Dr. Horton puts it in a way I've never heard before but a very good description in my opinion.


"In the Wal-Mart era of religion and spirituality, every particular creed and any denominational distinctives get watered down. We don't hear (at least explicitly) about our being "little gods," "part and parcel of God," or the blood of Christ as a talisman for healing and prosperity. The strange teachings of his father's generation, still regularly heard on TBN, are not explored in any depth. In fact, nothing is explored in any depth."

Michael S. Horton - Joel Osteen and the Glory Story: A Case Study

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Kevin - PCA - Mississippi

"What, for some, is sin, others do to the glory of God. And the good Dr. Pentecost's remarks notwithstanding, I intend to go home tonight and smoke a cigar to the glory of God. It is a kind of incense drifting to Heaven." - Charles Spurgeon

"Thanks be to God for His indescribable gift!" - 2 Corinthians 9:15

Yes that is good I really like Dr. Horton, he has blessed me in many ways

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Martin - Reformed
Husband to the most godly, honorable and loyal wife Line
Searching for a Church
Webpage www.5solas.dk
Free Online Reformed Seminary - http://www.tnars.net
Soli Deo Gloria

Why is it called the "Wal-Mart era"? BTW, Wal-Mart is now offically spelled "Walmart".

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Ivan R. Schoen, B.A., M.A., M.L.I.S.
Pastor of Maranatha Baptist Church (SBC)
Poplar Grove, IL, USA
http://maranatha-sbc.org

Maybe because of the large selection of goods available at discount prices? With smiling staff ready to serve you as you want to be served and a return policy that is unrivalled? Maybe that's why...

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Kevin, husband of a truly angelic woman, and father to ten.
Zion United Reformed Church of Sheffield
Ontario, Canada

Could be...but I doubt it. Horton better not walk into my store! Kidding!!

...and that Christians can now be refered to as 'liturgical markets'.

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Brad
Member- Eagle Heights PCA
Winchester, VA

Pro 16:33 The lot is cast into the lap; but the whole disposing thereof is of the LORD.

Isa 8:20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.

Walmart has been a godsend to poor people in Appalachia. We used to have to drive to Charleston or Roanoke or Huntington to purchase anything more than groceries. Think of it what you will but Walmart has done a great service to many.

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Benjamin P. Glaser, M. Div, Licentiate, Associate Reformed Presbyterian Church
Member Fairmount ARP Church
Pittsburgh, PA

Deo Vindice

At Walmart we call them customers.

After watching Osteen's 'pork' clip on youtube, I question whether he's actually read the Bible in any depth. What of Peter's vision? Did he miss that part?

I strongly suspect he spends very little time actually reading the Bible. I'm sure he dips here and there, but that message alone shows clearly he's not got a broad understanding of what Scripture teaches. "I stopped eating pork not just for my health, but to honor God..." give me a break!

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Todd K. Pedlar
member, First Congregational Church, (CCCC) Cresco, IA
http://inprincipiodeus.solideogloria.com
http://puritanwisdom.blogspot.com

"As God did not at first choose you because you were high, He will not now forsake you because you are low."
John Flavel in Keeping the Heart



Click to get: Board Rules -- Signature Requirements -- Suggestions?

Walmart is fine as Walmart. Burger King with it's "have it your way" slogan is fine too; I want my food done 'my way'.

The problem is when the church starts acting and operating like a Walmart and a Burger King. Christ's church should not be seeking after "customers" and looking to serve up the worship and the teaching under a "have it your way" mentality. Unfortunately, this is exactly what we are seeing in too many churches.

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Robert Truelove
Pastor
Christ Reformed Church
Lawrenceville, GA

I highly doubt that anyone is going to disagree with you here. It IS a problem. Thank God that the Church is NOT like Walmart and vice versa. I respect my superiors at Walmart. It's been a good place for me to work, but it's not the place of my heart.

My heart belongs to Christ.

If you don’t mind I like to bounce off of what Robert and Ivan said.

The market driven world had deeply affected the development of how we do church. Look at couple quotes from The Purpose Driven Church page 191- “The unchurched aren’t asking for a watered down message, just practical ones. They want to hear something on Sunday that they can apply on Monday.” Page 258, “ if all the people a visitor meets in the first 10 minutes are forty years older than he is, he will start to wonder if he fits in your church.” The first quote begs me to ask The One That Will Not Be Named That Wrote It, what is more practical then preaching Christ and him crucified? Do you not think that what doctrine of man that you preach and Gospel will affect and effect what you do on Monday? These are of course questions I would love to ask him personally, and if I sent them in a letter I doubt I have a response. Especially if I asked him in light of 2 Timothy 4: 3-4. The church is called to make disciples, and we are one body to the Lord, and all fit within that one body. We have young we have old, and in fact we all need each other and can especially learn from the older and wiser members of our congregation. Church in all practical purposes is not focused on the teaching and preaching of the Word, but instead on giving the people what they want, which the pastor of Saddleback even affirms in the area of music and sound. We have replaced word and sacrament, yes a Baptist uses the word sacrament, with Christian Rock style concerts with all the lights and sounds that excite their senses and detouring them from focus on God. Where by the focus is on the individual, instead of towards the church and Christ. The message instead of the needed silence of reflection, we bombard them with activity and noise. And this is done purposely as you read on page 259. And worst yet, giving people what they want so that they can receive more money to continue their programs to reach Christ. I’m not saying don’t tithe, but it doesn’t cost any more for you or I in the workplace to proclaim Christ. The Church needs to separated out of the world, we are not some business model to hold to, but a living organism in a environment that works in a family unit structure.

As all these fads that come and go just bring destruction to the Church. For people see unbiblical practices, get upset and leave because their true need was not meet, which is Christ. Am not just talking about the mega-church movement. Walmart gives good cheap stuff, but I do not go their for high end quality materials, the quality we give is based on scripture. We preach the word and proclaim all who God has given to us to be discipled all that the Lord God has reveled to us. And we respond to that word in faith, as observed in the sacraments. The people need to stop busying themselves and just for a while receive Christ. Horton has been saying the same thing. The people need to be discipled, after they are then as they progress give them more and more responsibility, but do not overwhelm them for Christ burden is light and we should be careful to put our people into the bondage of busyness. The Church message is not “have it your way” but instead is “repent and turn to the Lord who is the way to salvation”. Not based on us, but on God whom we should worship and serve.

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David Jolley
Currently SBC, may change
Confessions: 1680-SLBCF/ 2000-BFAM
Escondido, CA

I prefer First Things editor Joseph Bottum's tag for this North American phenonemon: 'Mere Religion'.

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Nathan Tyler
Reformed Baptist
University of Toronto (Student: Hons. B.A. in Philosophy)
Ontario, Canada

1689'er

http://nathantyler.wordpress.com

Well... I guess the answers to your first question would be too numerous for me to go into (though you have seen a few already in this thread). As far as how Walmart is officially spelled, sorry dude... all I did was copy and paste from Dr. Horton's article.

Walmart is providing a service to America that we all should be grateful for in this day.

Our liberal, environmentalist, unbelieving neighbors refer to a huge (but worthless) mega-church in our area as, "God-Mart."

Showing us what even the ungodly think of these post-modern religionists, and the shame and bad witness these organizations present to the world in the name of Christianity!

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Jim Rush
Elder, Church Of The Redeemer
Independent Reformed
California

TeachingTulip at:
http://TulipTheFlowerOfChristianity.lefora.com

An example I would like to add to this thread...

This evening when saying our evening prayers, my 10 year old daughter said with tears that she thought she shouldn't take communion because of struggles she is having with obedience to her mother. When I 'fenced the table' this last Lord's Day she really took it to heart.

I told her that if she loved her rebellion and did not desire to improve then she should perhaps refrain from the sacrament while pleading with God to grant her repentance (her decision, I don't believe dad's have the authority to censure their communing children--though I am a teaching elder, censures are exercised by the board of elders corporately). She said she wanted to do better but kept falling into the same sorts of disobedience and was starting to feel foolish for continuing to repeat the same sorts of sins.

I told her that she needed to be more deliberate in spending time with Christ. I spoke to her about practical disciplines like praying before she gets out of bed in the morning, spending time in the Word, looking for opportunities to go out of her way to serve others for Christ's glory. She was confused as to how these things would help her with her relationship with Mom. She couldn't express it in such words but what she was looking for was something 'tactical'; something directly 'relevant' to the problem at hand. She then wanted to know how long she should pray, read the Bible, etc.. I told her to begin and not stop until she knows she has met with Christ. Press on until the time takes on a sweetness that makes it a burden to stop.

I told her that until she gets deliberate about her everyday walk with Christ in the simple disciplines, the 'tactical' items would be of little benefit. I believe if she follows my counsel, she will see immediate results because she will be closer to Christ.

The problem in the modern church today is people want 'relevant' teaching...that which is tactical...that which speaks directly to their problems. This is to say, "I only desire Christ as long as He makes my life better". While the Bible is filled with relevant teachings on a broad range of life issues, I defy anyone to truly gain the victory they desire who seek only the solution and not the Christ of the solution.

Ben,
I don't know if you are serious but I agree with you and I also think you might be missing the point. No one is criticizing Walmart, it is the church modeled after Walmart that is being criticized.

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Alan
Seminarian, RTS Jackson, MS
OPC

The driving mission of Walmart is to draw the maximum number of customers so as to make the most money so as to build more Walmarts to draw more people to make more money.

Many churches have to varying degrees, adopted this same driving philosophy. Draw the most members to supply the largest budgets to build bigger buildings to draw more people to supply bigger budgets.

This is not the biblical mission of the church. Walmart is a fine store. The mission of the Church and the mission of Walmart should have nothing in common.

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Samuel
Ruling Elder, PCA
Snellville, GA

There is a strange proneness in us to make our opinion and practice a rule and a law to every body else, to judge of all about us by our standard, and to conclude that because we do well all do wrong that do not just as we do. Matthew Henry

At least one can always get a greeting as they enter Wal-Mart.

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Pergamum


"If a commission by an earthly king is considered a honor, how can a commission by a Heavenly King be considered a sacrifice?"
-- David Livingstone

Not always.

Quote:


As every other business in existence.


I personally shop at Walmart, I don't see why they get criticized.

And yes, I know that this is really not the point of the thread

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Robert
Lay Person
PCA
West Virginia
Go share your faith

Thanks Pastor Robert, for your bold truth.

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Seeking Godly Wisdom,

Melissa
Baptist>Seeking Reformed Church Home
Louisville, Ky

It's sad that Horton doesn't apply his commentary to himself. Given his despising of the RPW and his love of Anglicanism, I really would wish he would engage in a more "in depth" examination of the RPW. But, if his mind is already made up, I don't know what difference it would make.

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Randy Harris
Heritage PCA Church
Oklahoma City, OK

I think the grocery department at Walmart is over priced and the fruit is not so fresh.

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Rangerus
Southern Baptist
Austin, TX
Teacher and Volunteer
1689 LBCF & BF&M 2000