Secular humanism, for all practical purposes and with an eye towards the long run, is dead and dying. Humanists for the past 40 years have been aborting (read liquidating) their voting bloc. They still have a grasp on Christians in the public arena, and the next 10 years will be grim, but they have woken up to the battle about 10 years too late. At best they can only mount a rear-guard action.

Islam, however, is on the rise. Christendom defeated Islam in the 8th century, and I believe, for reasons I won't get into here (email me offline), we will replay that scenario on a larger scale. We will have another conflict between Islam and Christianity (hopefully only an intellectual conflict).

Islam has defeated secularism in Europe (I don't know if that's a good thing or not). Europe has a low birth rate whereas Islam repopulates rather quickly. Europe will be practically gone, culturally speaking, in ten years.

So, back to Trevor's posts. I don't fully agree with him that we need to all learn Arabic, nor should Arabic take precedence over Latin, but he is right to point out the growing cultural power.

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J. B. Atken
John Knox PCA
Layman, M.A. student at Louisiana College

It's certainly going to be interesting when the population begins to threaten the welfare state. We're already seeing the cracks. Witness what happened when that movie director was killed by Muslims in Holland. I think the intellectuals are pretty cowed and impotent but much of the populace (that for now still is majority) may become increasingly agitated and violent. Remember, Europe's godlessness brought us the Holocaust. I wouldn't put anything past them now.

I have a friend that actually had a pretty good idea. Much of the reason Europe needs Muslims is a labor force. My friend only half-jokingly thought about writing the Pope and encouraging him to have European countries encourage immigration of people from the Phillipines. That's got to be one of the greatest anomalies on this planet: a population of greatly underprivileged people that are hard-working and have a great attitude about life. Somebody pointed out to me one time that, in the futurisitc book Starship Troopers, the world language is Tagalic. Anyway, just a thought.

We'll see. It's really hard to say. Arabic muslims actually don't even constitute the majority of the Muslim population - they just make most of the noise. It's actually in the Pacific and Africa where most reside. Arab Muslims also don't do themselves any favors in terms of their cultural and religious imperialism. They walk around with huge chips on their shoulder and have made whining about other people causing them woe a virtual art.

Islam itself, in the Middle East countries with oil, breeds laziness. I honestly cannot conceive of a lazier people than Arabic Muslims. I joked in another thread about a wonder of the Muslim world that is designed by Westerners and built by Third Country Nationals. There are always exceptions but, as a general rule, their work ethic stinks. They import all their labor because they have the resources to do so. Honestly, if we ever become energy independent and that region becomes impoverished again, it will be a backwater like it was for centuries. Their religion has infected them with a sloth that will eventually lead to their impoverishment. The UAE knows the writing is on the wall, which is why they're trying to become a financial and tourism mecca but that won't benefit the entire populace unless you fix the basic philosophy that breeds such laziness.

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Rich
Okinawa, Japan

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I am away from my files at the moment, but Herman Bavinck actually wrote a warning against Islam almost 100 years ago. I think I know where it is when I get back to my study.

I hate to disagree with you Jacob, since I usually find myself in agreement with you, but I believe that it was humanism that has ravaged Christianity over the last couple hundred years and made our message impotent. I believe that we need to root out the humanism in our churches first so we can then mount an effective fight against Islam. BTW, I have some Muslim friends and they seem very willing to discuss the Bible with me since they have a respect for the prophets, most humanist that I talk to, and many of them are Christians, don't have any interest in being corrected by the Bible.

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David Morrow
Faith Community Church
Kansas City, MO
http://presupposetheism.blogspot.com

Here's a big weenie statement for you: I agree with all of you.

Humanism: a major stumbling block to Christianity insofar as it has infected the church. And yes, while they devour their own young and don't really even reproduce at a replacement rate, they indoctrinate anyone they can get their hands on in the public school system. Going to battle with Islam without first weeding this out of our churches is like taking to the field with wet powder in your barrels. No spark, no fire, and lots of hand to hand combat in your own trenches real quick like.

Islam: anyone who knows middle eastern history from about 700AD on and DIDN'T see this coming has some serious issues. The modern methods are even more sinister (to me) because of the absence of violence compared to the early days. It's easy. Step 1: immigrate. Step 2: populate. Step 3: dictate.

Europe: my relatives in Holland say there are many who are really ticked off about the Muslim issue there (even liberals!). Tolerance is one thing, but having a minority dictate a new menu to the health care system because some pots and utensils may have been used to previously prepare pork is just a little over the top.

The growth/prevelence/power of Islam in Europe is also feeding the fires of the White Power groups. When the liberals won't do anything to stop it, many see it as time to move in with Jean-Marie LePenn (sp?) and right wingers of a more violent breed because they're the only ones who actually speak up. I remember as a teen in Canada seeing a communist/liberal/socialist demonstration take place and the only ones who said anything or protested against it were the skinheads. When they are the moral compass of the nation, it's time to dig that bunker.

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Kevin
Far East
Deacon, Int'l Church

Nolite id cogere, cape malleum majorem - Don't force it, get a bigger hammer

Luke sum ipse patrem te - Luke, I am your father.

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Bob Vigneault (Bawb Vēēn-yo)
I just know there's got to be a pony in here somewhere!

The Heartbeat of Heaven (blog) MySpace (Music), MySpace (Personal)
Member of Christ Presbyterian Church, Janesville, WI OPC www.christ-opc.org

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Davidius
Husband of Emilia
Member: First Reformed Presbyterian Church of Durham (RPCNA) - Durham, NC
Student: University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill, German Literature and Classics

This may explain the old adage about Baptists being Methodists with shoes, and Presbyterians being Baptists who can read. To round out the adage, Lutherans might qualify as Presbyterians who drink to excess, and Episcopalians as Lutherans who know when to say when. - D.G. Hart

La tajaalahu. Istaamil shakoosh akbar! - Don't force it. Use a bigger hammer!

Ya Luka! Taal ila hizb al-muthlim! - Luke! Come to the dark side!

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Brian Kooshian
Member, Reformed Baptist Church of Holland
Zeeland, MI
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"I once was an Armenian Arminian. Now I'm an Armenian Calvinist!"

Good point about the rising cultural influence of Islam. They have a disproportionate amount of influence and representation in the media, the banking cartel, the defense department, hollywood, etc. with which they have continually spread their antichrist ideology, destroying both our minds and our health... oh wait I'm thinking about the Eskimos aren't I.

Oh well, in any event you can't blame the vessels (be they Muslims or Eskimos) that God uses to chasten his people and bring them to repentance.

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Chad
He that putteth not out his money to usury, nor taketh reward against the innocent. He that doeth these things shall never be moved. (Psalms 15:5 KJV)

Good sentence and food for thought.

__________________
Ivan Schoen, Pastor
Maranatha Baptist Church
Poplar Grove, Illinois USA
http://maranatha-sbc.org/
Husband to Nancy
Father to Sherril, Sarah, Kathryn
Grandfather to Phillip
Faith is the refusal to panic. Martyn Lloyd-Jones

Didn't God chasten Israel with Assyria, then turn around and rebuke Assyria for its brutality against Israel? (Is. 10:5 ff.)

Islam is a heinous, blasphemous, and corrupt religion. How can it be anything other than blameworthy in the sight of God, and therefore in the sight of His people? I do not dispute that God is using Islam to chasten the West. However, it doesn't follow that since it is a tool in the hand of God, therefore we can't blame it for the damage it is doing to the West and to the world at large.

Is not the answer to convert them? When I went to the Church I attended for about 18 months in the North East I had a strange experience of a Muslim who attended (he was a carer of one of the congregation) attempted to convert me to Islam! This was at a time when I was living next to the largest Orthodox Jewish community outside of Jerusalem.

Know any good aplogetical resources to use with Muslims?

I'd have to say the biggest challenge is reforming the rampant liberalism in the church. In most churches, the message has been watered down to the point of becoming an endless litany of trite platitudes. There is no power of the Spirit in vapid words.

And this has been going on for a long time. In a sermon delivered back in 1930, Martin Lloyd-Jones said, "Indeed, I am not at all sure but that one of the very chief causes of the decline of church membership and and church-going is the fact that the church, in an attempt to conciliate and please the masses, has so diluted and devitalised the gospel of Christ, and has rendered it so innocuous that it is no longer even being considered by a large number of people as a possible theory of life...The church is regarded as a sort of dispensary where drugs and soothing mixtures are distributed and in which everyone should be eased and comforted. And the one theme of the church must be 'the love of God.'"

Any wonder that Islam is making inroads into the western world?

Islam isn't the biggest challenge we face.

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Michael Masztal
Chapel By The Sea, ARPC
Melbourne Beach, FL