Iron Sharpens Iron

James White will debate Harold Camping July 28/29 on the Iron sharpens Iron Program.

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Anthony D'Arienzo
Sunday School Teacher
Hope Reformed Baptist Church:
Medford, N.Y.

I thought I saw a notice that Camping left the planet some years back.

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Bob, elder, RBC Louisville. 1689 LBCF

"... Of such also, or of those who make a credible profession of being such, all those particular churches consist, which constitute our Lord's visible kingdom. ... Consequently, all the subjects of His government must have spiritual dispositions, , and yield spiritual obedience- obedience proceeding from an enlightened understanding, an awakened conscience, and a renewed heart."- Abraham Booth 1788

*sigh* I used to listen to Harold Camping on WFME in Northern New Jersey. I enjoyed Family Radio back in the 80's. Of course, times have changed. To say that Mr. Camping has wandered off the reservation is to be kind. I fear that James White will have to take great pains not to embarrass Mr. Camping. I'm not sure the latter is firing on all cylinders these days.

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Bill Brown
Elder
Reformed Baptist
Maryland

Click to get: Board Rules -- Signature Requirements -- Suggestions?
Visit my BLOG Theology for the Rest of Us

He planned to in 1994, but like the Millerites before him it did not happen.

-----Added 7/25/2009 at 12:38:24 EST-----

Yes Bill I also would listen to conference echoes then open forum. Ironically Camping now disagrees with himself if you listen he opposes his own long held views. I do not think he is doing well mentally.

Moved thread. For some reason it was in FAQ and Rules.

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Raymond Victor Bottomly
Providence Reformed Baptist Church, Tacoma, WA

Click to get: Board Rules -- Signature Requirements -- Suggestions?

As my good friend refers to him "our hometown heretic". (Camping lives in the Bay Area)

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Dewey D
Reformed Heritage Church (Independent at the moment)
San Fransicko, CA

Thank you Vic, the some reason was my computer inefficency

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John
Member
Christ Presbyterian Church (OPC)
Salt Lake City, Utah
www.christpres.net

This should be extremely one-sided. White should, with compassion of course, blow Camping right out of his dingy.

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William Price
Attending Mills Road Baptist Church, Houston, Texas

http://www.commandmentsandjudgment.com

The Reformed Voice Radio Broadcast

LBCF 1689

I just read an excellent article by James White on his Alpha & Omega Ministries Apologetics Blog. It is titled "Mariolatry Comparable to Indian Idolatry?" as an ex Roman catholic and convert to the Reformed faith and now a Presbyterian I was very interested to read the article.

I will be looking forward to hear the debate. In the meantime if you have not read or visited his blog on Apologetics I recommend it.

He quotes the following Perhaps then you will hear what Tertullian ("the Father of Latin Christianity") had to say.

He explained that it was the mark of a Christian man not to wear a crown:
crowning would have been most suitable if it were worthy of God. But if these things were figures of us (for we are temples of God, and altars, and lights, and sacred vessels), this too they in figure set forth, that the people of God ought not to be crowned. The reality must always correspond with the image. If, perhaps, you object that Christ Himself was crowned, to that you will get the brief reply: Be you too crowned, as He was; you have full permission. Yet even that crown of insolent ungodliness was not of any decree of the Jewish people. It was a device of the Roman soldiers, taken from the practice of the world—a practice which the people of God never allowed either on the occasion of public rejoicing or to gratify innate luxury: so they returned from the Babylonish captivity with timbrels, and flutes, and psalteries, more suitably than with crowns; and after eating and drinking, uncrowned, they rose up to play. Neither would the account of the rejoicing nor the exposure of the luxury have been silent touching the honour or dishonour of the crown. Thus too Isaiah, as he says, "With timbrels, and psalteries, and flutes they drink wine," [Isaiah 5:12] would have added "with crowns," if this practice had ever had place in the things of God.- Tertullian, On the Crown, Chapter 10

In grace,
Dudley

-----Added 7/26/2009 at 05:59:05 EST-----

From what I have read about Camping's theology it is said by some to be based on Calvinism. However I do not consider him a Reformed Protestant any longer. He departed from Calvinist Doctrine, and teaches relative free will of humanity, and that humans are not totally depraved. However, he still from what I have read subscribes to the idea that salvation is unmerited, cannot be achieved by good works or prayer, and is a pure act of God's grace. I guess on that base he is still at least Protestant.

He also no longer believes in a place called Hell, instead Camping teaches annihilationism; that life will end and existence will cease for the unsaved soul. On that basis he obviously also departs from the Westminster standards.

In faith and grace,
Dudley

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In faith,
Dudley

May we all be Sons of the Reformation and continue to proclaim what it means to be Reformed Protestant Christians!

I do not know a lot about Mr. Camping, but heard him say this evening on the radio that the Rapture will be May 21, 2011. I guess it's nice to know the date so we can be prepaired.

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John Komenda
Symphony Bible Church
Conservative Baptist
Buffalo, New York

Before they call I will answer; while they are yet speaking I will hear. Is.65:24 ESV

As the wise Southern theologian Gomer Pyle once said, "Fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice shame on me".

Pyle's Systematic (the 18 episode first-season Andy Griffith DVD) is one of my "go-to" resources when the chips are down.

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Kipp Soncek
Pastoral Ministry Apprentice--Grace Church of Dupage
Student--Midwest Center for Theological Studies
Illinois; 1689 LBCF
But none of these things move me, neither count I my life dear unto myself, so that I might finish my course with joy, and the ministry, which I have received of the Lord Jesus, to testify the gospel of the grace of God.
Acts 20:24

Won't this be fun!!!! I can't wait.

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Donald P. Grubb
theol46@embarqmail.com

Berean Baptist Church, Mansfield, OH
Mansfield, OH

John 6:63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing.
The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life.

James should do well.

Camping is pretty strong willed and not afraid to interrupt anyone if he does not agree...so it should be a lively debate.

My only concern is if the conversation gets bogged down in dates and times, and other gymnastics.

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Matthew Morales (Husband to Rachel)
Redeemer Presbyterian Church (Santa Rosa, CA)

"...But this is the one to whom I will look: he who is humble and contrite in spirit and trembles at my word." Isaiah 66:2b (ESV)

"Judge not the Lord by feeble sense, But trust Him for his grace;
Behind a frowning providence He hides a smiling face"-William Cowper

I thought that was Mr. Scott on Star Trek; the "Trouble with Tribbles" episode.

Actually Scotty was in agreement with Camping, believing as he did that the earth ended in 2011.

I hope Dr. White cleans Camping's clock!

-Rob

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In Essentials Unity, in non-Essentials Liberty, in all things Charity.

Robert Paul Wieland
Springs Reformed Presbyterian Church
Colorado Springs, CO RPCNA
Student at Reformed Presbyterian Theological Seminary, Pittsburgh PA
Never be afraid to do something new. Remember, amateurs built the Ark, but professionals built the Titanic.

The entire Harold Camping saga grieves me greatly.

During the past 35 years or so, myself and our family have known Mr. Camping, often been blessed by his biblical knowledge and Reformed teachings, and benefited from the many fine Christian teachings that has been made available on Family Radio. It was a good work for a long time.

However, we have had to witness Mr. Camping's slide into numerology (idolatry?) which in large part has produced his hapless prophecies, and now during this present time, this rapid, but still public, decline.

I take no pleasure in what has happened to him, his family, his church, his life's work, his associates, etc. It is one of the greatest tragedies I have ever seen a Christian man experience.

Therefore, I take no pleasure in his being ridiculed and being made the subject of less than charitable thoughts.

No, I am not one of his followers or supporters. Before the Lord, my husband and I distanced ourselves from Mr. Camping many years ago, so my comments are not meant as a defense of the bad teachings being put forth.

But we do not wish him ill, but rather, are praying that God will have mercy upon his soul and pull him back from this cliff he has jumped off.

It is my opinion that we all should be praying for wisdom and discernment for James White, with the hope that he will be used by God to penetrate Camping's thinking and that a spiritual miracle might still occur in the heart of a once respected saint. Might God bring good out of this debate. May those of us who observe the event, listen in love, and desire good results; not a further shaming of Mr. Camping.

For after all, he claims the name of Jesus Christ. Despite what we make of his wrong teachings, we must pray for Camping's (spiritual/mental) health and for repentance . . .not just for a spectacle.

My

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Ronda Rush
Church of the Redeemer
Independent Reformed
California


" . . .It is written, 'Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.'" Matthew 4:4

The Scriptures do not shy away from exposing false teachers who tear down the Church of Jesus Christ and lead astray His blood bought sheep. That their folly is exposed to ridicule is nothing compared to the judgment to come.

2 Timothy 3:6 For of this sort are those who creep into households and make captives of gullible women loaded down with sins, led away by various lusts, 7 always learning and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth. 8 Now as Jannes and Jambres resisted Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, disapproved concerning the faith; 9 but they will progress no further, for their folly will be manifest to all, as theirs also was.

See also 2 Peter chapter 2.

Ridiculed by who? Exposing false teachers is one thing but a child of God should not make Camping an object of laughter, insults, or deliberate belittling. The previous post said we should rather pray that God will have mercy upon his soul and pull him back from this cliff he has jumped off.

Have a good day,
William

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1 Kings 18:25 Now Elijah said to the prophets of Baal, "Choose one bull for yourselves and prepare it first, for you are many; and call on the name of your god, but put no fire under it." 26 So they took the bull which was given them, and they prepared it, and called on the name of Baal from morning even till noon, saying, "O Baal, hear us!" But there was no voice; no one answered. Then they leaped about the altar which they had made. 27 And so it was, at noon, that Elijah mocked them and said, "Cry aloud, for he is a god; either he is meditating, or he is busy, or he is on a journey, or perhaps he is sleeping and must be awakened." 28 So they cried aloud, and cut themselves, as was their custom, with knives and lances, until the blood gushed out on them. 29 And when midday was past, they prophesied until the time of the offering of the evening sacrifice. But there was no voice; no one answered, no one paid attention.

We can and should pray for the repentance of those who are undermining the Church. But exposing their madness is not thereby excluded. These two undertakings are not mutually exclusive. No doubt there were some Baal advocates whose sensitivities were bruised by this taunt of the prophet of the LORD.

Have you never read the Reformers? They were not so delicate as the political correct sensitivity police of our society today.

The apostles also calling unregenerates irrational beasts and so on also says something of the sort of rhetoric that might be permissible in Christian debate...

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Steven Nemes
Phoenix, AZ

Good philosophy must exist, if for no other reason, because bad philosophy must be answered - C.S. Lewis

I don't even understand why people would take Camping seriously. When people make sensationalistic claims as this they should be ignored. I'm surprised White didn't just laugh this of. How many people are being decieved by baseless claims like these?

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Julio Perez
Visting Branch of Hope OPC hoping this will be my home church.....


“No…we are all priests. Your vocation and your contentment in your vocation should not be dependent upon your being in vocational ministry or in being a figure of public acclaim. If God wills that fine…if He does not do that, you ought to still do what he has granted you to do to the glory of God.”

-Martin Luther

Perhaps one of my most used resources as well.

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Brian Eschen
Ruling Elder, PCA
Pleasanton, California

OK Bob, if that's the way you FEEL about Harold Camping fine. Nevertheless he was quite sound at one time and I believe there is hope for his never dying soul. The Lord has a way of bringing back them that are truly His.

-----Added 7/27/2009 at 09:09:37 EST-----

Steven,

It may be permissible for an apostle but it's a fruit that I would rather not have. That is why I deleted my post. With that said, may the Lord bless all that you do that pleases Him.

I agree that the Lord can save him and I would rejoice over it. For now though he is doing considerable harm to our Lord's Church (even teaching that the Lord has given up on His Church) and must be vigorously opposed.

I appreciate your charitable nature - a virtue in which I can be found lacking.

However, you should be open to the idea that a public humiliation could be used to draw this man back into the fold of orthodoxy.

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Edward
Deacon
PCA
Texas

I agree. I still listen occasionally to the Open Forum, no doubt out of sinful pride, attempting to see if I would answer the caller's questions as Camping does. The man's knowledge of Scripture is impressive, and I am sorrowed by how much he has slipped into allegorical interpretations of Scripture without warrant.

I don't know what led him to his current positions, but I pray that he will be led back to proper biblical teachings. My hope is that James White will avoid his usual polemics in the upcoming "debate" and will demonstrate a charitable posture.

AMR

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Patrick
Member, PCA
Chandler, AZ
ReformedTheologyInstitute.com

I fear explanations explanatory of things explained.

You can get the audio here from the debate that happened today.

This is what James White posted on it:

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jason d.
deacon @ Sovereign Joy Community Church
reformed baptist (LBC.1689)
fort worth (haltom city), texas

Thank you,
I wanted to catch the program, but missed it due to other commitments. Thanks for the link.

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Clark Brooking
Pastor
Living Hope Presbyterian Church (OPC)
Clarksville, MD

I listened live. The first thirty minutes were wasted trying to get the sound working, but the time was extended. I didn't think Camping was really debating. It was painful to listen to.

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Jake; Hold to Original WCF, member of SBC; Greater Atlanta, Georgia Area

The cross does not give us a minor shift or two with regard to a few of our ethical and moral and religious values; the cross radically disrupts the very center and citadel of your life from self to Christ. —Albert N. Martin

I would love to hear Camping make a broadcast repenting of his false teaching and failed prophecies and humbly pass the mic to a reliable teacher, therefore reforming Family Radio.

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Rich Koster
1689'er
Browns Mills NJ USA
Often Goofy Reformed Eccentric
Romans 7:14-25

In 1988, I was the station manager of Family Radio Station's WCTF Vernon/Hartford, CT (1170 AM).

Back in those days, Mr. Camping was touting this same type of spiritualizing of the text of all of the Bible based upon Mark 4:34. "Without a parable He did not speak to them..." then became the key for Mr. Camping to look past what the actual words of Scripture say and give the texts of Scripture whatever meaning he determined they should have. He had no ear for the admonition that his hermeneutic was flawed back then.

It wasn't long after I left Family Radio that Mr. Camping began making predictions about the coming of Christ and the end of the Church age. He was wrong in 1992 about 1994, and he is wrong about 2011. His teachings have changed and morphed and flip-flopped over the years, and though the last time I spent anytime listening to Mr. Camping at all was in 1993, it does not suprise me to see where his hermeneutic has taken him.

Dr. White has rightly said of this debate that "...the focus was the proper one: Harold Camping's incoherent hermeneutical methodology..." At least in this, Camping remains consistent, consistently wrong, consistently incoherent, but consistent none-the -less!

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Sterling Harmon
Presbyterian Church of Coventry (PCA)
Coventry, CT
Deacon
________________

"Whatever is laudable in our works proceeds from the grace of God."
-- John Calvin, Institutes III:xv.3.

"Our Lord God must be a good man, to be fond of worthless fellows. I cannot like them, and yet I, myself, am one."
-- Martin Luther, Table Talk
Interim Pulpit Supply of New England

My Facebook

Owner/Administrator @ Reformed Theology Institute

Is he really 88??? lol

I've never heard of him...

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Derek
Reformed Southern Baptist
Virginia

So what was your motivation for being involved with Family Stations, in the early years?

And are you against all forms of finding spiritual application from the Word of God? Are you a literalist?



Hopefully it was not your departure that caused Camping to go awry?!!!

Are you willing to admit that Mr. Camping admitted he might be wrong about the 1994 date? Do you remember, even back then, that Camping admitted future dating might be more accurate? (Not attempting to defend any of his dating, but he was not dogmatic about 1994 predictions, as many claim he was.)



We truly do not believe it is Camping's practice of making spiritual applications of the literal Scriptures that is in error . . .but it is his dependence upon and emphasizing numerology that has led him afield of orthodoxy.

Well, White still must prove that a purely literal interpretation of the word of God (which dispensationalists also insist upon and depend upon, to apologize for their wrong views) using isolated exegesis of Scripture passages, apart from the entire revelation of God, indeed is the only correct hermenuetic, and indeed tells the whole tale . . .

Regardless of this debate with Camping.

I used to listen to Family Radio as well, and had great respect for Camping. I can see the desire to have compassion for the man, but I also think compassion for the MANY people whp are led astray by his blatant heresies is warranted as well. He and his organization are aggressively pursuing the weaker lambs among the flock of God, and that makes them wolves, regardless of any past faithfulness to the truth.

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Brad
Member- Eagle Heights PCA
Winchester, VA

Pro 16:33 The lot is cast into the lap; but the whole disposing thereof is of the LORD.

Isa 8:20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.

I was just stunned that Camping was able to grasp what was being said. Please don't take that as being mean. He's old, yes, but that doesn't always mean anything. He just seems a little ....off, but he was able to keep up during this debate.

If you check the Iron Sharpen's Iron post about today's show you will see some of Campings supporters have come out. There are 125 comments as I post this.

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Mark
Deacon at an SBC church
Atlanta, GA
Blog | Twitter | Facebook |
Atlanta Evangelical Perspectives Examiner

Hi All:

I listened to the web debate, and, I believe, that Dr. White did a good job of showing just how subjectively Mr. Camping has used the Analogy of Faith. This especially came out when Dr. White was discussing the word "provoke" in the two passages cited. It would have been interesting to see Dr. White interpret the Acts passage based on the Hebrews text. Using Mr. Camping's method we may interpret Acts in this fashion:

Acts 15:39 - So, we don't really know what the word "contention" means here, but the Greek word is also used in Hebrews 10:24, and it evidently teaches that we are to "provoke" one another to love. Therefore, Barnabas and Paul were "provoking one another to love."

Mr. Camping has issued a challenge to the Reformed understanding of the interpretation of Scriptures - requiring Biblical evidence for the Grammatical, Historical, Theological method of interpretation. It may be a shock to Mr. Camping that his own hermeneutical practice touches upon the premises of the Reformed method of interpreting the Scriptures.

The Analogy of Faith

The Reformed have always stated that Scripture is to interpret Scripture. Mr. Camping departs from the Biblical teaching when he naively supposes that all Scripture is to be understood in this fashion. In other words, one cannot understand any passage in the Scripture unless one refers to another passage in the Scriptures. The use of the Analogy of Faith is intended for those passages which are "hard to be understood," 2 Pet 3:We can look at one passage in the Scriptures:

Genesis 1:1 - In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

I would ask Mr. Camping - is this passage coherent to both believers and unbelievers? I would say that many unbelievers (especially evolutionists) understand this passage very well - and reject it.

Quoting Scripture does not mean that one is quoting rightly. We have the example of Satan tempting Jesus, and he is quoting Scripture to validate his assertions. The Analogy of Faith is an excellent hermeneutical tool, but it does not stand alone.

Grammatical:

By "Grammatical" here the Reformed understand that we must interpret the very words of Scripture in their fullest meaning - this would include: Hyperbole, Metonomy, Metaphor, Simile, and Literal statements, to name simply a few. Here are some Biblical examples:

Hyperbole - Is an implied exaggeration. "The descendents of Abraham will be like the sand in the seashore."

Metonomy - Is using an effect to denote a cause, or, the cause for the effect, or when the subject is used to refer to the object. "My arrow is incurable (Job 34:6) - meaning that his wounds (4:4) are a bitter affliction to him. Or, "According to the mouth of Pharaoh" - "mouth" here refers to command (Dt 17:6). Or, "They shall take away all thy labour, and leave thee naked," (Ez 23:29) - here "labour" refers to their "earnings" or the result of their labor.

Metaphor - Takes the literal meaning of a word and turns it to something unpredicted. "I will make my arrows drunk with blood, and my sword shall devour flesh," (Dt 32:42). "Arrows" here are personified as living things drunk with blood.

Simile - Takes the literal meaning of a word in order to impress upon the mind a resemblance or likeness. "Is not my word even as the fire, saith Jehovah, and as a hammer that breaks a rock in pieces?" (Jer 23:29). God's "Word" is likened to "Fire" and a "Hammer" though a "word" is neither.

Literal utterances - Despite Mr. Camping's insistence to the contrary there are literal statements in the Bible. There are many examples of these:

1) Mt 16:20 - Jesus plainly commands His disciples that they should not tell anybody that He is the Christ.

2) Mt 9:2 - Jesus states plainly, "Your sins are forgiven."

3) Mt 20:16 - In interpreting a parable Jesus makes a clear statment.

4) Mt 27:19 - Joseph wrapped Jesus' body in a clean linen cloth.

5) Micah 5:2 - Many prophecies in the Old Testament were fulfilled literally - Mathew 2:5.

The Grammatical method of interpreting the Scriptures does not preclude the use of parables - in fact - it presupposes such a thing. What it seeks to do is to read the words of Scripture within their proper grammatical context.

This brings us to Mr. Camping's misuse of Mt 13:34. In this passage Mr. Camping entirely glosses over the phrase, "unto the multitude." The passage clearly says that Jesus spoke only parables to the multitude of people who were currently standing in front of him:

All these things spake Jesus unto the multitude in parables; and without a parable spake he not unto them.

The word "them" here refers to the multitude. But we are also told in verse 53 that after he finished speaking in parables he departed from them. Matthew 13:34 does not teach what Mr. Camping wants it to say. In fact, Mr. Camping is taking these words literally, and he is not spiritualizing the text itself! Every passage in the Bible is spiritualized by Mr. Camping except for this one!

Historical:

We are not to read our contemporary understanding of life back into the Bible. Paul did not know about the Internet, Amazing Grace, or Existentialism. To read these things into his writings would destroy the very meaning of his words. For example, when Paul writes:

Speaking to yourselves in psalms, hymns and spiritual songs...

He is not thinking about "Amazing Grace" as a "hymn." The word "hymn" may have meant something entirely different to him than it does to us today.

Without a sound historical understanding of the context of the Bible one runs the danger of reading one's contemporary prejudice into the Scriptures.

Theological:

This has basically been covered in the Analogy of Faith. But a true interpretation of the Scriptures does not contradict any other doctrine of the Bible. Scripture does interpret Scripture. But Biblical Doctrine also dictates the interpretation of a passage as well. Paul especially encourages one to sound doctrine, Tit 1:9; 2:1.

I am glad that Mr. Camping is challenging us to prove the Biblical hermeneutic in the Bible. I am sad that he does not hold to it, and, in doing so, has embraced and teaches many heresies.

Blessings,

Rob