Last night our fellowship group had several interesting discussions on the topic of walking in the Spirit vs. the sinful nature based on Galatians 5:16-26. One of those was whether unsaved persons can truly commit a selfless (or non-self-centered act). I argued that even apparent selfless acts (eg, giving time or money to the poor with no expectation of reward) are ultimately derived from fleshly impulses and are therefore both sinful and selfish, since they originate from flesh/self rather than the Spirit. Others in the group disagreed, saying that while the Holy Spirit may not indwell unsaved persons, He can still work in them to produce selfless acts. We ended up split on the issue, so I wanted to write here and see what the PB members think. Is it possible for an unregenerate person to perform a selfless act?

Thanks in advance for any thoughts...

__________________
Mason
Member, Redeemer Presbyterian Church (PCA)
New York, NY

"Come now, and let us reason together," says the Lord, "Though your sins are like scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they are red like crimson, they shall be as wool." - Isaiah 1:18

No, unsaved people cannot commit truly "self-less" acts. (But neither can saved people really).

__________________
Benjamin P. Glaser
Pittsburgh, PA
Fairmount ARP Church
Student of Theology
Pittsburgh Theological Seminary
Reformed Presbyterian Theological Seminary
My Blog

"Nothing is sweet to me without the enjoyment of Christ in it." -- Thomas Brooks

This oughta be an interesting thread.

Are unsaved people capable of selfless acts? I'm still trying to figure out if a saved person (ie., me) can perform selfless acts.

__________________
Bob Howes
Framingham, MA

A reoccurring thought:

Rev 22:20 He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus.

I think you guys are on to something. In a real intrinsic way it seems impossible for a selfless act. It is perhaps a question that need not be explored. We could however conclude that only those with the Spirit can perform deeds pleasing to God.

__________________
Bruce
PCUSA
Ocean City NJ

I would argue believers can perform truly selfless acts, just as they can also perform "good" acts, which is a part of the fruit of the Spirit. The act would only be good or selfless if it is led by the Holy Spirit.

__________________
Mason
Member, Redeemer Presbyterian Church (PCA)
New York, NY

"Come now, and let us reason together," says the Lord, "Though your sins are like scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they are red like crimson, they shall be as wool." - Isaiah 1:18

IMHO, this is the only important part that needs to be recognized. Whether it meets the definition of "selfless" or not is rather irrelevant - it is still sin.

__________________
Jeremy Gage
First Baptist Church
Durham, NC

"No heart can conceive that treasury of mercies which lies in this one privilege, in having liberty and ability to approach unto God at all times, according to his mind and will." - John Owen

Believers cannot reach perfection so everything they do is selfish, whether they "think" they are being selfless or not.

__________________
Benjamin P. Glaser
Pittsburgh, PA
Fairmount ARP Church
Student of Theology
Pittsburgh Theological Seminary
Reformed Presbyterian Theological Seminary
My Blog

"Nothing is sweet to me without the enjoyment of Christ in it." -- Thomas Brooks

I really struggle with this, I am sure those of us with unsaved loved ones feel the same.

I have two ways of looking at this, firstly as someone has already mentioned I am not sure that I am capable of selfless acts, I try but sin is so purvasive in my motivations.

Secondly someone once explained to me that the unsaved are capable of "good" (but is this selfless?) but such good is not meritorious.

I will be interested in what others say.

__________________
Mike
London City Presbyterian Church
London
England

"Surely, we wish to be orthodox, but we must first learn what real orthodoxy is. Surely, we wish to be progressive, but we must first have a basis to progress from."

How can one define "good" outside of Christ?

__________________
Benjamin P. Glaser
Pittsburgh, PA
Fairmount ARP Church
Student of Theology
Pittsburgh Theological Seminary
Reformed Presbyterian Theological Seminary
My Blog

"Nothing is sweet to me without the enjoyment of Christ in it." -- Thomas Brooks

An unsaved soldier jumping on a grenade to save his friends is a good act. Or an unsaved firefighter saving a baby from a burning building.

Good does not mean meritorious and I think that God's commmon grace allows these acts and that God even gives the strength in the unbeleiver to prform these acts.

Of course, there is enough sin in the prayers of the saints to damn them.... but I do think we can call some acts "good" whoever they are performed by, even if only a civil good.

__________________
Pergamum


"If a commission by an earthly king is considered a honor, how can a commission by a Heavenly King be considered a sacrifice?"
-- David Livingstone

__________________
~etexas~

But what is good apart from Christ? Just because to the human eye something looks good does not make it so.

__________________
Benjamin P. Glaser
Pittsburgh, PA
Fairmount ARP Church
Student of Theology
Pittsburgh Theological Seminary
Reformed Presbyterian Theological Seminary
My Blog

"Nothing is sweet to me without the enjoyment of Christ in it." -- Thomas Brooks

This is why I don't believe unsaved people can perform good or selfless acts. I understand the common grace argument, but it seems to me that common grace restrains people from complete evil rather than causing them to do good (ie, good in Christ).

__________________
Mason
Member, Redeemer Presbyterian Church (PCA)
New York, NY

"Come now, and let us reason together," says the Lord, "Though your sins are like scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they are red like crimson, they shall be as wool." - Isaiah 1:18

God doesn't have to give strength to do "selfless" things, and while benefit may derive to someone from someone else's actions, the actions themselves aren't properly called "good". Many charities exist that are nothing more than people giving glory to the creature rather than God - and through them God does provide, while at the same time the unbelievers working for said charities are digging their own graves. To serve man only for the purpose of serving one's fellow man is sin - to give away one's worldly possessions in order to help out another person is nothing if Christ is not in it. We certainly can use the word "good" but recognize that it's only stubble without God's Spirit.

__________________
Todd K. Pedlar
member, First Congregational Church, (CCCC) Cresco, IA
http://semperubi.rtrc.net

"Many men, after a long conversion, see more of the workings of sin in their hearts than ever they did before or at their first conversion. Now, such men have not an increase of sin, but an increase of illumination and light" (Christopher Love)


Click to get: Board Rules -- Signature Requirements -- Suggestions?