God Preexisting Creation

christianyouth · #1 (**permalink**) 08-22-2009, 07:29 AM

Hey, I saw someone post this on another forum the other day. How would someone refute this person's reasoning?

Quote:

let me put it in simple terms: if I say there is an eternity before I win the lotto, by the nature of eternity, I will never win the lotto,

Thusly,

If I say there is an eternity before God creates the world, then the world will never be created.

How can we say that God existed forever before the creation of the world? Isn't that a contradictory statement, as the quoted section demonstrates?

Looking forward to some good responses,

In Christ,
- Andy

***toddpedlar*** · #2 (**permalink**) 08-22-2009, 07:42 AM

Part of the issue here is that God exists apart from time - it is very proper to argue that time itself is created as the universe is created... but apart from that, let me offer the following.

God exists, has always existed, and will always exist. He created the universe at some moment. Your friend seems to think, therefore, that God cannot be said to have existed forever prior to that moment.

Does your friend have a problem with the real number system?

The real number system is unbounded... that is, it passes from infinity in the negative direction, to infinity in the positive direction. To argue that the line cannot contain an infinite number of points in any section is to misunderstand the nature of infinities and the nature of lines. Your friend's argument is akin to saying that the real number line cannot be infinitely long because there is a point we define as the origin (and therefore there is something "less than infinity" to the left, the negative side of the number line). This is just false, and as I said, misunderstands the nature of the number line.

We can apply this (with care) to the situation at hand - and say that just as the real number line has infinite length to the left of the origin, and infinite length to the right of the origin, God has existed an infinite time prior to the present (or creation, or any other time point that you wish to specify), and will exist an infinite time afterward.

steven-nemes · #3 (**permalink**) 08-22-2009, 05:27 PM

If God created time as well as the physical universe, then there is no problem.

Brian Bosse · #4 (**permalink**) 08-22-2009, 05:35 PM

Hello Gents,

Quote:

Originally Posted by Todd

Part of the issue here is that God exists apart from time - it is very proper to argue that time itself is created as the universe is created... but apart from that, let me offer the following.

This is precisely the answer to the question. When you speak of God's existence as being eternally past, this *does not* mean that there is an actual infinite amount of time in the past where God existed. Rather, it infers that God existed prior to the creation of time. 'Prior' is in italics in the last sentence because it really is not proper to speak of some type of temporal priority sans time. God's existence is outside of time. Time never was and never will be a completed infinity. As such, God's existence apart from time can be called an eternity - which is the best that mankind can do who necessarily is part of creation and time to describe this type of sans time existence.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Todd

Your friend's argument is akin to saying that the real number line cannot be infinitely long because there is a point we define as the origin (and therefore there is something "less than infinity" to the left, the negative side of the number line). This is just false, and as I said, misunderstands the nature of the number line.

Todd, with all due respect, I think you are misunderstanding the force of the argument. Sure, the real number line extends infinitly in both directions. What does this mean? It simply means that given any real number 'm' there exists a real number 'n' such that n>m and there exists a real number 'l' such that m>l. This is by definition what philosophers of mathematics call potential infinity. If God's eternal existence was an existence in time, then that means there exists a point in time that is an infinite distance from today. Mathematicians will say things like, "you cannot traverse an actual infinity by a step-by-step process." The reason for this is that if you have two points that are said to be an infinite distance from each other, then when you move one step closer, what is the remaing distance? It is infinite. If it happens to be that the remaining distance is not infinite, then the two points where not an infinite distance apart in the first place. There are no two finite distances that when added together constitue an actual infinity. As such, your real number argument does not work, and your sans time argument is spot on.

Sincerely,

Briam

Zenas · #5 (**permalink**) 08-22-2009, 05:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by christianyouth

Hey, I saw someone post this on another forum the other day. How would someone refute this person's reasoning?

Quote:

let me put it in simple terms: if I say there is an eternity before I win the lotto, by the nature of eternity, I will never win the lotto,

Thusly,

If I say there is an eternity before God creates the world, then the world will never be created.

How can we say that God existed forever before the creation of the world? Isn't that a contradictory statement, as the quoted section demonstrates?

Looking forward to some good responses,

In Christ,
- Andy

Wow, insanely bad analogy. He's wrong in both respects.

Eternity contemplates existence in a place where time is irrelevant. In our present condition, we happen to relate events with time. However, absent time, events would still happen, there just wouldn't be the same, or any, temporal relation between them.

His conclusion that it would "never happen" is nonsensical because in declaring that the act would never happen, he necessarily assumes that he could place temporal limits on a never ending timeline, examine the space between and not find his event, and then conclude it never happened. Given his premise, it's obvious this implicit assumption is silly on its face, as it is contradictory.

-----Added 8/22/2009 at 05:58:28 EST-----

Quote:

Originally Posted by toddpedlar

Part of the issue here is that God exists apart from time - it is very proper to argue that time itself is created as the universe is created... but apart from that, let me offer the following.

God exists, has always existed, and will always exist. He created the universe at some moment. Your friend seems to think, therefore, that God cannot be said to have existed forever prior to that moment.

Does your friend have a problem with the real number system?

The real number system is unbounded... that is, it passes from infinity in the negative direction, to infinity in the positive direction. To argue that the line cannot contain an infinite number of points in any section is to misunderstand the nature of infinities and the nature of lines. Your friend's argument is akin to saying that the real number line cannot be infinitely long because there is a point we define as the origin (and therefore there is something "less than infinity" to the left, the negative side of the number line). This is just false, and as I said, misunderstands the nature of the number line.

We can apply this (with care) to the situation at hand - and say that just as the real number line has infinite length to the left of the origin, and infinite length to the right of the origin, God has existed an infinite time prior to the present (or creation, or any other time point that you wish to specify), and will exist an infinite time afterward.

He said it better.

Hungus · #6 (**permalink**) 08-22-2009, 06:08 PM

Actually you cannot properly say that God has existed for an infinite time previously, though I would agree that He will continue to exist for an infinite time onwards. The problem is with Time. Time is a function of mass or more properly Mass's effects on space. Since neither mass nor space existed prior to creation Time did not either. You can approach this is one of a couple of ways: First that God is atemporal and exists outside of time while extending into the temporal. The second is to say that God has eternally/always existed.

ReformedTarheel · #7 (**permalink**) 08-22-2009, 09:19 PM

Some excellent responses.

christianyouth · #8 (**permalink**) 08-23-2009, 03:27 AM

Wow! He really had me stumped with that one. Thanks for the great answers. God created time and God exists outside of time. That about solves that problem.

Ask Mr. Religion · #9 (**permalink**) 08-23-2009, 03:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by christianyouth

Wow! He really had me stumped with that one. Thanks for the great answers. God created time and God exists outside of time. That about solves that problem.

Indeed. God sees past, present, and future equally vividly.

AMR

Confessor · #10 (**permalink**) 08-23-2009, 11:20 PM

The guy in the OP actually proved that the first cause of the universe had to be timeless -- his argument is similar to William Lane Craig's brand of the cosmological argument.

He did a better job proving God than disproving Him.

OPC'n · #11 (**permalink**) 08-24-2009, 07:50 AM

Some really good responses! Did you share them with your friend?

christianyouth · #12 (**permalink**) 08-30-2009, 04:59 PM

Well I actually posted it without his knowing and wasn't planning on telling him about it, because I just wanted to know for myself because I think it's a good point. But I was just talking to him a minute ago and I guess he saw it, so we are talking about the argument right now. I'm about to ask him what he thinks of the responses and if he has a rejoinder to any of them.

OPC'n · #13 (**permalink**) 08-30-2009, 11:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by christianyouth

Hey, I saw someone post this on another forum the other day. How would someone refute this person's reasoning?

Quote:

let me put it in simple terms: if I say there is an eternity before I win the lotto, by the nature of eternity, I will never win the lotto,

Thusly,

If I say there is an eternity before God creates the world, then the world will never be created.

How can we say that God existed forever before the creation of the world? Isn't that a contradictory statement, as the quoted section demonstrates?

Looking forward to some good responses,

In Christ,
- Andy

Maybe I'm just not following his train of thought....but what does eternity have to do with anything that exists in time?

CharlieJ · #14 (**permalink**) 08-30-2009, 11:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Madcow

Maybe I'm just not following his train of thought....but what does eternity have to do with anything that exists in time?

Well, he is using eternity to mean "an infinite quantity of discursive time." Using that definition, if I told you I would give you $100 the day after eternity, you would never get it, because each day would not reduce the amount of time you would have to wait. After an infinite quantity of time would be.... never.

So, it's not possible for something to happen after an eternity (infinite time). Therefore, creation could not be after a prior eternity.

OPC'n · #15 (**permalink**) 08-31-2009, 12:00 AM

But we don't exist in eternity. Even when we go to live with God we won't ever be considered being in eternity. Eternity speaks of "time past" and "time forward" in that there is no time at all. Mankind will never fit this definition as we have a beginning. So to speak of eternity and then speak of creation is to show that a person doesn't understand what eternity means. Only God is eternal and only God could "step out of" eternity to create us thus creating time.

Jerusalem Blade · #16 (**permalink**) 09-06-2009, 03:19 PM

Apart from the discussion above, this is a thing I meditate on occasionally.

I think to myself, God has always existed — always. As this precludes His ever being created, or ever not existing, I find it is too profound a thing for me to dwell upon long. To seek to comprehend this — the eternality of His existence — is equal to trying to comprehend the infiniteness of His heart. In both cases my feeble intellect fails, and all that is left me is worshipful awe and wonder.

I am thankful He exists — a universe without Him would be a cold horror. Or a creating deity without His moral perfections, a fiery horror.

That God even exists — how can it be?! — that there is a God, is a wonder to fill the heart that it is so. He'll help us with such things when we are in glory with Him.

Humankind is blessed that the eternal One should look upon him with favor, adopt him into the love-life of the Godhead. That He is eternal and infinite will be our everlasting joy, for He will never get old, and our apprehension and love of Him will never get stale; the revelation of His glory will be ever fresh and new. Ever. Blessed us, to be His, and loved of Him.