Can God create a rock so big...

Greg · #1 (**permalink**) 07-09-2007, 09:19 PM

Well, I'm sure you know the rest of that age old question. How would you answer it though?

Semper Fidelis · #2 (**permalink**) 07-09-2007, 09:27 PM

I'd tell the man he needs to repent of his unbelief. These are usually the facile arguments that unbelievers concoct that they might supress the truth in unrighteousness. I probably would just not answer the fool according to his folly lest I be like him. Frankly, giving any validity to the objection is part of our problem somtimes.

The argument is based on a philosophical conception of God that, to be God, God has to be able to do anything. If God can create a rock so big He can't move it then His inability to move the rock is a limitation. If He can't create the rock then He is limited by His inability to create the rock.

I don't have a conception of God that He can do anything for He reveals that He cannot lie. He cannot deny Himself. He must punish sin.

And He cannot create a thing that would be greater than or equal to Himself. It might satisfy the unbeliever if you state that the question itself is like asking if God can create a round square and that it is a nonsense question but, again, the problem is unbelief and not syllogisms with these kinds of objections.

regener8ed · #3 (**permalink**) 07-09-2007, 09:27 PM

God cannot act contrary to His nature.

etexas · #4 (**permalink**) 07-09-2007, 09:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Greg

Well, I'm sure you know the rest of that age old question. How would you answer it though?

I have been asked that before.........I REFUSE to answer it, the question is always asked by infidels, who want to weaken your faih and blaspheme God, I will not give the satisfaction of an "answer".

Don Kistler · #5 (**permalink**) 07-09-2007, 09:36 PM

God can do anything that is possible to be done. God cannot will Himself out of existence. God cannot cease to be. It is not possible for God to be and not to be at the same time.

The question is, therefore, if the impossible is possible, which is a contradiction of terms.

Don Kistler

Greg · #6 (**permalink**) 07-09-2007, 09:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SemperFideles

I'd tell the man he needs to repent of his unbelief. These are usually the facile arguments that unbelievers concoct that they might supress the truth in unrighteousness. I probably would just not answer the fool according to his folly lest I be like him. Frankly, giving any validity to the objection is part of our problem somtimes.

The argument is based on a philosophical conception of God that, to be God, God has to be able to do anything. If God can create a rock so big He can't move it then His inability to move the rock is a limitation. If He can't create the rock then He is limited by His inability to create the rock.

I don't have a conception of God that He can do anything for He reveals that He cannot lie. He cannot deny Himself. He must punish sin.

And He cannot create a thing that would be greater than or equal to Himself. It might satisfy the unbeliever if you state that the question itself is like asking if God can create a round square and that it is a nonsense question but, again, the problem is unbelief and not syllogisms with these kinds of objections.

Great point Rich. Thanks.

Davidius · #7 (**permalink**) 07-09-2007, 09:54 PM

The technical name for the fallacy is "complex question." Imagine if someone were to ask you: "have you stopped beating your wife yet?" It can't be answered in yes or no fashion, which is what the foolish unbeliever most likely wants because he knows that either answer would trip you up. Like everyone else has said, the question rests on a faulty understanding of God's nature. The person asking it assumes that we believe that being God means being able to do anything but this is not the case.

Civbert · #8 (**permalink**) 07-09-2007, 10:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Greg

Well, I'm sure you know the rest of that age old question. How would you answer it though?

If you consider a rock that large, the definition of lift becomes meaningless. Objects move relative to other objects (motion is not absolute). Lifting is simply separating two objects of mass - the one so massive that due to inertia, it experiences no measurable acceleration relative to the other as they are forced apart. Consider progressively massive rocks on earth. At some point the rock either collapse into the earths crust, or it becomes a planet and the earth becomes the rock. This would apply to any other planet. If the rock is in space, there is no other rock to lift against. Objects so massive they can not be forced apart would not be identifiable as separate objects - it would be one object.

Also the question implies an internal contradiction of what God can do. Can an omnipotent being create something that an omnipotent being could not move, implies both an all-powerful being (capable of creating objects of unlimited mass), and a limited being (unable to move an object of some mass).

The question is a good exercise of the mind (like Zeno's paradox), but it has no theological implications. I consider it good fun, like any riddle or a puzzle. It really has no application to God's nature - it is merely mental slight of hand.

Civbert · #9 (**permalink**) 07-09-2007, 10:15 PM

The best answer to the question I've read came from non-Christian on a chess website I frequent. I answered the question in the third and forth post on the thread, but bbarr's answer was the best (the initial post wasn't bad either).

The thread was titled "My response to the unliftable rock" and is found on the Red Hot Pawn website here:
http://www.redhotpawn.com/board/show...threadid=22199

x.spasitel · #10 (**permalink**) 07-09-2007, 11:34 PM

I posed the question to a Muslim once (not in a mean fashion -- explaining that it was a question often asked Christians and I was curious what his response would be.) He said, "God is all-powerful. He can do anything He chooses to do. Hence, He would be able to create a rock so big that He could not lift it. God is all-powerful, and can do anything He chooses to. Instantaneously He would be able to lift that rock." I'm not sure how helpful that response is, but I found it interesting.

Semper Fidelis · #11 (**permalink**) 07-10-2007, 12:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by x.spasitel

I posed the question to a Muslim once (not in a mean fashion -- explaining that it was a question often asked Christians and I was curious what his response would be.) He said, "God is all-powerful. He can do anything He chooses to do. Hence, He would be able to create a rock so big that He could not lift it. God is all-powerful, and can do anything He chooses to. Instantaneously He would be able to lift that rock." I'm not sure how helpful that response is, but I found it interesting.

Of course you could ask your Muslim friend how he knows that. There idea of Allah is that he is so much higher than we that we cannot even conceive of how he is. I've seen one quote that states: "Whatever you think Allah is, he is not."

Thus, if your friend says that he conceives that Allah can create a rock that big, then he cannot do it.

Cheshire Cat · #12 (**permalink**) 07-10-2007, 01:29 AM

Yes

...I mean No

.

bookslover · #13 (**permalink**) 07-10-2007, 02:03 AM

I remember telling some folks at a church years ago that there were some things God can't do: He can't lie, He can't will Himself out of existence, He can't do things contrary to His nature, etc. They were willing to admit these things, but they seemed uncomfortable with the basic idea that there are things that God can't do.

BrianLanier · #14 (**permalink**) 07-10-2007, 03:26 AM

No.

God cannot create a stone which He cannot lift.

This is not a problem however, since this is just to say that if God can create a stone then He can lift it.

See C. Wade Savage's Article, "The Paradox of the Stone" in The Philosophical Review 76 number 1 (1967): 74-79.

Savage makes this argument in detail.

He concludes by saying:

"[ . . . ]God's inablility to create a stone which He cannot lift is nothing more or less than a necessary consequence of two facets of His omnipotence. For is God is omnipotent, then He can create stones of any poundage and lift stones in any poundage. And "God can create stones of any poundage, and God can lift stones of any poundage" entails "God cannont create a stone which He cannot lift."

If anyone would like to view a copy of the article and don't have access to old copies of The Philosophical Review, just U2U me.

Hope this helps.

shackleton · #15 (**permalink**) 07-10-2007, 10:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Civbert

If you consider a rock that large, the definition of lift becomes meaningless. Objects move relative to other objects (motion is not absolute). Lifting is simply separating two objects of mass - the one so massive that due to inertia, it experiences no measurable acceleration relative to the other as they are forced apart. Consider progressively massive rocks on earth. At some point the rock either collapse into the earths crust, or it becomes a planet and the earth becomes the rock. This would apply to any other planet. If the rock is in space, there is no other rock to lift against. Objects so massive they can not be forced apart would not be identifiable as separate objects - it would be one object..

That would be a really good way to answer it. After that they would go away scratching their head and sorry they even brought it up...never to return with other stupid questions.

BrianLanier · #16 (**permalink**) 07-10-2007, 10:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shackleton

That would be a really good way to answer it. After that they would go away scratching their head and sorry they even brought it up...never to return with other stupid questions.

The only problem is that the question could be posed as a broadly logically possible problem.

Then someone could say that it is a contradiction (as Anthony did above) and therefore is not logically possible. However, it has been argued that it is not obviously a contradiction when the argument is laid out formally. (I'll try to do this later--I'm on my way to work.)

shackleton · #17 (**permalink**) 07-10-2007, 10:59 AM

I was just being sarcastic, since that is not how anyone would expect that question to be answered, making it about rocks and physics. The people who ask this question are usually not smart enough to comprehend an answer on this level, they are just being funny. At least that is my expereience.
When I have been asked this question they were not seriously wanting an answer but just to cause problems.
So I answerd like the above people saying that it is impossible for God to lie or do anything contrary to a Holy character, that ended the conversation because they were just making a joke.

Scott · #18 (**permalink**) 07-10-2007, 11:09 AM

Bahnsen answered this question no. He said that omnipotence is not defined in Christian theology as the ability to do anything. In Christian theology, omipotence means that God has the power to do all His holy will. As I recall he used this in the Gordon Stein debate and it flustered Stein. Anyway, it is a nice, simple answer that does not require several minutes of explanation.

First Catechism:

Quote:

13. Q. Can God do all things?
A. Yes – God can do all his holy will.

Brian Bosse · #19 (**permalink**) 07-10-2007, 03:15 PM

Hello Everyone,

Let me try and flesh out the formal argument against God implied by the question. I am using a Reductio Ad Absurdum proof...

Let A: The God of Christianity does not exist.
Let B: God is omnipotent.
Let C: God can create anything.
Let D: God can create a rock too heavy to lift.

1. Prove: A
2. Assume: ¬A (RAA Proof Form)
3. ¬A → B
4. B → C
5. C → D
6. ¬D (The Christian says, "No, God cannot create a rock too heavy to lift.)
7. ¬C (Modus Tollens on steps 5 and 6)
8. ¬B (Modus Tollens on steps 4 and 7)
9. ¬¬A(Modus Tollens on steps 3 and 8)
10. A (Law of negation)
Q.E.D.

This proof is valid. However, the Christian would argue that the proposition in step 4 is false, thereby making the proof unsound. As Scott pointed out, being omnipotent does not mean being able to do anything. Here is a definition for omnipotence...

Definition: Person A is omnipotent if and only if person A can do what he wills.

Once the definition is provided for omnipotence, then the sting is taken out of the question in relation to the property of being omnipotent. If I were an atheist, upon hearing this response I would ask: Can God will to create a rock too heavy to lift? Now, my reponse would be that God cannot will to create any object that has contradictory properties. The property of being a rock and the property of being "too heavy for God to lift" are not compatible. Again, if I were an atheist I would ask: Why are these two properties contradictory?

Does anyone care to give this last question a go?

Brian

BobVigneault · #20 (**permalink**) 07-10-2007, 03:26 PM

Yes, Brian, I see what you did there. (Whispering - I haven't got a clue what he's talking about). I arrived at pretty much the same conclusion. Here is how I got there:

Civbert · #21 (**permalink**) 07-10-2007, 04:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brian Bosse

...
Definition: Person A is omnipotent if and only if person A can do what he wills.
...
Again, if I were an atheist I would ask: Why are these two properties contradictory?

Does anyone care to give this last question a go?

Brian

Excellent question. I think I have a more elegant solution than my first answer - which also answers your question.

First I would define omnipotent as being able to do whatever is logically possible. Thus an omnipotent being can not make a square circle. Now I can apply this to the rock. Is the rock in question logically possible?

Can a rock have a mass so great that no force can move it?

All physical objects have a definite mass. The force to move it would be simply the mass times the acceleration caused by lift. No matter how great the mass, there is a calculable force that can move it.

In the case of the rock, the force to move it would be the force necessary to overcome gravity - which is a function of the mass of the rock, and the mass of Earth (or whatever planet you wish).

Force = G x ( mass_earth x mass_rock) / Distance_center_mass^2

God can not make a rock so heavy that He can not lift it, because such a rock is itself a self-contradiction.

Joshua · #22 (**permalink**) 07-10-2007, 04:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BobVigneault

Yes, Brian, I see what you did there. (Whispering - I haven't got a clue what he's talking about). I arrived at pretty much the same conclusion. Here is how I got there:

I love you, man....and I don't want your stinkin' bud light, but I'll take a NewCastle.

x.spasitel · #23 (**permalink**) 07-10-2007, 09:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Civbert

First I would define omnipotent as being able to do whatever is logically possible. Thus an omnipotent being can not make a square circle.

I have rather a problem with that assertion. It places logic as the supreme ruler of the universe, a force which even God is subject to. God dwells beyond the bounds of human logic, and if He wanted to show our pathetically simple minds a square circle He could and would. The point is that a human mind cannot comprehend a square circle, not that God is beyond that ability, if that were His holy will. God, of course, cannot lie, so within our human universe to do something contrary to the logic of our universe would be contrary to His position as creator of our universe. But beyond what we know, there is nothing in human logic that constrains God.