (London: 1646) cap. XXII Q. 18., p. 493.
    Why would Rutherford think punishing with death the man that gathered sticks on the Sabbath was merely symbolical? Wasn't that a clear violation of God's law? In my mind, the boaring with the Aule the ear of the servant to the door of his master's house is completely different from this violation of Sabbath. I wouldn't even consider it a punishment, but rather a serious, yet loving reminder from God to the servant of the conditions of the "contract" he is signing by deciding to stay with his master.
    I think they make a distinction between the moral (and therefore enduring) part of the law, and the purely judicial aspect, which was done away with. Punishments attaching to crimes are part of the judicial aspect. (See WCF 19.4).

    Also see here: http://www.westminsterconfession.org...ral-equity.php

    From the article, citing Beza:

    "When the political laws of Moses embody natural equity, which rises above the special circumstances of one nation, to that extent they are binding. But though the magistrate may learn much from the Mosaic law because of the natural equity in it, he is at liberty to depart from such things as the Mosaic penal sanctions when the circumstances of his society dictate. The Mosaic penal sanctions are not permanent obligations. "Although we do not hold to the forms of the Mosaic polity, yet when such judicial laws prescribe equity in judgments, which is part of the decalogue, we, not being under obligation to them insofar as they were prescribed by Moses to only one people, are nevertheless bound to observe them to the extent that they embrace that general equity which should everywhere be in force. . . . . The Lord commands that a deposit be returned, and that thieves be punished. . . . . Because it follows natural equity, and expounds that perpetual precept of the decalogue, Thou shalt not steal, to this extent all are bound to fulfill them both. The thief is sentenced to make restitution for the theft, sometimes twice as much, sometimes four times as much . . . . . This penalty is purely political, and it binds the one nation of the Israelites, to whom alone it was adapted. Therefore it is permitted for the magistrate, in his exercise of sovereignty and for definite and good causes, to prescribe a more severe manner of punishment . . . . . And to be sure, if anyone compares several of the laws of the Greeks, and many of the laws of the Romans, with the Mosaic, he will find a similarity among them in establishing penalties, so that it is sufficiently plain that all were adapted to the same goal of natural equity."
    Louis DiBiase
    Midlane park, ARPC
    Louisville, KY

  13. #13
    AustinW is offline. Puritanboard Postgraduate
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Posts
    4,197
    You mean y'all don't?
    2 member(s) found this post helpful.

  14. #14
    raekwon's Avatar
    raekwon is offline. Puritanboard Junior
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Posts
    1,892
    We'd all be dead.
    Rae W. | Ruling Elder @ Grace Central Presbyterian Church (PCA) | Columbus, OH
    Vintage73
    2 member(s) found this post helpful.

  15. #15
    ChristianTrader is offline. Puritanboard Graduate
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Posts
    3,285
    Quote Originally Posted by raekwon View Post
    We'd all be dead.
    Was all of Israel killed for breaking the Sabbath?

    CT
    Hermonta Godwin
    Raleigh, NC
    1 member(s) found this post helpful.

  16. #16
    Weston Stoler's Avatar
    Weston Stoler is offline. Puritanboard Sophomore
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Posts
    725
    All I could see was "why don't we kill those who break the sabbath"
    I was thinking of 99.9 percent of the population being killed by PB members......
    Only the death of Christ can free us from our own depravity!
    Weston Stoler
    Presbyterian (PCA!)
    Decatur, Alabama

  17. #17
    Pergamum's Avatar
    Pergamum is offline. Ordinary Guy (TM)
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Posts
    15,010



    John Frame has noted that the New Testament church "fulfills the Old Testament theocracy" (Barker 1990, 95). In applying the Old Testament laws to the church, Paul did not apply them exactly as they were applied in the Old Testament. For instance, In 1 Corinthians 5:1-13, Paul addresses a situation where a man is living with his father's wife. According to Old Testament law, the man and the woman should receive capital punishment (Leviticus 20:10). However, this was not recommended by Paul. Rather, the proper punishment of this crime for Paul is excommunication (vv. 2, 13). Furthermore, Paul's statement in verse 13 is a quotation of a formula found in Mosaic penal sanctions (Deut. 17:7, 12; 12:19; 19:21, 21:21; 22:21, 24: 24:7).
    Theonomy


    and


    Dennis Johnson has noted that "in the Deuteronomy contexts this formula, whenever it appears, refers to the execution of those deeds 'worthy of death': idolatry, contempt for judges, false witness, persistent rebellion towards parents, adultery, and kidnapping" (Barker 1990, 181). These crimes were to be punished by purging the offender from the covenant community through his execution. Johnson continues, "Paul applies the same terminology to the new covenant community's judging/purging act of excommunication-- a judgment that is both more severe (since it is 'handing this man over to Satan,' an anticipation of the final judgment), and more gracious (since it envisions a saving outcome to the temporal exercise of church discipline, which may bring about repentance that will lead to rescue from eternal judgment)" (Barker 1990, 181-182). Therefore, it may be safely said that the proper application of those capital offenses of the Mosaic law are properly applied in the church today as excommunication.

    Pergamum


    "If a commission by an earthly king is considered a honor, how can a commission by a Heavenly King be considered a sacrifice?"
    -- David Livingstone
    2 member(s) found this post helpful.

  18. #18
    TimV's Avatar
    TimV is offline. Puritanboard Botanist
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Posts
    8,198
    John Frame has noted that the New Testament church "fulfills the Old Testament theocracy" (Barker 1990, 95). In applying the Old Testament laws to the church, Paul did not apply them exactly as they were applied in the Old Testament. For instance, In 1 Corinthians 5:1-13, Paul addresses a situation where a man is living with his father's wife. According to Old Testament law, the man and the woman should receive capital punishment (Leviticus 20:10). However, this was not recommended by Paul. Rather, the proper punishment of this crime for Paul is excommunication
    That's missing the point, since Paul was just some citizen. He had no more authority to tell another bunch of citizens to take the law into their own hands than we do today. Imagine! Telling a small church in Alabama to take money out of the bank account of a thief!!
    Tim Vaughan
    Member, Redeemer Presbyterian, OPC,
    Santa Maria
    California
    1 member(s) found this post helpful.

  19. #19
    gordo's Avatar
    gordo is offline. Puritanboard Freshman
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Posts
    220
    Quote Originally Posted by raekwon View Post
    We'd all be dead.
    indeed.
    Gord
    SCB
    Canada
    1 member(s) found this post helpful.

  20. #20
    Skyler's Avatar
    Skyler is offline. Puritanboard Graduate
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Posts
    3,792
    Quote Originally Posted by Bookmeister View Post
    This question was posed to me by my atheist cousin today. What do you all have to say on this?
    Because our country is more concerned about babies than evildoers.

    I might also ask if he has a problem with killing sabbath-breakers.
    Jonathan
    Reformed Baptist
    Ohio

    My blog: Middle of the Narrow Way

  21. #21
    KMK's Avatar
    KMK
    KMK is offline. Moderator
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Posts
    12,487
    Shouldn't the question be, "Why is it not a capital crime to break the Sabbath?" The word 'kill' implies a violation of the 6th Commandment which is the contradiction the atheist is probably looking for.


    Village Community Church of Wrightwood

    Transformation Ministries

    "Preparing a sermon is like cooking a meal. You need pots and pans and utensils, but you don't bring them out to the table where people are eating." Derek Thomas


    Click to get: Board Rules -- Signature Requirements -- Suggestions?
    5 member(s) found this post helpful.

  22. #22
    TimV's Avatar
    TimV is offline. Puritanboard Botanist
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Posts
    8,198
    If Sabbath keeping as defined by some here is moral then if there's ambiguity in our understanding of Scripture, then the obvious recourse is to natural law, right? So it's easy. What's been the penalty for Sabbath breaking in Japan, the Roman empire, the Zulus under Chaka, the Aztecs, Vikings, modern Chinese and us today??? Or not??
    Tim Vaughan
    Member, Redeemer Presbyterian, OPC,
    Santa Maria
    California

  23. #23
    Peairtach's Avatar
    Peairtach is offline. Puritanboard Doctor
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Posts
    6,408
    If Sabbath keeping as defined by some here is moral then if there's ambiguity in our understanding of Scripture, then the obvious recourse is to natural law, right? So it's easy. What's been the penalty for Sabbath breaking in Japan, the Roman empire, the Zulus under Chaka, the Aztecs, Vikings, modern Chinese and us today??? Or not??
    Our recourse should be to the general moral equity of the Mosaic law as the WCF says, whereas theonomists want the specific reapplication of the Mosaic law.
    Richard Tallach
    communicant member,
    Knox Free Church,
    Perth, Scotland GB

    His Name forever shall endure;
    last like the sun it shall:
    Men shall be blessed in Him,
    and blessed all nations shall Him call (Ps. 72:17)

  24. #24
    TimV's Avatar
    TimV is offline. Puritanboard Botanist
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Posts
    8,198
    Our recourse should be to the general moral equity of the Mosaic law as the WCF says, whereas theonomists want the specific reapplication of the Mosaic law.
    What did theonomy have to do with my post? Besides, you're wrong. Rushdoony went out for lunch every Sunday after church, as did the rest of our church.
    Tim Vaughan
    Member, Redeemer Presbyterian, OPC,
    Santa Maria
    California
    2 member(s) found this post helpful.

  25. #25
    Skyler's Avatar
    Skyler is offline. Puritanboard Graduate
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Posts
    3,792
    Quote Originally Posted by Peairtach View Post
    If Sabbath keeping as defined by some here is moral then if there's ambiguity in our understanding of Scripture, then the obvious recourse is to natural law, right? So it's easy. What's been the penalty for Sabbath breaking in Japan, the Roman empire, the Zulus under Chaka, the Aztecs, Vikings, modern Chinese and us today??? Or not??
    Our recourse should be to the general moral equity of the Mosaic law as the WCF says, whereas theonomists want the specific reapplication of the Mosaic law.
    I consider myself a theonomist and I don't want the specific reapplication of the Mosaic law. I just consider the punitive measures in the Law to be part of the general moral equity thereof.
    Jonathan
    Reformed Baptist
    Ohio

    My blog: Middle of the Narrow Way
    2 member(s) found this post helpful.

  26. #26
    RobertPGH1981's Avatar
    RobertPGH1981 is offline. Puritanboard Freshman
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Posts
    263
    The Old Covenant (Moses on Sinai) is replaced by a new covenant in Christ (Luke 22:20; 1 Cor 11:25; 2 Cor 3:6). So the "Old Covenant" was intended to restrain the sins of the people and to point them to the future messiah (Jesus). When Jesus fulfilled the law in our place he took away the Mosaic covenant (Old Testament), and placed us under the covenant of grace.

    Just so you know I treat the Sabbath part of the Mosaic covenant. So you have the Mosaic Law and the Moral law and I consider the Sabbath part of the Mosaic law. In Genesis God created everything in 7 days and the 7th day God rested. The Sabbath is meant so believers can have a day of rest, that is resting and mediating on Gods word and goodness (i.e. What he accomplished for us on Calvary: Present Day; and what God will accomplish for prior believers: past). So it was created to point all believers to rest in Christ, which is something we should do every day. I still set Sunday apart from the rest of the days as a day that is holy, but I do not go as far to not work, go out to eat, go grocery shopping ect.. I set aside time to attend church, bible study, and personal study on my own.
    Robert
    Church Member - http://3riversgrace.org/
    Southern Baptist Convention - London Baptist Confessions of 1689
    Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania
    3 member(s) found this post helpful.

  27. #27
    KMK's Avatar
    KMK
    KMK is offline. Moderator
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Posts
    12,487
    Quote Originally Posted by RobertPGH1981 View Post
    The Old Covenant (Moses on Sinai) is replaced by a new covenant in Christ (Luke 22:20; 1 Cor 11:25; 2 Cor 3:6). So the "Old Covenant" was intended to restrain the sins of the people and to point them to the future messiah (Jesus). When Jesus fulfilled the law in our place he took away the Mosaic covenant (Old Testament), and placed us under the covenant of grace.

    Just so you know I treat the Sabbath part of the Mosaic covenant. So you have the Mosaic Law and the Moral law and I consider the Sabbath part of the Mosaic law. In Genesis God created everything in 7 days and the 7th day God rested. The Sabbath is meant so believers can have a day of rest, that is resting and mediating on Gods word and goodness (i.e. What he accomplished for us on Calvary: Present Day; and what God will accomplish for prior believers: past). So it was created to point all believers to rest in Christ, which is something we should do every day. I still set Sunday apart from the rest of the days as a day that is holy, but I do not go as far to not work, go out to eat, go grocery shopping ect.. I set aside time to attend church, bible study, and personal study on my own.
    Are you advocating a position contrary to this?

    LBC 22 Paragraph 8. The sabbath is then kept holy unto the Lord, when men, after a due preparing of their hearts, and ordering their common affairs aforehand, do not only observe a holy rest all day, from their own works, words and thoughts, about their worldly employment and recreations,30 but are also taken up the whole time in the public and private exercises of his worship, and in the duties of necessity and mercy.31


    Village Community Church of Wrightwood

    Transformation Ministries

    "Preparing a sermon is like cooking a meal. You need pots and pans and utensils, but you don't bring them out to the table where people are eating." Derek Thomas


    Click to get: Board Rules -- Signature Requirements -- Suggestions?

  28. #28
    JP Wallace's Avatar
    JP Wallace is offline. Moderator
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Posts
    552
    Quote Originally Posted by RobertPGH1981 View Post
    I still set Sunday apart from the rest of the days as a day that is holy, but I do not go as far to not work, go out to eat, go grocery shopping ect.. I set aside time to attend church, bible study, and personal study on my own.
    Could you clarify? Are you saying you do set Sunday aside as holy, but think that you can do so even while you work, go out to eat and shop? It could be you mean you don't do those things, I'm not sure the way you've written it.

    If so, how actually are you setting apart Sunday as holy at all? The only thing that appears to be different is that you attend church, since you should be engaging in Bible study and personal study on your own most days anyway.
    Paul Wallace
    RPCI
    Northern Ireland


    Click to get: Board Rules -- Signature Requirements -- Suggestions?

  29. #29
    Zach is offline. Puritanboard Junior
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Posts
    1,822
    Quote Originally Posted by RobertPGH1981 View Post
    The Old Covenant (Moses on Sinai) is replaced by a new covenant in Christ (Luke 22:20; 1 Cor 11:25; 2 Cor 3:6). So the "Old Covenant" was intended to restrain the sins of the people and to point them to the future messiah (Jesus). When Jesus fulfilled the law in our place he took away the Mosaic covenant (Old Testament), and placed us under the covenant of grace.

    Just so you know I treat the Sabbath part of the Mosaic covenant. So you have the Mosaic Law and the Moral law and I consider the Sabbath part of the Mosaic law. In Genesis God created everything in 7 days and the 7th day God rested. The Sabbath is meant so believers can have a day of rest, that is resting and mediating on Gods word and goodness (i.e. What he accomplished for us on Calvary: Present Day; and what God will accomplish for prior believers: past). So it was created to point all believers to rest in Christ, which is something we should do every day. I still set Sunday apart from the rest of the days as a day that is holy, but I do not go as far to not work, go out to eat, go grocery shopping ect.. I set aside time to attend church, bible study, and personal study on my own.
    Robert, that is a position I held to. Even when I joined this board I put in my "About Me" that I took exception to the Confession of Faith's teaching on the subject. The more I personally studied the topic of the Sabbath the more convicted I was that I wasn't keeping it; particularly in the area of pursuing my own recreations. Keeping the Sabbath is a Moral Law. Did, "You Shall not Murder," pass away with the coming of Christ?

    I would really recommend Joseph Pipa's book The Lord's Day and Isaiah 58 and search the scriptures for what keeping the Sabbath day Holy looks like. When I did it, I was convicted of my sin of failing to keep the Sabbath. I can honestly say since then, keeping the Sabbath day holy is far more enjoyable than doing my homework, running errands, or even watching our beloved Pixburgh Stillers.
    Zach
    Inactive PuritanBoard Member
    Member of the OPC

  30. #30
    RobertPGH1981's Avatar
    RobertPGH1981 is offline. Puritanboard Freshman
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Posts
    263
    Quote Originally Posted by KMK View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by RobertPGH1981 View Post
    The Old Covenant (Moses on Sinai) is replaced by a new covenant in Christ (Luke 22:20; 1 Cor 11:25; 2 Cor 3:6). So the "Old Covenant" was intended to restrain the sins of the people and to point them to the future messiah (Jesus). When Jesus fulfilled the law in our place he took away the Mosaic covenant (Old Testament), and placed us under the covenant of grace.

    Just so you know I treat the Sabbath part of the Mosaic covenant. So you have the Mosaic Law and the Moral law and I consider the Sabbath part of the Mosaic law. In Genesis God created everything in 7 days and the 7th day God rested. The Sabbath is meant so believers can have a day of rest, that is resting and mediating on Gods word and goodness (i.e. What he accomplished for us on Calvary: Present Day; and what God will accomplish for prior believers: past). So it was created to point all believers to rest in Christ, which is something we should do every day. I still set Sunday apart from the rest of the days as a day that is holy, but I do not go as far to not work, go out to eat, go grocery shopping ect.. I set aside time to attend church, bible study, and personal study on my own.
    Are you advocating a position contrary to this?

    LBC 22 Paragraph 8. The sabbath is then kept holy unto the Lord, when men, after a due preparing of their hearts, and ordering their common affairs aforehand, do not only observe a holy rest all day, from their own works, words and thoughts, about their worldly employment and recreations,30 but are also taken up the whole time in the public and private exercises of his worship, and in the duties of necessity and mercy.31
    I do not follow everything written in the LBC exactly as written. Only reason is because I feel that the Sabbath was initially intended to point to Christ and resting in Christ. By placing rules and regulations on something, such as the sabbath, places individuals under the law (i.e. you can do this but you can't do that). In Mark 2:27 Jesus says, "The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath. " He says this in response to the Pharisees criticizing his disciples for picking wheat in a field on the sabbath. So we are supposed to keep the sabbath set apart than other days, but we are not supposed to burden ourselves with rules and regulations placing us under the law.

    ---------- Post added at 05:05 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:57 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by JP Wallace View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by RobertPGH1981 View Post
    I still set Sunday apart from the rest of the days as a day that is holy, but I do not go as far to not work, go out to eat, go grocery shopping ect.. I set aside time to attend church, bible study, and personal study on my own.
    Could you clarify? Are you saying you do set Sunday aside as holy, but think that you can do so even while you work, go out to eat and shop? It could be you mean you don't do those things, I'm not sure the way you've written it.

    If so, how actually are you setting apart Sunday as holy at all? The only thing that appears to be different is that you attend church, since you should be engaging in Bible study and personal study on your own most days anyway.
    I do personal Study and Bible study on Sunday, and during the week I am restricted to personal study (except early Tuesday mornings when me and my pastor meet for coffee). The reason is because I work a full time job, and I am pursuing an MBA so I do not have a lot of time during the week. It's holy in the sense that I am attending church, setting aside time for a longer duration of study time, and attend a group bible study. I do not work on the Job Sundays, and all the chores done around the house (laundry, cleaning and most of the time grocery shopping) are done on Saturday. Although there are weeks when I help people move, or help out in a ministry when I am forced to grocery shop on Sunday.

    ---------- Post added at 05:09 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:05 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Zach View Post
    Keeping the Sabbath is a Moral Law. Did, "You Shall not Murder," pass away with the coming of Christ?
    Wouldn't the Sabbath mean resting in the works and righteousness of Christ, opposed to resting on a specific day? That's why I consider it mosaic law vs. Moral. Murder on the other hand is moral for obvious reasons. Although I will take you up on reading into this subject because if I am wrong then I am sure God would lead me into that direction.
    Last edited by RobertPGH1981; 12-10-2011 at 04:47 PM.
    Robert
    Church Member - http://3riversgrace.org/
    Southern Baptist Convention - London Baptist Confessions of 1689
    Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania
    3 member(s) found this post helpful.

  31. #31
    Zach is offline. Puritanboard Junior
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Posts
    1,822
    “Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days you shall labor, and do all your work, but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the LORD your God. On it you shall not do any work, you, or your son, or your daughter, your male servant, or your female servant, or your livestock, or the sojourner who is within your gates. For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested on the seventh day. Therefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy “Honor your father and your mother, that your days may be long in the land that the LORD your God is giving you." (Exodus 20:8-12 ESV)

    and

    “If you turn back your foot from the Sabbath,
    from doing your pleasure on my holy day,
    and call the Sabbath a delight
    and the holy day of the LORD honorable;
    if you honor it, not going your own ways,
    or seeking your own pleasure, or talking idly;
    then you shall take delight in the LORD,
    and I will make you ride on the heights of the earth;
    I will feed you with the heritage of Jacob your father,
    for the mouth of the LORD has spoken.”
    (Isaiah 58:13-14 ESV)

    These are the two key texts in my understanding of the Sabbath. In the first, from the Ten Commandments, we see the Universal Moral Law of Sabbath keeping which continues to this day. It is a call to keep the day holy. In Isaiah 58 we see examples of how Israel was not keeping the day holy. What is amazing though, and I experienced this when I began to try to keep the Sabbath, when we keep the Sabbath holy, resting in Christ, we will begin to take delight in the Lord. Like I said, I now have learned to love the Sabbath day far more than I enjoy doing my homework, errands, or football. Seriously brother, I can't recommend enough Dr. Pipa's book.
    Zach
    Inactive PuritanBoard Member
    Member of the OPC

  32. #32
    RobertPGH1981's Avatar
    RobertPGH1981 is offline. Puritanboard Freshman
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Posts
    263
    Quote Originally Posted by Zach View Post
    These are the two key texts in my understanding of the Sabbath. In the first, from the Ten Commandments, we see the Universal Moral Law of Sabbath keeping which continues to this day. It is a call to keep the day holy. In Isaiah 58 we see examples of how Israel was not keeping the day holy. What is amazing though, and I experienced this when I began to try to keep the Sabbath, when we keep the Sabbath holy, resting in Christ, we will begin to take delight in the Lord. Like I said, I now have learned to love the Sabbath day far more than I enjoy doing my homework, errands, or football. Seriously brother, I can't recommend enough Dr. Pipa's book.
    You see this isn't my stance alone, my church as a whole conforms to what I said above. A few months ago this topic was brought up and my church was split on it completely. I will need to follow up with my pastor to better understand how he views this topic because he will obviously have more insight than me. But on a different note, I will definitely need to read the book you mentioned above.
    Robert
    Church Member - http://3riversgrace.org/
    Southern Baptist Convention - London Baptist Confessions of 1689
    Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania
    1 member(s) found this post helpful.

  33. #33
    rbcbob's Avatar
    rbcbob is offline. Puritanboard Graduate
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Posts
    3,643
    MODERATOR'S WARNING; Beware that your comments appear to be contra confessional.

    LBC 22:8. The sabbath is then kept holy unto the Lord, when men, after a due preparing of their hearts, and ordering their common affairs aforehand, do not only observe an holy rest all day, from their own works, words and thoughts, about their worldly employment and recreations, but are also taken up the whole time in the public and private exercises of his worship, and in the duties of necessity and mercy


    Quote Originally Posted by RobertPGH1981 View Post
    You see this isn't my stance alone, my church as a whole conforms to what I said above. A few months ago this topic was brought up and my church was split on it completely. I will need to follow up with my pastor to better understand how he views this topic because he will obviously have more insight than me. But on a different note, I will definitely need to read the book you mentioned above
    Bob, RBC Louisville. 1689 LBCF

    Forum Rules - Signature Requirements
    2 member(s) found this post helpful.

  34. #34
    MarieP's Avatar
    MarieP is offline. Puritanboard Senior
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Posts
    2,247
    Quote Originally Posted by RobertPGH1981 View Post
    By placing rules and regulations on something, such as the sabbath, places individuals under the law (i.e. you can do this but you can't do that).
    The New Covenant has rules and regulations too...

    Quote Originally Posted by RobertPGH1981 View Post
    but we are not supposed to burden ourselves with rules and regulations placing us under the law.
    I believe the context of that is the ceremonial law. I believe there were aspects of the Old Covenant Sabbath that were ceremonial (first off, the day was changed from Saturday to Sunday), but the command to rest from our labors one day in seven is moral- it is woven into the very fabric of creation itself!

    Quote Originally Posted by RobertPGH1981 View Post
    Wouldn't the Sabbath mean resting in the works and righteousness of Christ
    Our Old Covenant counterparts were told to trust in God alone and not in their own strength and self-righteousness. And yet God gave them a Sabbath...
    MarieP
    Reformed Baptist Church
    Louisville, KY

    "I am not worthy of the least of all the mercies and of all the truth which You have shown Your servant" (Gen. 32:10)

  35. #35
    RobertPGH1981's Avatar
    RobertPGH1981 is offline. Puritanboard Freshman
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Posts
    263
    Quote Originally Posted by rbcbob View Post
    MODERATOR'S WARNING; Beware that your comments appear to be contra confessional.

    LBC 22:8. The sabbath is then kept holy unto the Lord, when men, after a due preparing of their hearts, and ordering their common affairs aforehand, do not only observe an holy rest all day, from their own works, words and thoughts, about their worldly employment and recreations, but are also taken up the whole time in the public and private exercises of his worship, and in the duties of necessity and mercy
    d. Confessional Requirements: One must hold to either the Westminster Standards, the Three Forms of Unity, the Second Helvetic Confession, or the LBCF to be approved for membership without a waiver. This does not mean that the these confessions are viewed as the "Word of God." Rather, these confessions and creeds are taken to accurately summarize the key doctrines of the Bible and allow mutual, like-minded fellowship (Amos 3:3, "Can two walk together unless they be agreed?"). The adherence to any orthodox historical documents assure that the board will be kept "like-minded" in most of the basic points of salvation history and that the fellowship "exhortive and encouraging." Those who seek to modify, depart from, change or disprove the doctrines found in the Confessions will bear the burden of proof to support their claim.

    e. Under some circumstances, the Admins may approve an applicant who does not fully confess one of these historic Reformed confessions but whose soteriological and ecclesiological journey is taking them down that path. This has included some Lutherans, Episcopalians, and some independents in the process of Reforming.


    My church adheres to the LBCF, but the topic at hand is debated in my church.

    Burden of Proof Provided below as to how I understand it. However, as a side note, I still set apart Sunday as holy, but do not impose restrictions on myself as to put myself under law (as I mentioned above).

    As an example:

    Col 2:16 Therefore let no one pass judgment on you in questions of food and drink, or with regard to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath.
    Col 2:17 These are a shadow of the things to come, but the substance belongs to Christ.

    ESV Study Bible Notes:

    Col. 2:17 a shadow of the things to come. The old covenant observances pointed to a future reality that was fulfilled in the Lord Jesus Christ (cf. Heb. 10:1). Hence, Christians are no longer under the Mosaic covenant (cf. Rom. 6:14–15; 7:1–6; 2 Cor. 3:4–18; Gal. 3:15–4:7). Christians are no longer obligated to observe OT dietary laws (“food and drink”) or festivals, holidays, and special days (“a festival … new moon … Sabbath,” Col. 2:16), for what these things foreshadowed has been fulfilled in Christ. It is debated whether the Sabbaths in question included the regular seventh-day rest of the fourth commandment, or were only the special Sabbaths of the Jewish festal calendar.

    ---------- Post added at 08:07 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:53 PM ----------

    Thank you for your responses, Marie.

    So my thought process around this isn't that we don't follow moral laws outlined in the bible. However, I do not think we should place restrictions on the Sabbath, in other words placing lists of things we should and should not do. Isn't that what Jesus was rebuking the pharisees about in Mark 2:27? The argument, as I have seen it so far, is a debate between if the Sabbath was part of the Mosaic Law or the Moral Law like you mentioned in your second comment. However, I would admit that I am not as versed on this subject as some, so this is something I would need to prayerfully consider.
    Robert
    Church Member - http://3riversgrace.org/
    Southern Baptist Convention - London Baptist Confessions of 1689
    Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania
    1 member(s) found this post helpful.

  36. #36
    py3ak's Avatar
    py3ak is offline. They're stalling and plotting against me
    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Posts
    12,836
    [Moderator]Robert, you have made your position clear. It is not a confessional position, and so we won't provide a platform for its promotion. Ideally this exception to the Confession would have been included in your application for board membership, or at least noted in your profile.

    The rules you cited do not mean that the Board has promised to hear out those who think they have a Biblical case to make against the Confession; merely that it is at the discretion of moderators, administrators, and especially board ownership to determine when posting has become unacceptable advocacy.

    This thread is closed for the Sabbath; we can reopen it on Monday, but with the understanding that no one is going to argue against the observance of the Lord's Day as the Christian Sabbath, but to reply to the question raised in the OP.
    [/Moderator]

    P.S. For those wanting to know about the Christian Sabbath, Dabney is the second-best thing I've read on the topic.
    http://books.google.com/books?id=CF3...page&q&f=false
    Ruben: Administrator
    NCCC-OP
    Steger, IL

    ...analogy does not mean identity. When we make a comparison we do not make an equation. -John Murray

    Board Rules - Signature Requirements - Suggestions?

    Teología en Mexico
    The Howling Wilderness
    3 member(s) found this post helpful.

  37. #37
    rbcbob's Avatar
    rbcbob is offline. Puritanboard Graduate
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Posts
    3,643
    Quote Originally Posted by RobertPGH1981 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by rbcbob View Post
    MODERATOR'S WARNING; Beware that your comments appear to be contra confessional.

    LBC 22:8. The sabbath is then kept holy unto the Lord, when men, after a due preparing of their hearts, and ordering their common affairs aforehand, do not only observe an holy rest all day, from their own works, words and thoughts, about their worldly employment and recreations, but are also taken up the whole time in the public and private exercises of his worship, and in the duties of necessity and mercy
    d. Confessional Requirements: One must hold to either the Westminster Standards, the Three Forms of Unity, the Second Helvetic Confession, or the LBCF to be approved for membership without a waiver. This does not mean that the these confessions are viewed as the "Word of God." Rather, these confessions and creeds are taken to accurately summarize the key doctrines of the Bible and allow mutual, like-minded fellowship (Amos 3:3, "Can two walk together unless they be agreed?"). The adherence to any orthodox historical documents assure that the board will be kept "like-minded" in most of the basic points of salvation history and that the fellowship "exhortive and encouraging." Those who seek to modify, depart from, change or disprove the doctrines found in the Confessions will bear the burden of proof to support their claim.

    e. Under some circumstances, the Admins may approve an applicant who does not fully confess one of these historic Reformed confessions but whose soteriological and ecclesiological journey is taking them down that path. This has included some Lutherans, Episcopalians, and some independents in the process of Reforming.


    My church adheres to the LBCF, but the topic at hand is debated in my church.

    Burden of Proof Provided below as to how I understand it. However, as a side note, I still set apart Sunday as holy, but do not impose restrictions on myself as to put myself under law (as I mentioned above).

    As an example:

    Col 2:16 Therefore let no one pass judgment on you in questions of food and drink, or with regard to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath.
    Col 2:17 These are a shadow of the things to come, but the substance belongs to Christ.

    ESV Study Bible Notes:

    Col. 2:17 a shadow of the things to come. The old covenant observances pointed to a future reality that was fulfilled in the Lord Jesus Christ (cf. Heb. 10:1). Hence, Christians are no longer under the Mosaic covenant (cf. Rom. 6:14–15; 7:1–6; 2 Cor. 3:4–18; Gal. 3:15–4:7). Christians are no longer obligated to observe OT dietary laws (“food and drink”) or festivals, holidays, and special days (“a festival … new moon … Sabbath,” Col. 2:16), for what these things foreshadowed has been fulfilled in Christ. It is debated whether the Sabbaths in question included the regular seventh-day rest of the fourth commandment, or were only the special Sabbaths of the Jewish festal calendar.

    ---------- Post added at 08:07 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:53 PM ----------

    Thank you for your responses, Marie.

    So my thought process around this isn't that we don't follow moral laws outlined in the bible. However, I do not think we should place restrictions on the Sabbath, in other words placing lists of things we should and should not do. Isn't that what Jesus was rebuking the pharisees about in Mark 2:27? The argument, as I have seen it so far, is a debate between if the Sabbath was part of the Mosaic Law or the Moral Law like you mentioned in your second comment. However, I would admit that I am not as versed on this subject as some, so this is something I would need to prayerfully consider.
    ROBERT,
    I AM REOPENING THIS THREAD AND ASK THAT YOU CAREFULLY READ MY RESPONSE. Whatever eventual (if any) exceptions you may list to the London Baptist Confession please refrain from advocating such exceptions on Puritan Board postings.

    Robert,
    Re: Col 2:16 “So let no one judge you in food or in drink, or regarding a festival or a new moon or sabbaths,”

    This passage does NOT address the Fourth Commandment, nor indeed any of the Ten Commandments. The Ten Commandments are the summation of the MORAL Law which is binding on Man as Man. As Moral Law they were binding before Sinai and after the Death of Christ alike.
    The apostle was referring to Judaizers seeking to impose a variety of Ceremonial Laws upon Gentile Christians.

    Thomas Scott, successor to John Newton at Olney, in commenting on Col. 2:16 said:
    “Seeing therefore that Christ had cancelled the ceremonial law; let no man venture to judge and condemn the Gentile believers, as guilty, or as in no part of the church, because they disregarded it; and let no Christian disquiet himself about such censorious judgments which related to the distinction between clean and unclean meats, or the use of, or abstinence from, this or the other drink; or the neglect of the Jewish festivals and solemnities, the new moons and Sabbaths.
    Doubtless this last related principally to the weekly Sabbath, which as observed on the seventh day, was now become a part of the abrogated Jewish law. For the Sabbath under the Mosaic dispensation, was a ceremonial and a judicial, as well as a moral requirement; the morality of it had no necessary connection with the seventh day in preference to all others, save as that was for the time appointed. __Thomas Scott, loc.cit.


    One of the hallmarks of the New Covenant is the guarantee that God’s MORAL Law (as codified in the Ten Commandments) would be written on the hearts of God’s people and that they would keep them.

    Jeremiah 31:33 "But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the LORD: I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.
    This passage is repeated twice in the book of Hebrews (8:7-13; 10:14-18).

    One godly 19th century minister wrote:
    “Read the apostle’s comment in the 8th chapter of the epistle to the Hebrews, where he describes the New Covenant, and contrasts it with the Old … ‘I will put MY LAWS (the very Decalogue of which we speak) into their mind and write them in their hearts.’ And accordingly is not the first commandment, to worship one God, thus written upon the heart? Is not the second, to worship Him not with graven images? Is not the third, not to take His awful name in vain? And so of all the others. And is the fourth then omitted? … Are there ten commandments in the law, and only nine written on the heart? Is the institution of the Sabbath engraven and exhibited in the very order of the first creation, and not engraven in the order of the new creation [2 Cor 5:17]?
    … The apostle yet more distinctly teaches us this, when he says, that the Christian is an epistle of Christ, and refers to the two tables of the law transcribed on the human heart, and to the Holy Spirit as the Divine Author of the transcription. Mark, I entreat you, his language: ‘Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not IN TABLES OF STONE, BUT IN FLESHY TABLES OF THE HEART’ (2Cor 3:3) Hence there are two tables of stone, the two tables of the law__the first and the second__the one containing the precepts of the love of God; the other those of the love of man. Here is a precise transfer of this law, a removal from mere tablets of stone, to the fleshly tablets of the heart. In this transfer, do any of the commandments fall away? In the Christian’s heart, the two tablets are re-impressed, the two tablets as they came from the hand of God. And has the fourth commandment disappeared in the passage through which all the rest have found their way from the tablets of a literal inscription, to those of the Christian’s heart?”__Daniel Wilson


    The disposition of the New Covenant believer towards the Moral Law is that of The Apostle Paul who says in Romans (7:12) “… the law is holy and the commandment is holy and just and good” and then in (7:22) “… for I delight in the law of God according to the inward man.”

    John Murray on the Sabbath Institution:
    “The sanctity of the Sabbath resides in the command to keep it holy or to sanctify it (Exodus 20:8); the sanctity is that which is involved in sanctifying it. There are two elements in the word ‘sanctify’. It means first of all, to set apart. If set apart it is distinguished from something else. This belongs to the sanctity of the seventh day. There are people who will say that every day is to them a Sabbath, at least that every day is to them the Lord’s day. … The recurring seventh day is different, and it is so by divine appointment. To obliterate this difference may appear pious. … It is not piety to be wiser than God; it is impiety of the darkest hue. The Sabbath day is different from every other day, and to obliterate this distinction either in thought or practice is to destroy what is of the essence of the institution.
    … so we come to the real point at issue: may it be said that we are free to observe less strictly the fifth and seventh commandments? The abolition of certain Mosaic provisions guarding and promoting these two commandments we must recognize. But has the sanctity of these commandments been in any way revoked or the strictness with which we observe them relaxed?
    … The question is: is it a divine ordinance? If it is, the adherence to it is not legalistic any more than adherence to the other commandments of God. Are we to be charged with legalism if we are meticulously honest? … Are we to be charged with legalism if we are scrupulously chaste and condemn the very suggestions of gesture of lewdness? How distorted our conception of the Christian ethic and of the demands of holiness has become if we associate concern for the details of integrity with pharisaism and legalism! ‘He that is faithful in that which is least is faithful also in much: and he that is unjust in the least is unjust also in much’ (Luke 16:10).”

    Robert, believing you to possess a teachable spirit, permit me to caution you to not hastily throw over our confession of faith which has stood the test of time for over three centuries. Our Baptist forefathers were no novices in the Scriptures. Their chapters on the Law of God (19) and Of Religious Worship and The Sabbath Day (22) reflect the seasoned convictions of those who wrestled through the vital issues of essential doctrines. I urge you to give a very careful reading to these two chapters.

    Some eighty years after our confession was signed there arose a serious challenge to “those things most surely believed among us” by certain Baptists who embraced the error of Antinomianism (the denial of the binding nature of the moral law for the Christian).
    Oliver wrote: “… the English Particular Baptists were deeply exercised about the relationship of the Christian to the moral law or Ten Commandments. The Antinomian controversy produced divisions among them that proveed to be deeper than those caused by the debates about the terms of communion or the preaching of the gospel. … Abraham Booth published The Death of Legal Hope, the Life of Evangelical Obedience in 1770 … [wherein] he expressed the hope that ‘while some professors of evangelical doctrine are verging toward Arminian legality, and others towards Antinomian licentiousness, it will be your happiness to be preserved from those wide and fatal extremes’. ”__Robert Oliver, HISTORY of the ENGLISH CALVINISTIC BAPTISTS p.112
    Bob, RBC Louisville. 1689 LBCF

    Forum Rules - Signature Requirements

  38. #38
    J. Dean's Avatar
    J. Dean is offline. Puritanboard Junior
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Posts
    1,396
    Quote Originally Posted by Zach View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by SolaScriptura View Post
    Because we aren't a theocracy.
    I agree. The Sabbath is a universal moral law, but the command to kill those who break it is a political law for the State of Israel.
    Question: was the Sabbath commanded for Noah in Genesis 9 under penalty of death?
    J. Dean, author
    EPC
    Flint, Michigan

    “If your preaching of the gospel of God's free grace in Jesus Christ does not provoke the charge from some of antinomianism, you're not preaching the gospel of the free grace of God in Jesus Christ.”
    ― D. Martyn Lloyd-Jones

  39. #39
    Peairtach's Avatar
    Peairtach is offline. Puritanboard Doctor
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Posts
    6,408
    Genesis 9 was the only mandate that Gentile nations had for exercising the death penalty.

    At the time of Moses when "the law was added" (Gal 3:19) the criminal law of Moses, as well as serving as the criminal law of Israel, taught the Israelites that without the penal substitutionary sacrifice of Christ, there is no remission of sins. It was partly typological.

    The death penalty was carried out by the congregation of Israel under the authority of the elders in consultation with the priests. Thus there may be some teaching in the criminal law of Moses respecting the kinds of flagrant offences that should face sanction in the Israel of God, the New Testament Church.

    Even when it was being administered properly - although it was probably neglected by the Pharisees - it may have occurred relatively rarely, because there had to be the requisite presumptiousness in the breaking of the 10C, and there had to be two or three witnesses, who also had to agree to be involved in the execution.

    If there wasn't the quality of evidence or if there wasn't the level of presumptiousness, another penalty would take the place of the death penalty.

    And while the children of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a man that gathered sticks upon the sabbath day. And they that found him gathering sticks brought him unto Moses and Aaron, and unto all the congregation. And they put him in ward, because it was not declared what should be done to him. (Numbers 15:32-34)
    They probably had to consult with the Lord as to whether this man's offence was presumptious enough to warrant the death penalty.

    This book, on the criminal law of Moses in the Talmud, indicates how the death penalty may have been neglected in the Second Temple period:

    http://www.amazon.com/Criminal-Code-...3696878&sr=1-3

    Our Lord mentions its neglect in relation to the Fifth Commandment (Matt 15:4; Mark 7:10).
    Last edited by Peairtach; 12-12-2011 at 07:42 AM.
    Richard Tallach
    communicant member,
    Knox Free Church,
    Perth, Scotland GB

    His Name forever shall endure;
    last like the sun it shall:
    Men shall be blessed in Him,
    and blessed all nations shall Him call (Ps. 72:17)

  40. #40
    louis_jp's Avatar
    louis_jp is offline. Puritanboard Freshman
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Posts
    449
    Quote Originally Posted by rbcbob View Post
    Re: Col 2:16 “So let no one judge you in food or in drink, or regarding a festival or a new moon or sabbaths,”

    This passage does NOT address the Fourth Commandment, nor indeed any of the Ten Commandments. The Ten Commandments are the summation of the MORAL Law which is binding on Man as Man. As Moral Law they were binding before Sinai and after the Death of Christ alike.
    The apostle was referring to Judaizers seeking to impose a variety of Ceremonial Laws upon Gentile Christians.
    Col. 2:16 also recalls the language in places like Ezekiel 45:17 and Hosea 2:11, which seem to refer to the ceremonial system as a whole.
    Louis DiBiase
    Midlane park, ARPC
    Louisville, KY

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 48 49 50 51 52 53 54 55 56 57 58 59 60 61 62 63 64 65 66 67 68 69 70 71 72