I ask if Catholics are Christians since they include works as part of
justification. So would it be proper to evangelize Catholics as one would any
unsaved person? Also, doesn't purgatory deny the sufficiency of the cross?

__________________
Joe
4C's
Boston, MA

Catholics are trusting in the Roman church and their own works to save them. And while they're doing that, they're worshipping graven images and praying to Mary, the saints, and even loved ones that have died. Many have very worldly lifestyles. 'Ye shall know them by their fruit', no? I suppose some may be truly saved, but just ignorant of the true gospel? It even bothers me that people in Protestant denominations believe in free will, and believe that they choose Christ. I wonder how many so-called Christians are truly saved. I think about this alot.

As far as evangelizing Catholics, most won't even lend an ear. They are very much brainwashed and believe they are the only ones who are in the true church.

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bradstreet
FPC
Indianapolis, IN

"My hungry soul He filled with good,
He in His bottle put my tears,
My smarting wounds washed in His blood,
And banished thence my doubts and fears." Anne Bradstreet

Joe,

There is a broad variety of "Catholics", if by that term you mean "Roman Catholics". Some believe in what the decrees and popes have said; some believe in scripture, and some in a confused mixture of those two sources, and a blend of other philosophies.

Those who hold to damnable opinions should be evangelized for what they are: idolaters under the wrath of God. Those who do not should be educated into becoming Reformed Catholics rather than Roman.

Cheers,

Adam

__________________
Adam B., Wine Country, California, PCA

"I fear not to hold with Junius, de Politia Mosis cap. 6, that he who was punishable by death under that Judicial law, is punishable by death still; and he who was not punished by death then, is not to be punished by death now."

Not too long along I spoke with a priest about salvation (he's a pastor of a church in Milwaukee). He told me that salvation is found only in Christ and nothing else. I don't remember all of the particulars of the conversation, but he told me that there was nothing else (or no one else) necessary for salvation, only faith in Christ.

Rare bird, I suppose.

__________________
Ivan R. Schoen, B.A., M.A., M.L.I.S.
Pastor of Maranatha Baptist Church (SBC)
Poplar Grove, IL, USA
http://maranatha-sbc.org

Is this really that common? I have many Catholic friends, some of them very devout, and they have stated that they believe Protestants are also Christians.

One of my Catholic friends actually told me that Catholics believe in salvation by grace alone, and asked if Protestants didn't agree with that. I wonder if, by God's grace, there aren't a fair number of Roman Catholics who believe in the gospel despite the church's teaching.

__________________
Evie B.
New Members Class, RPCNA, Cambridge, Massachusetts

Remember not the former things, nor consider the things of old. Behold, I am doing a new thing; now it springs forth, do you not perceive it? I will make a way in the wilderness and rivers in the desert. -- Isaiah 43:18-19 (ESV)

The late Dr. John Gerstner used to say that the best thing you could hope for regarding a Roman Catholic and an Arminian is that they don't understand what they say they believe. If they understand it and still believe it, they are lost.

Unfortunately, very few Protestants understand what they say they believe too.

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Dr. Don Kistler

Those that consider themselves Catholic, and adhere to the teachings of the Catholic Church are not Christian. The Catholic Church preaches and believes a different Gospel, and that is foundational.

However, some who consider themselves Catholic don't actually adhere to Catholic teaching.

__________________
Larry Bray
Elder - Reformed Presbyterian Church of Boothwyn, PCA
Boothwyn, PA - http://www.rpcb.org/
Free Online Reformed Seminary - http://www.tnars.net
-----------------------------------------------------
Christian ritual costs nothing and is worth nothing. True Christian religion costs all that we have and is worth everything.

The Romish church is not Christian. I was trained by it and ordained in it. Purely pagan.

As for some of them being saved, I'm not sure. I once heard someone say there are some Romish who are elect (not saved), and once their election becomes effective they then leave. I'm not sure.

BTW, though she has a ThM and claims she's not Roman, my own wife still attends a local mass on Sundays rather than worship with us, claiming she likes the liturgy. Is she saved? I'm not sure.

__________________
Kevin Guillory
Pastor
Redeemer Christian Congregation
Baltimore, MD

I don't interpret Scripture. Scripture
interprets itself. And in the process ...
Scripture interprets me!

I'm interested to see more responses from exCatholics. It's been my experience that there are more lifetime "Protestants" defending the Catholic cause than there are exCatholics. I've known people who actually believe that they were delivered from Babylon and false religion (out of the RCC) when they were saved. Of course regeneration is much more than changing churches. But they could no longer stay behind in Sodom.

__________________
Kevin - PCA - Mississippi

"What, for some, is sin, others do to the glory of God. And the good Dr. Pentecost's remarks notwithstanding, I intend to go home tonight and smoke a cigar to the glory of God. It is a kind of incense drifting to Heaven." - Charles Spurgeon

"Thanks be to God for His indescribable gift!" - 2 Corinthians 9:15

Javilo,

There are some some major doctrines Roman Catholics and Protestants hold in common such as the Doctrine of God (Trinity).

There are also some major doctrinal differences.

Two of the most important are the authority of Scripture for Christian faith and practice (sola Scriptura) and justification by Christ's righteousness alone (sola Fide). When the Roman Church officially rejected these doctrines at the Council of Trent (1600's), we would say the Roman Church fell, officially, from the authority of Scripture and the truth of the Gospel. Scripture and the Gospel are not doctrine that can be compromised.

That is not to say ever single person who identifies themselves that way is not saved. There have been and are various reform movements within the Roman Church and there are some who, somehow, in spite of official doctrine, believe and are Christians.

__________________
Scott
PCA
North Carolina


"Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised)"
Hebrews 10:23

Are Catholics Christian?

The question has too many elements in it to form a simple answer. Other ways to ask the question will get us further in our investigations.

Can a Catholic be saved? Yes of course, and there are many on this board. I look back on my many years of RCC catechism and see the shadows and symbols of God's grace that would one day make sense to me. There was also a bunch of nonsense.

Is the Roman Catholic Church Christian? No, it apostatized at the Council of Trent when it proclaimed that any who teach that justification is by faith alone is to be cursed.

Does the RCC proclaim THE Gospel? No, it teaches another gospel by mixing the work of Christ with the work of man.

One important thing to remember is that the RCC is not a monolith of teaching and belief. We protestants have hundreds of splinter groups, independents and denominations. The RCC has the same varieties for they are a large church that covers the world. There are communist Catholics, charismatic Catholics, orthodox, liturgical, liberal, conservative, political, apolitical Catholics. They all pledge a certain allegiance to Popes and Councils but not all pledge total allegiance.

We tend to speak in generalizations about the RCC because we feel safer when we can categorize and file a group neatly away but there are many who are called out of the RCC and called within the RCC.

__________________
Bob Vigneault C.O.L, L.E., G.E, Dr.O.P., O.U.T.
The Heartbeat of Heaven (blog)
Deacon/Christ Presbyterian Church, Janesville, WI OPC www.christ-opc.org

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Roman Catholicism in the states looks very different than it does in Mexico. One of the claims people make in defending Rome is that it is 'one' church, as opposed to the fractured assortment of Protestant denoms and churches; but I know staunch RC's in the states who not recognize, and would be utterly appalled by, the RC church we saw in Mexico. I believe some Catholics can be Christians (though of all the Catholics I have spoken to in the states, only one seemed to evidence any understanding of salvation by faith alone in Christ alone: the rest evidenced various degrees of hostility to this doctrine as not being what their church taught them); but I do not believe the church is a Christian church because they have departed from the sole standard of the Word of God, have set up Mary as an idol --an intercessor, with more mercy and power than Christ (many in the states worship her just as fervently, though not so disgustingly, as they do in Mexico), and have added to salvation until they neither go into God's kingdom themselves nor allow other people to go in. Many of our congregants in Mexico were saved out of lives of flagrant sin (because the RC church makes provision for this) or terrible, lifelong guilt (if you aren't enjoying the cheapness of your sin and expiation, you're feeling guilty for how you can never atone for it) in the RC church. If this question came up there, with people living in a largely Catholic country, who have lived in the church, you would get a much stronger reaction. Indeed if many others had seen firsthand at a funeral service how they comfortlessly recite prayers from their prayer book to 'Mary the wife of the Holy Spirit', go about under a terrible burden of having to get their loved one out of purgatory, pay money (we know of one family where the living children went shoe-less while the priests took money to say masses for the dead) to save their and other loved ones' souls, buy and sell and crawl across courtyards for and bow down and worship their idols of Mary, there would be a stronger reaction against RC in protestant circles (perhaps even in some RC circles). This is what they are wherever they can get away with it.

PS. We obviously come down on the 'they should be evangelized' side. :-)

__________________
Heidi
Indianapolis, Indiana

Patience must dwell with Love, for Love and Sorrow
Have pitched their tent together here:
Love all alone will build a house tomorrow,
And sorrow not be near. -Christina Rossetti

I used to debate an aggressive Romanist who would try to have it both ways, as you describe. He would emphasize the supposed "one church" universality of the RCC but when pressed on issues like communion in both kinds and similar issues to what you detail he would basically disavow his co-religionists in other parts of the world and say he is defending American Romanists.

__________________
Christian
One Pilgrims Progress

I work at a Roman Catholic university (where I also went to school for six years) so I've been exposed to many, many kinds of Catholics from around the country and some from around the world. Most of the studets I knew were no more Catholic than going to an occasional mass, and they knew nothing about their own religion. One claimed that Purgatory was a doctrine from the middle ages that the church had dropped centuries ago! But that's perhaps not a fair comparison. Among people I work with, I interact with nominal Catholics, charismatic Catholics, extremely liberal Catholics, and pretty hard-core conservative Catholics. What's funny is that those who know theology often sound almost Reformed when asked to explain faith and works, the role of grace, etc. Several are quick to quote "faith without works is dead" and then state that they're saved by faith, and faith shows itself in works...as opposed to the "Protestant" teaching that you can be saved by saying you believe and then going about your worldy life as always. It's refreshing to hear that...they evidently haven't read their own catechism!

Catholic belief and practice are so wide that two people can claim the same church and be worlds apart in how they understand and live their faith. Many know ever saint and every feast day but couldn't tell you the first point of doctrine (their training probably stopped at age 12 after their confirmation). So I would have to say that those in the RCC who are Christian may very well be so in spite of the Church. But is the RCC itself a Christian church? I'm not sure I can say that--besides having anathematized Biblical faith at Trent, the much deeper issue for me lies in the post-Vatican-II teachings of near universalist ecumenism. I find their teachings to contradict the very nature of God himself:

"The Church’s relationship with Muslims. The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place among whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day (Catechism of the Catholic Church, paragraph 841, quoting Lumen Gentium 16, November 21, 1964)." -- emphasis mine

Muslims worship a god who is not trinitarian, who had no son, and who did not raise a messiah from the dead. This deity cannot be the same God worshiped by Christians. The "us" refers to the RCC, and this implicitly admits that the RCC worships and adores a merciful god who may or may not be Trinitarian and may or may not have had a Son...apparently it's negotiable? Or maybe God just changed his mind in the 1960s...

I cannot see how a body that teaches salvation outside of Christ can be called Christian.

(As an aside, the "Old Rite" type Catholics who reject Vatican II also see the universalist statements as denials of the nature of God).

__________________
Bill in Dayton, OH
Member of Redeemer OPC

"Show me Your ways, O LORD;
Teach me Your paths.
Lead me in Your truth and teach me,
For You are the God of my salvation;
On You I wait all the day." (Psalm 25:4-5)

I agree with Larry and I'm happy to see that many of you understand just how pagan Romanism is. However, there are those within that 'cult' (as I have come to call it) who truly have the Lord in their heart and do not adhere to its ritualistic dogma. I have family members in it, unfortunately, who I consider lost, just seeing how they live, speak and think. That's why I made my original statement. It's heartbreaking.

Kevin, fascinating observation! Yes! Most of the people who go squishy on Catholicism are lifelong Protestants. In my circles, the most unyieldingly vigorous opponents of the Roman church are those who see themselves as "delivered from Babylon," angry at being "dupped" for so many years, and those who knew it up close. It is easy for some of us to be "broad minded" when we only "know" it from afar.

__________________
Dennis E. McFadden, Ex Mainline Baptist (in Remission)
Atherton Baptist Homes, CEO
First Baptist Church of Alhambra, Member, Transformation Ministries (CA)

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Such a priest is not truly espousing truly Roman Catholic doctrine. His confession would be denied by the Papacy and has been historically declared anathema by the Canons and Decrees of Trent, Sixth Session: Canons On Justification.

And lest any think, "Well that's Trent! Vatican II changed all that!" -- No where in Vatican II is Trent ever annulled. In Roman Catholic mythology, the decree of a church council is irrevocable. "Semper Idem" (always the same), and since Trent pronounced Anathema upon any who would ever say "anything contrary to our holy Catholic faith", then--if the claim that Vatican II changed the theology of the Council of Trent is true--the Council of Trent condemend Vatican II before it ever took place. And that condemnation is irrevocable.

But, such is not the case. There is harmony between Trent, and both Vatican Councils' documents.

So, the short answer is: No. Roman Catholics are NOT Christians. They hold to another gospel. And YES, they need to be evangelized as every other sinner who has fallen short of the Glory of God.

__________________
Sterling Harmon
Presbyterian Church of Coventry (PCA)
Coventry, CT
Deacon
________________

"Whatever is laudable in our works proceeds from the grace of God."
-- John Calvin, Institutes III:xv.3.

"Our Lord God must be a good man, to be fond of worthless fellows. I cannot like them, and yet I, myself, am one."
-- Martin Luther, Table Talk
Interim Pulpit Supply of New England

My Facebook

Owner/Administrator @ Reformed Theology Institute

Are catholics Christians? Yes, there are some catholic Christians, though it is contrary to the official standing of the church. Is the catholic "church" Christian? No, not by the doctrines they proclaim. Sorry for the edit. I did not give it much thought earlier

__________________
"Peace if possible, truth at all costs." (Martin Luther)

David G. Suggs Jr.
New Covenant, PCA
Anderson, South Carolina

I'm bothered by this statement. There are quite a few ex-RC's on this board. I'm one of them. If you had said, "most unbelievers won't even lend an ear" I would agree with you. Wide is the way that leads to destruction. Don't get down on RC's. They are just as likely to come to faith as a Mormon or Buddhist.

__________________
Bill Brown
Elder
Reformed Baptist
Maryland

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Visit my BLOG Theology for the Rest of Us

Did not mean to offend here. I did say 'most'. I have a Catholic friend who will not discuss any faith issues. I also have family members who are deluded by Romanism. Surely there are elect among them who have not seen the light yet. I did not deny that, I only brought up how resistant they are to truth, as we have come to know it.

I rejoice that you are an exRC. Praise the Lord!

Is this some kind of unconscious thing for them, i.e. something which is simply a logical consequence of premises they hold, rather than a positive affirmation? I ask because I have Catholic friends and they all say that it is Christ who saves them. When asked directly by me, they deny that they can earn their salvation.

This isn't entirely accurate. Roman Catholics officially pray "to" Mary and the saints, but it is in order to ask said folk to intercede for them (e.g. "Saint so and so, pray for us"). They do not - or, according to their official teaching, should not - treat these as the bestowers of God's blessings, thereby putting them in the place of God. Perhaps some are confused and do that, but according to my friends on campus who are more well-studied, thoughtful Catholics, those who do so are in error. As far as worldly lifestyles go, there are also many professing Protestants who have them.


It is true that, according to official Roman dogma, they are the true Church, but this doesn't mean they believe that professing Christians from other churches can't be saved. They believe that those who have trinitarian baptism and are faithful will be saved, even though they do not have "full sacramental union" with the "true Church."

I hope no one misunderstands my motives here. I just wanted to point out that it does us no good to espouse straw men.

__________________
Davidius
Husband of Emily
Member of All Saints Anglican Church - Chapel Hill (AMiA / Anglican Church of North America)
Student: University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill, German and Classics

Here is Hodge.

Exactly David. For a RC to call Mary a co-redeemer, when the RCs explain it it's no different than when an Arminian talks about someone bringing someone else to Christ.

It's the old story about a bad organisation and those in it. After WW2 the SS was labelled (properly) as a "criminal organisation" but since it would be immoral and impractical to put 900,000 men in jail, there were a couple extra paragraphs attached to the verdict explaining that the condemnation didn't apply to every single person in the organisation.

Once you leave the Ecumenical Councils for definitions of heresey, it never really stops, and eventually you paint yourself into a corner with just a couple other people whom you believe to be saved, and eventually you're not really sure about them.

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Tim Vaughan
Member, Redeemer Presbyterian, OPC,
Santa Maria
California

As an ex-Catholic and alumna of two (yeah, two - ) Catholic universities, I would hope that no one here would stop trying to evangelize Catholics. To my sorrow, but in the Lord's will, I haven't yet been able to "reach" my Catholic family and friends. But my memory is not so short that I can't remember when I was a Catholic myself - although I was never a happy one; I never believed in papal infallibity, or Mary, or the "Real Presence," etc. - and rejected the efforts of Protestants to evangelize me. When a Baptist would tell me, "You're not even a Christian!" I would be in high dudgeon: of course I was a Christian! I believed that Jesus was God. Uh, no: I had head knowledge then, and I relied upon things like Mass attendance and Easter duty and the "sacrament of penance" and other malarkey for my expectation that I would be saved.

I reiterate what I said on another thread: you can't evangelize a happy Catholic. You can witness to them, but the Holy Spirit must be working on them, or they'll never leave the RCC. I have spent hours upon hours over the last 10 years trying to evangelize an old friend, a former high school classmate of mine. She'll admit there's no such thing as the "Real Presence;" she'll state unwaveringly that praying to dead Mary is futile. She's attended services at almost every Reformed Protestant church I've ever been involved with. Where is she now? A couple of months ago, she decided to back away from me and has gotten heavily involved in the catechism program at an RCC church near her home. I cry - but the Lord has done this and so I must be fine with it.

We just need to continue in prayer for these people...

Margaret

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Margaret
Free Church of Scotland [Continuing]
Michigan

I think they should be approached on a case by case basis. Some seem to exhibit true fruit. Others are as dead as can be.

The same can be seen in Protestant denominations.

__________________
Andrew DeShazo
Husband of Kathryn
Father of Phillip-Giles B. DeShazo
Deacon
Associate Reformed Presbyterian Church, Memphis, TN
"From out of the depth of unbroken Infinfity arose the Question, "Who am I?" And to that Question there is the answer, "I am God!" -Meher Baba, died 1969.

"I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me." Christ, died 33 AD, ressurected three days later.

__________________
Conscience may lash us, but it cannot replenish a languishing life. Conscience may be God's word and minister to you, telling you of your faults and your follies and your destitution. It may point out, but it will never supply you. Christ must give you new life. Hart has well expressed it: "He to the feeble and the faint, His mighty aid makes known; and when their languid life is spent, supplies it with His own." - J. K. Popham

Thanks, JM.

Interestingly enough, I just stumbled upon this:

This comes from this very site, which apparently considers RC heresy.

Many Roman Catholics do not really know or understand what the RCC actually teaches. Some are saved despite the church, as the Spirit works through The bible in those that read it.
Anyone trying to evangelize a RC will be further ahead to discuss the Person and work of Jesus,His perfection and His priestly work.
Without a firm grasp on the book of Hebrews, Galatians, and Romans, your discussion will deteriate into a philisophical debate on historical details that yield little fruit.
If you have not be raised in that church you will have a hard time understanding the hold it has on so many.
If you were raised in it,and saved out of it, it takes some time and several stages of growth in grace to recover from it.
You go from being-shocked at what you were taught- to mad or bitter about it- to confrontational about it/ reading Loraine Boettner- then getting back to a scriptural base.
Sometimes you are left feeling sad about family or friends that seem to draw back from truth that you place in front of them. We must learn to be patient , yet persistent with our witness living a holy life as well as showing a sincere concern for their souls.
If your hear is stirred up I believe the Spirit will use this alongside of a solid presentation of the perfect priestly work of our Lord to plant gospel seed.
We should leave our family or friends without excuse, and by the grace of God with a living hope.

__________________
Anthony D'Arienzo
Sunday School Teacher
Hope Reformed Baptist Church:
Medford, N.Y.

My grandmother is RC and she will say very protestant sorts of things. One minute, she will sound like a protestant. However, if you let her continue to talk, she will reveal that she does not understand the gospel of grace at all. Furthermore, if you explain it to her she will reject it.

I'm not so sure anymore that these sorts of Catholics are such rare birds. Rome is trying to make itself acceptable to Protestants through a sort of deceitful ecumenicalism. There is a great book chronicling this called "The Problem of Catholicism" by Vittorio Subilia.

Do not be fooled by papists that sound protestant. Dig a little deeper. Otherwise you risk contributing to a false sense of security on their part when they may very well by trusting in works.

Rome's gospel is another gospel and so not a gospel at all - Galatians 1

__________________
Matthew Vaughan
Presbyterian Reformed Church, Northern Va.
Warrenton, VA

So we must ask what is it that they all have in common?

There is indeed a great divergence of belief in RC, but as long as you bow the knee to the Pope in Rome, he will let you believe just about whatever you want. You can practice voodoo (yes, in Haiti) or celebrate pagan holy days (all over the world since the beginning of the spread of Rome's dominance) or whatever. Just join yourself to that man that has raised himself above everything that is called God.

We must be careful to seperate the heretical Roman teachings,from the actual people in the churches,most of whom do not even know the issues at hand. The church teaching is a wicked mix of truth and error which if ingested is spiritually deadly.
Some RC's are actually surprised to find out what the official teaching of the church is. Most do not believe or adhere to the actual teaching of the church, but consider the teaching optional.

So many helpful posts. Thanks.
Would it be safe to say that Catholicism isn't a cult
since they are trinitarian but they are a false church
because they don't beliieve in justification by faith alone.
I know a catholic apologist who says that he can't find
justification by faith alone before the reformation-16 century.
I researched and couldn't find much.
Maybe he is correct but doesn't going to church history
denying sola scriptura?

I wouldn't call the RCC a cult. I would contend that there are cults within the Roman Church. Those that venerate and worship Mary and especially those who consider her a co-redemptrix make up a cult within the church.

That's interesting. Could you post me a quote from a source of Roman teaching that says that one can believe whatever he wants as long as he "bows the knee to the Pope"? I spoke with a woman just yesterday who is leaving the Roman Catholic Church for the Episcopalian Church because she is unscripturally divorced and Roman priests won't allow her to commune.

Good point!

Yes, and I believe that the ex RC'rs know how the "church" actually kept them in darkness for years. As Reformed believers we know that only regeneration by the Spirit's power can cause a blind man to see (RC or not). But Satan has his devices and I believe that the RCC is one of them.

I would agree. The Roman Church still teaches the full divinity and humanity of our Lord. She rightly teaches the Trinity. Therefore The Roman Church is technically not a cult.
The Church of Rome is an apostate Church. She became apostate at Trent, when she rejected the Biblical doctrine of justification by faith alone. She further lapsed into apostacy when she became semi pelagian in her condemnation of the Jansenists. She fell still further at Vatican I when she taught the Immaculate conception of the Blessed Virgin Mary and taught Papal infallibility. She further ran headlong into aposatcy with the relativistic teachings of Vatican II.

__________________
Thomas Yeutter,
Mason, MI
Member St. Patrick's Anglican Church, Comstock, MI

Ezra 7:10 For Ezra had set his heart to study the law of the Lord and to do it and to teach its statues in Isreal.

I've known some catholics that acknowledge some sound doctrines as those we know to be the doctrines of grace. However, they continue to cling to their church as the ONLY church, submitting to the rule of the pope, worship and prayer to Mary and other idolatrous systems.

Reminds me of that joke where the guy is clinging to a slender tree over a cliff and yells, 'Isnt there a God to save me?' He hears a voice saying, 'turn loose of the tree and trust in Me'. Then he responds, 'isnt there anyone else out there?' They can acknowledge all the doctrine they choose but yet they still wont turn loose of their supposed 'real' church and trust only the very real Jesus Christ as their Savior. They want to have it both ways!

__________________
Nancy L./ www.foundersbaptist.org
Spring, TX

Your will, Lord Jesus Christ! Nothing more... nothing less... nothing else.

Again there is a wide separation between the doctrines espoused in the official creeds and documents, and that believed by people in the pews. I think it's accurate to say that a bare minimum is to believe in the authority of the church (and especially of the pope) and in their doctrine of the Eucharist. However, I've talked to a fair number of "cradle Catholics" who can't really recall what Transubstantiation means, and don't think the church really really means it's literal flesh and blood. Many do take the "buffet" approach and seem to think they have the leeway to pick and choose which teachings they personally want to hold. It seems the definition of "infallible" doctrine can be extremely narrow when necessary, but otherwise so vague that someone can say "well, that point was never infallibly declared..."