I'm reading someone else's facebook status and it said this:

"(Person A) is ponderign how God responds to the prayers of non-Christians, in light of Romans 8 and the events of the day."

I thought this to be odd. Scripture seems clear that God doesn't respond to the prayers (answering their prayers). They have no Mediator (1 Pt. 3:12 - "For the eyes of the LORD are toward the righteous, and His ears attend to their prayer, but the face of the LORD is against those who do evil." Prov. 28:2 - "He who turns away his ear from listening to the law, even his prayer is an abomination." Is. 1:15 - "So when you spread out your hands in prayer, I will hide My eyes from you; yes, even though you multiply prayers, I will not listen your hands are covered with blood." Prov. 15:29 - "The LORD is far from the wicked, but He hears the prayer of the righteous.").

Apparently Person A believers there are those who are actively wicked (which God doesn't respond to their prayers) and those who are passively wicked and he does answer their prayers. No Scripture support was given.

Finally, Person A gave two Scriptural passages to attempt to support his position, and he brought up Naaman in 2 Kings and Cornelius in Acts 10.



SO THE QUESTION: How would you respond to this?

__________________
Rev. Andrew J. Barnes
Husband of Dena
Father of Oliver
Master of Bruce
Pastor of Tchula Presbyterian Church

What can I say, I like blogs!

Why seek the Lord then? Or pray for salvation?

__________________
Pergamum


"If a commission by an earthly king is considered a honor, how can a commission by a Heavenly King be considered a sacrifice?"
-- David Livingstone

If we say that God doesn't respond (at all) to the prayers of the wicked, then that begs the question of why do they "get" what they pray for with (what seems) the same frequency as Christians?

__________________
Ben
Chaplain, US Army
Ft. Riley, KS
TE Ohio Valley Presbytery, PCA

God "responds" to that to which He has decreed He will "respond." How's that for not ending a phrase with a preposition!?

__________________
Josh Hicks, Chloë's Dad
Christ Covenant Reformed Presbyterian Church, RPCGA
Facebook - The Calvinist Vent
Board Rules - Signature Rules - Suggestion Box

It is God that multiplies our sorrows.... God, as a righteous Judge, does it, which ought to silence us under all our sorrows; as many as they are, we have deserved them all, and more: nay, God, as a tender Father, does it for our necessary correction, that we may be humbled for sin, and weaned from the world by all our sorrows; and the good we get by them, with the comfort we have under them, will abundantly balance our sorrows, how greatly soever they are multiplied. - Matthew Henry

I take it from - John 9:31 "Now we know that God does not hear sinners; but if anyone is a worshiper of God and does His will, He hears him.- that in such passages God would have us to understand that He will not grant such a prayer “a hearing” i.e. as Judge of all the earth such a prayer is judicially “thrown out of court.”
Psalm 66:18 If I regard iniquity in my heart, The Lord will not hear. 19 But certainly God has heard me; He has attended to the voice of my prayer. 20 Blessed be God, Who has not turned away my prayer, Nor His mercy from me!

__________________
Bob, elder, RBC Louisville. 1689 LBCF

"... Of such also, or of those who make a credible profession of being such, all those particular churches consist, which constitute our Lord's visible kingdom. ... Consequently, all the subjects of His government must have spiritual dispositions, , and yield spiritual obedience- obedience proceeding from an enlightened understanding, an awakened conscience, and a renewed heart."- Abraham Booth 1788

Seeking God

Pressing into the Kingdom: Jonathan Edwards on Seeking Salvation :: Jonathan Edwards (1703-1758) :: Classic Authors :: Monergism Books :: Reformed Books and Resources for Christians


Jonathan Edwards is helpful in this matter.

-----Added 7/14/2009 at 03:40:27 EST-----

https://www.sermonaudio.com/sermonin...=1129071323110

I don't understand how "actively wicked" and "passively wicked" works; the distinction is entirely bogus and therefore so is the suggestion there's a difference in how God treats them.

God turns His face away from sinners, in some part in order to turn them around. Of course He "hears" the prayers, and His response will be either to benefit those who are elect and will come into His household, or to glorify Himself in some other way for those who are not amongst the elect. I don't think God will answer a prayer positively for a sinner simply as a gift for their benefit, because it wouldn't benefit them without salvation. Although He might give them what they want to drive them deeper into the curse when He has already given them up.

In either way, there's no useful sense in which God grants the prayers of the unregenerate, even if they somehow understood of God's existence enough to say the words to the right place (being unregenerate, that's debatable).

[note: by 'sinner' here I mean an unregenerate sinner]

__________________
Paul
No denomination, affiliated with FIEC
"Deliver me from worldly dispositions, for I am born from above and destined for glory" - Valley of Vision
"They think it strange that you do not plunge with them into the same flood of dissipation" - Peter

There seems to be a "ploughing work of the Spirit" whereby we causes sinners to begin to be interested in the things of God and to pray; and then at some point God regenerates them.

I am a little slow at picking things up sometimes but how does Naaman fit into this. God healed him of his leprosy but through Elisha. Maybe I'm missing it but I don't see where Naaman prayed and his prayer was answered. If I am missing it, can someone point me to the text?

As far as Cornelius:

1) He was one of God's elect

2) It was a divinely appointed miraculous occurrence to show that the gospel had also gone to the Gentiles. See Peter's response to all this. I do see that God noticed his giving of alms, etc. but I don't know if we could use this as an across the board proof that God honors the prayers of the wicked.

__________________
John Lanier
Elder in Training
Reformed Baptist Church
Topeka, KS

I think the most interesting example on this topic is in Genesis 21: 16-17. We see not only Hagar's implicit prayer being answered, but perhaps even Ishmael's (the voice of the lad):

__________________
Raymond Victor Bottomly
Providence Reformed Baptist Church, Tacoma, WA

Click to get: Board Rules -- Signature Requirements -- Suggestions?

I wonder if this would have something to do with the ordo salutis?

__________________
Willie Grills
Trinity Presbyterian Church
OPC
Huntington, WV

For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,
1 Tim 2:5

~Do the unsaved have a mediator?

Now we know that God heareth not sinners: but if any man be a worshipper of God, and doeth his will, him he heareth. John 9:31

In the divided senses, God hears everything, in the compound, he does not.

~Seeking occurs after regeneration, prior to conversion; What unregenerate man would seek after God?

__________________
Scott Bushey
Husband to Tina, father to Nicole, Danielle and Zoe
Member First Presbyterian Church of Margate PCA

Scott: If you want to disagree with Jonathan Edwards, go ahead.

Romans 11:7

What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.

I bet you disagree with Edwards, Calvin, Owen, Turretin, etc. etc. etc. on several things. If you want to, go ahead.

There IS a Puritan doctrine of "seeking" which Edwards, and his apologist John Gerstner brings up quite a lot. I do have Puritans on my side here (and I have plenty of backing regarding my credo positions as well, even if not by all the Puritans).

I have given the links above in a previous post.

That's great, Pergalicious. It wasn't my point. My point was that disagreeing with Edwards is not a novelty to you. I was poking at you, Friend.

Those that are Elect, God draws to himself. In this drawing, the Spirit awakens the Elect but still un-regenerate soul to sensehis dnager and pray for mercy. This ploughing work of the Spirit causes the awakened sinner to seek and at some point, God may be pleased to grant the new birth.

-----Added 7/14/2009 at 05:51:33 EST-----

Yes, that is true. We use past theologians insofar as they advance our own positions sometimes, heh? I find that I like past writers in proportion to how well they agree with my present positions! I think we all probably do, right?

Perg,

Then in light of all of that has been discussed. Who's prayer does God not hear? At what point does one go from being unregenerate and not heard to being unregenerate and being heard? Serious question. Thanks.

God hears some of the prayers of the Elect, even when unregenerate (i.e. non-Christian).

1. Can you give examples? Or Scripture references?

2. So if I understand your position. God only hears the prayers of His elect be they regenerate or unregenerate?

There seems to be evidence (that Scott Bushey gives above) that God does not hear prayers of the Unregenerate non-Elect. Though, God did seem to hear the prayer of Hagar and Ishmael in the example above.

But, I feel confident to say that God does hear some of the prayers of the Elect, even before conversion, due to my belief in the doctrine of seeking, whereby God awakens and draws the sinner.

God does not hear all of the Elect's prayers either...for instance, when we knowingly sin.


THis link summarizes my views: Seeking God

This may be another example of an unregenerate praying and receiving an answer.

1 Kings 21:27-29
27 When Ahab heard these words, he tore his clothes, put on sackcloth and fasted. He lay in sackcloth and went around meekly. 28 Then the word of the LORD came to Elijah the Tishbite: 29 "Have you noticed how Ahab has humbled himself before me? Because he has humbled himself, I will not bring this disaster in his day, but I will bring it on his house in the days of his son."

__________________
Patrick
MDiv, RTS Jackson
Pastor, Grace Presbyterian Church (OPC), Lisbon, NY

"He does well, that discourses of Christ; but he does infinitely better, that by experimental knowledge, feeds and lives on Christ." Thomas Brooks.
"Let us not please ourselves that we have deep understandings, but let us shew our understandings by our practice." Richard Sibbes

Thanks Perg,

Another question if thats alright.

You say "due to your belief in the doctrine of seeking whereby God awakens and draws the sinner."

Are there Reformed people who don't believe this? Or am I reading it wrong?

It seems that some people think that God zaps the Pre-regenerate Elect person so that the very first act of "seeking" is the start of their New Birth, because, after all, no one would seek God if they were unregenerate. And no one would "truly" seek unless they were already regenerate,it is said.

However, there does seem to be a stage which was once called "The awakened state" whereby the sinner is sensible to his peril. Thus the reason that great mass movements of people were called "Awakenings", which is better terminology than "Revivals". Jonathan Edwards spoke much about how to treat the sinner in this awakened state, and also preached quite a number of sermons about what to do, yourself, if you are thus awakened (i.e., how do you seek God)?

Here is a book that compiles some of these sermons:

I think the Scriptures tend to take a less speculative approach to the question.

The real question is not whether or not God hears the prayers of the wicked but whether their prayers are mediated by Christ and, perhaps, what God might do with the prayers of those who are His enemies.

Balaam, for instance, prayed and I believe he was heard but, like his donkey, was used of the Lord to bless those who wanted to curse God's enemies. The Book of Revelations seems to indicate that it was his suggestion to send Midianite women into the camp not too long after.

From a practical theological perspective, we are all commanded to seek the Lord. I think it would only confuse a person whose heart might be moved by the Word to wonder if God really hears him because we confused him with the thought that God might not hear His prayers. I know of one such fellow who fell into speculation about the hidden things of God and concluded he wasn't one of God's elect.

We direct people to Christ and the Cross and let God be God as to whose prayers are mediated by Christ. We also let God be God with respect to how he might use the agency of wicked prayers in ways that may be used according to His Providence. He's certainly not deaf to the prayers of those who practice false religion.

__________________
Rich
PCA, Northern VA
Student, New Geneva Theological Seminary

WebsiteMaven - Web Hosting Reviews, Guides, and Advice to build and promote your web site.
SoliDeoGloria.com - A Community for Reformed Thought and Discussion

Click to get: Board Rules -- Signature Requirements -- Suggestions?

I heard a preacher state in a sermon, "If you are unregenerate, your prayers meet with a steel wall in heaven and will not rise to be heard...The Lord will not hear the prayers of the wicked."

Then, not fully 10 minutes later, he proclaimed, "Now, for those who do not know Christ, I urge you to throw yourself upon his mercy and pray and beseech Him for that mercy..."


Contradictory?

I don't think so in light of this doctrine of seeking, whereby we are urged to act, knowing that those actions are not meritorious even while readying us for the reception of divine grace.


There are twin dangers when preaching about "How to be saved."

(1) That we speak of the means in such a way that people begin to think that these means are meritorious and that one's actions are contributory.

and

(2) That we stress God's sovereignty to such a degree that we reduce the use of those means that we are told to perform, even while yet unable to perform them (such as "Seek the Lord", "Repent")..and so the sinner might become hoeless, helpless and passive in his lost state and be afriad of striving vigorously to press into heaven, lest his theology be bad.


We are not to make an idol out of the means; but we are not to be idle in the means.

These are no more than assertions; please support this claim w/ scriptures.

Additionally, care to interact w/ the passages I provided earlier.

Finally, the majority of the responses agree with the idea I posed. God hears everything (in the divided sense), God hears only the prayers of His people (the compound sense).

God is inclined to hear the prayers of His people in a special way; we are his children. In the divided sense, He hears, but He is not inclined as those prayers are the prayers of the devils children.

"Drawing" is akin to the inward call. One cannot 'see the kingdom of God' unless one is born again.

Psalm 106:13-15, "They soon forgat his works; they waited not for his counsel: But lusted exceedingly in the wilderness, and tempted God in the desert. And he gave them their request; but sent leanness into their soul."

__________________
Yours sincerely,


"Illum oportet crescere me autem minui."