Are We Terrorists?

Hebrew Student · #1 (**permalink**) 04-13-2009, 06:43 PM

Hey Everyone!

I wanted to start a discussion about something that happened today. I was on James White's blog, and, apparently, USA Today mentioned James in one of their oped blog entries:

Fightin' words - Opinion - USATODAY.com

It started a heated debate over secularism and Christianity in the comments section.

Now, I have been interacting with the secularists on that blog on and off today, and what I have found is that, more and more common is this idea that, because we believe that God's word is the ultimate standard of truth, we are just like Islamic Terrorists. I realize that it is downright absurd, but I was wondering how the people on this blog handle that objection when they hear it. It is becoming common enough from the secularists that I believe we need to have a ready made response.

God Bless,
Adam

Rich Koster · #2 (**permalink**) 04-13-2009, 07:18 PM

suicide_cat_bomber.jpg Have you seen my cat?

Archlute · #3 (**permalink**) 04-13-2009, 07:22 PM

I don't have time to read the article, but the typical accusation from secularists is that convinced Christians and Muslims alike are to be considered "dangerous fundamentalists", due to the fact that we take our religion seriously.

What they really mean to say is "I can't believe that you are still stuck in the dark ages, attributing some sort of divine authority to a book that we now know was obviously written by men. Haven't you ever heard of the Enlightenment? It just goes to show how dangerous you really are, even mentally unstable, that you put your faith in myths and fairy tales made up by delusional men."

That "tongue in cheek quote" above is really not too tongue in cheek. Just read some of the stuff put out recently by Dawkins and co. and you will see that they actually put those thoughts to print.

The bottom line is this - they put all their stock in autonomous reason, while we put it in divine authority. They cannot do the latter, because they have not the light of the Holy Spirit, and so see it as positive foolishness and a danger to a secular utopia. We cannot grant them the former, because of the very fact that we have been truly enlightened by the Holy Spirit to see the folly of the mind of the unregenerate man. You really cannot win these kinds of battles through rational rebuttal; darkness will not receive light apart from the Gospel.

Curt · #4 (**permalink**) 04-13-2009, 07:28 PM

According to the state of Missouri most of us are domestic terrorists on any number of counts.

**py3ak** · #5 (**permalink**) 04-13-2009, 07:28 PM

You could draw their fangs by admitting to being a spiritual terrorist - the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but spiritual, and mighty through God to the pulling down of strongholds. In prayer and worship and preaching we have "sneak attacks" so to speak, against which they cannot guard, and whose force they cannot hope to repel, and which they can never answer in kind.

Archlute · #6 (**permalink**) 04-13-2009, 07:29 PM

Decided to read it. Glad it was short, though still a poorly written and reasoned piece.

Didn't surprise me one bit that the author lives in Portland, Oregon. I come across his type everyday here.

Also didn't surprise me that he would misrepresent several items in the article, such as the fact that Jim Dobson did not resign (taken in the sense of leaving under negative circumstances, which is what the article clearly would like you to believe), but that he retired from a successful ministry under very good terms.

Hippo · #7 (**permalink**) 04-13-2009, 07:51 PM

It is not an altogether incorrect view from a humnaist perspective, a Christian should not share the presuppositions of secular society and will inevitably be hostile to many of its interests. If someone does not accept the Abrahamic revelation as being divine then logically they should treat Christianity with the same suspicaon as they do Islam when it is held to be the standard for law and morality.

In short Christianity is in conflict with the governments of this world, and the fact that it is true should not be expected to sway the opinion of secularists as they have no reason to believe us when they do not believe Muslims when they say much the same thing.

What is objectively different is that as Christians we are called to be good citizens, to render unto Ceaser and to obey the laws. We are commanded to conform as long as doing so is not sin (i.e. worshipping false Gods). What more do secularists want, atheists are not bound by such moral constraints.

steven-nemes · #8 (**permalink**) 04-13-2009, 07:53 PM

Regarding the article: as if the claims that Jesus is God and that people ought to behave themselves in an ethical matter are mutually exclusive...

Anton Bruckner · #9 (**permalink**) 04-13-2009, 08:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Curt

According to the state of Missouri most of us are domestic terrorists on any number of counts.

yep the MIAC report. That being so, I'm glad to be the domestic terrorist they have deemed me.

**DMcFadden** · #10 (**permalink**) 04-13-2009, 08:17 PM

Wow! I'm glad he didn't see White's comments about the Roman Catholic church and the papacy! He would be arguing for calling out the National Guard to surround White's house and take him off to jail.

LawrenceU · #11 (**permalink**) 04-13-2009, 09:16 PM

Anyone who believes in revealed propositional truth today is in danger of being labeled a terrorist. It smacks against the root of the current philosophy of the age in which there are absolutely not beliefs which possess absolute truth.

Christoffer · #12 (**permalink**) 04-14-2009, 04:15 AM

At least where I live, conservative christians are labelled "enemies of the state" by the more rabid left-wing people.

Seems to me that these people are completely blind to history. The same language was used by totalitarian communist regimes. Enemies of the state were shipped off to gulag.

There seems to be a new religion, blind belief in the excellence of the secular state. Whatever the state does is good. Whoever questions the state is evil.

Christoffer · #13 (**permalink**) 04-14-2009, 04:53 AM

Speaking of the state

When one abandons the concept of being morally responsible to God then you have to have some other principle of morality. Secularists often go with some form of utilitarianism (someone correct the spelling), ie. what benefits the many is good.

But that principle also justifies mass murder of the few. If you look at history you can see that "terrorism" has been a feature of secular states.

If there is anything to fear, it is aggressive secularisation.

ExGentibus · #14 (**permalink**) 04-14-2009, 08:11 AM

There is no new thing under the sun. Jesus himself, the disciples and the early Christians were all accused of being terrorists, radical revolutionaries and persecuted as enemies of the state. The same happened during the Enlightenment, the napoleonic era and in socialist regimes.
History has indeed a lot to teach to these modern secularists.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Christoffer

When one abandons the concept of being morally responsible to God then you have to have some other principle of morality. Secularists often go with some form of utilitarianism (someone correct the spelling), ie. what benefits the many is good.

But that principle also justifies mass murder of the few. If you look at history you can see that "terrorism" has been a feature of secular states.

If there is anything to fear, it is aggressive secularisation.

I totally agree. What I find a paradox is that those who speak most about personal liberties often embrace the ideologies that produced the most oppressive regimes.

OPC'n · #15 (**permalink**) 04-14-2009, 09:59 AM

Anyone who goes against the culture of this world will be consider a terrorist. The term terrorism is a new weapon for many around the world against those they don't like.

BJClark · #16 (**permalink**) 04-14-2009, 10:14 AM

I don't understand why they are 'fightin' words'--

These conversations do one of two things--they either open one's heart to the truth or they harden the hearts of others to the truth--and for that reason they are good conversations to have.

The sad truth for these folks is that God is working to harden their hearts against Him, what a great and terrible day it will be for them when they stand before Him in judgment for all eternity.

Though they may mock Him today, they will one day bow in terror before Him, and they will truly be sinners in the hands of an Angry and Just God. My heart aches for those whose hearts are hardened, because I know their fate.

Archlute · #17 (**permalink**) 04-14-2009, 02:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sjonee

Anyone who goes against the culture of this world will be consider a terrorist. The term terrorism is a new weapon for many around the world against those they don't like.

I have been labeled a terrorist by my neighbors' dogs.

OPC'n · #18 (**permalink**) 04-14-2009, 02:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Archlute

Quote:

Originally Posted by sjonee

Anyone who goes against the culture of this world will be consider a terrorist. The term terrorism is a new weapon for many around the world against those they don't like.

I have been labeled a terrorist by my neighbors' dogs.

Well, I can allow for allowances when it comes from dogs! Dogs rule you know.

StormSaxon · #19 (**permalink**) 04-14-2009, 04:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Christoffer

At least where I live, conservative christians are labelled "enemies of the state" by the more rabid left-wing people.

Seems to me that these people are completely blind to history. The same language was used by totalitarian communist regimes. Enemies of the state were shipped off to gulag.

There seems to be a new religion, blind belief in the excellence of the secular state. Whatever the state does is good. Whoever questions the state is evil.

I understand your pain, I've met Finnish atheists before, if I may say so, they can be more rabid in promoting anti-christian ideology in general than many American atheists.

Richard King · #20 (**permalink**) 04-14-2009, 04:37 PM

This is bigger than the Missouri list which was idiotic. This is the head of Homeland Security "profiling" us when you are not allowed to do so with actual non citizens. There are things going on that we really need to at least go on record saying yea or nay. If I say I want a constitutional government and wishing it were so gets me on a "list". Something is very VERY wrong.
Praise God our governor Rick Perry (who I am usually very suspect of ) actually somehow came out on the right side of things and stood up for the 10th Amendment today.

JBaldwin · #21 (**permalink**) 04-14-2009, 07:13 PM

My husband said he heard of the Homeland Security report on two different radio show this afternoon. Apparently, anyone who doesn't care much for the current administration is a terrorist.

DonP · #22 (**permalink**) 04-14-2009, 07:39 PM

We need to keep preaching that we have no interest in taking over the world politically or physically.

We are non-Agressors.

We do not use violence or force to take over countries.

And this is why we are safe and unlike the Moslems who believe in both.

So even if seen as fundamentalists we should be seen as harmless.

The worst we can do is make them feel guilty. But I fear this is so strong in many of them that it hurts as bad as a punch in the face so they consider us violent by our mere presence.
So they want to extinguish us off the face of the earth so they are free of guilt.

Whereas even Gay protesters and others may do more physical violence.

And we need to speak out against those few who would use violence like bombing abortion clinics, but thankfully we haven't had any of them lately.

StormSaxon · #23 (**permalink**) 04-14-2009, 08:24 PM

Well, in a sense we are about taking over the world, but on the grassroots level rather than from the topdown (as opposed to Theonomy, though if some follow this I mean no offense), preaching to convert hearts and souls to Christ, which in turn leads to men being elected of integrity by the Grace of God, and that in turn shows in the political system. Much the same way the United States was 200 years ago, and Switzerland is still to a limited extent this day (last I checked Switzerland is approximately 40% Reformed).

Although I digress, that has nothing to do with us being labeled terrorists or takeover by force.

Richard King · #24 (**permalink**) 04-15-2009, 10:21 AM

they cite possible threats as:

war veterans (they use Tim McVeigh as an example)

single issue people like pro lifers

and they actually fear constitutionalists

If this is the best government can do who needs the Homeland Security Agency? This is pathetic.

Skyler · #25 (**permalink**) 04-15-2009, 10:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PeaceMaker

We need to keep preaching that we have no interest in taking over the world politically or physically.

We are non-Agressors.

We do not use violence or force to take over countries.

And this is why we are safe and unlike the Moslems who believe in both.

So even if seen as fundamentalists we should be seen as harmless.

The worst we can do is make them feel guilty. But I fear this is so strong in many of them that it hurts as bad as a punch in the face so they consider us violent by our mere presence.
So they want to extinguish us off the face of the earth so they are free of guilt.

Whereas even Gay protesters and others may do more physical violence.

And we need to speak out against those few who would use violence like bombing abortion clinics, but thankfully we haven't had any of them lately.

The unfortunate thing is, many(if not most) fundamentalists don't realize that.

**DMcFadden** · #26 (**permalink**) 04-15-2009, 11:51 AM

Does anyone find it more than slightly ironic (amusing) that the same people who are rushing to condemn Christians as terrorists are also eliminating the term from the lexicon when it applies to Islamic terror? Homeland Security has its own Orwellian vocab for "man made disasters" and the like to replace the ugly, racist, xenophobic, non-inclusive words "Islamic jihadist/terrorist."

Somebody who will fly a plane into a skyscraper and kill 3,000+ is only a participant in a "man made disaster." Somebody who takes a moral stand against abortion on demand is a terrorist. Hmmmmm.

Re4mdant · #27 (**permalink**) 04-15-2009, 11:57 AM

Yes "the We" are terrorists, but I thought we agreed not to talk about "the We" before after the succesful completion of the mission

You know where we were going to take credit for the...

, I will say no more

DonP · #28 (**permalink**) 04-15-2009, 01:36 PM

Those who oppose the immigration of illegals who are bankrupting the system and seeking to change the language, education, flag and national anthem are not terrorist, in fact we want to raise taxes to support these people and improve their lifestyle, but those who verbally oppose murder, lying stealing, adultery, these are terrorists, and they are raising my taxes to pay for politicians to decide this?

Tea party, we need impeachment parties to eliminate these politicians and get ones in who want a free America

BJClark · #29 (**permalink**) 04-15-2009, 01:51 PM

Fox news is talking about this now, it was just the summary that went to the police stations, apparently the longer version is much more extreme and some in office are livid that it was 'leaked' to the public.

Even chatter on the internet about the government being to big, chatter against abortion, chatter against taxes---Homeland security and the FBI (based on the Patriot Act) have the authority to make up their own search warrants..and using key stroke logs to spy on citizens..and as of now Conservatives are being targeted..

here is the pdf file..

http://www.thelibertypapers.org/wp-c...m-09-04-07.pdf

Quote:

Proposed imposition of firearms restrictions and weapons bans
likely would attract new members into the ranks of rightwing extremist groups,
as well as potentially spur some of them to begin planning and training for
violence against the government. The high volume of purchases and
stockpiling of weapons and ammunition by rightwing extremists in anticipation
of restrictions and bans in some parts of the country continue to be a primary
concern to law enforcement.

Returning veterans possess combat skills and experience that are
attractive to rightwing extremists. DHS/I&A is concerned that rightwing
extremists will attempt to recruit and radicalize returning veterans in order to
boost their violent capabilities.

Quote:

Rightwing extremist chatter on the Internet continues to focus on the
economy, the perceived loss of U.S. jobs in the manufacturing and construction sectors,
and home foreclosures. Anti-Semitic extremists attribute these losses to a deliberate
conspiracy conducted by a cabal of Jewish “financial elites.” These “accusatory” tactics
are employed to draw new recruits into rightwing extremist groups and further radicalize
those already subscribing to extremist beliefs. DHS/I&A assesses this trend is likely to
accelerate if the economy is perceived to worsen.

Here is an interesting discussion on the topic

http://www.onenewsnow.com/liveblogafa.html

Life and Liberties Ministries has been listed as one of these extremist groups..

http://www.lifeandlibertyministries.com/

Rich Koster · #30 (**permalink**) 04-15-2009, 01:59 PM

Satan must be really torqued up against the Bride of Christ because he is being less subtle and more blatant these days. It must be that he knows his time is short and he's getting in his last jabs beforehe is toast.

DonP · #31 (**permalink**) 04-15-2009, 02:03 PM

Could be God is tired of our laziness and He is preparing to unleash satan to teach us a few lessons.

I would get your spiritual helmet on and prepare for what other Christians throughout the world have suffered over the centuries.

Subscribe to Voice of the martyrs if you don't already get it in email.

SolaScriptura · #32 (**permalink**) 04-15-2009, 02:58 PM

I don't think anyone here is a terrorist. But I do think that sometimes some folks (ahem) come really dangerously close to what could possibly be construed as sedition. Be careful with what gets said in a public forum... big brother IS watching.

sans nom · #33 (**permalink**) 04-15-2009, 03:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SolaScriptura

I don't think anyone here is a terrorist. But I do think that sometimes some folks (ahem) come really dangerously close to what could possibly be construed as sedition. Be careful with what gets said in a public forum... big brother IS watching.

Not only in an open forum, but anywhere. Few members of this board really know the people they are interacting with, and given that someone can gain access to the member-only forums after posting a mere 25 posts (imagine if all those times were in the intro section...), there is no security.

Rich Koster · #34 (**permalink**) 04-15-2009, 06:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SolaScriptura

I don't think anyone here is a terrorist. But I do think that sometimes some folks (ahem) come really dangerously close to what could possibly be construed as sedition. Be careful with what gets said in a public forum... big brother IS watching.

Isn't that the trumped up charge they accused Jesus with?????????????

**DMcFadden** · #35 (**permalink**) 04-15-2009, 06:27 PM

Quote:

Not only in an open forum, but anywhere. Few members of this board really know the people they are interacting with, and given that someone can gain access to the member-only forums after posting a mere 25 posts (imagine if all those times were in the intro section...), there is no security.

Yes, Matt, even those of you who go without a name or readily identifiable information are not as hidden as you think that you are. Our incredible set of electronic eavesdropping equipment and phalanxes of geeks and nerds situated in the basement in an undisclosed location (somewhere under the cover of a WalMart Super Store) know who you are and what you are doing . . . now! Stop that! Didn't your mother ever tell you to wash your hands before eating? And, did you spill mustard on your shirt again? BTW, please change your screen resolution. Some of the older analysts have complained that your text is not as legible as they would prefer it to be.

Galatians220 · #36 (**permalink**) 04-15-2009, 06:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SolaScriptura

I don't think anyone here is a terrorist. But I do think that sometimes some folks (ahem) come really dangerously close to what could possibly be construed as sedition. Be careful with what gets said in a public forum... big brother IS watching.

This is so true. I thought of a flippant reply to the OP, but my husband's warnings to me about talking and making jokes about things like this, delivered over the course of many years, kicked in big-time & so I censored myself. (He was in the Army's 101st Airborne Div. in military intelligence in Vietnam. He's sitting next to me right now and has "cleared" me to say not one syllable more than that.)

Well. I'll admit to being a rescued-by-God's-grace, recovered shopaholic, a huge Robert Murray M'Cheyne fan and a sports aficionada.

"Further, deponent saith not."

Margaret

LadyFlynt · #37 (**permalink**) 04-15-2009, 06:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Christoffer

At least where I live, conservative christians are labelled "enemies of the state" by the more rabid left-wing people.

Seems to me that these people are completely blind to history. The same language was used by totalitarian communist regimes. Enemies of the state were shipped off to gulag.

There seems to be a new religion, blind belief in the excellence of the secular state. Whatever the state does is good. Whoever questions the state is evil.

Where's our new Oleana?