I understand there are many dispy theories, but the dispies I know tend to speak in a "being under grace vs. being under the law" and that Jews (outside of those who convert to Christianity) will not see the kingdom of heaven.

This line of thinking would seem to plant the seeds of negating the Jewish story.

Thnaks in advance.

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Michael Masztal
H.S. Science Teacher at Community Christian School, Melbourne, FL
Member, Chapel By The Sea, ARP
Melbourne Beach, FL

I don't understand your subject line and don't quite understand your message either, unless your point is that Hagee and those who agree with him are the only consistent dispensationalists.

Supercessionism is what they charge covenant theologians with.

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Chris
OPC member
Now attending Grace Community Baptist Church
Mandeville, LA

"Faith alone saves, but it is a faith that works." - S. Lewis Johnson

I happen to fall into the "dispy" camp ( I appreciate that probably puts me in a minority on this board) and I assure you that I would prefer to distance myself as far away from Hagee as I can get...

I would have to agree in part with your statement regarding the dispensation of grace and of law, although dispensationalism is more detailed than that in its entirety.

"For the Law was given through Moses; grace and truth were realized through Jesus Christ." (John 1:17 NASB)

BTW my preferred version is the NASB, or as I noticed one person on this board refer to it "The Yoda Version"

"I do not nullify the grace of God, for if righteousness comes through the Law, then Christ died needlessly." (Galatians 2:21 NASB)

"The Law came in so that the transgression would increase; but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more." (Romans 5:20 NASB)

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Pastor Chris Surber, M.A.R.
First Congregational Church
Peru, Illinois USA
[url]www.1stperu.org[/url]
"Prayer is as natural an expression of faith as breathing is of life." - Jonathan Edwards

I don't think that the dispensational view negates the Jewish story. It is merely that the New Covenant was in a sense rejected by Israel as a people and given to the Church in terms of the elect who have been called to repentance and faith. Salvation is in Christ alone.

__________________
Pastor Chris Surber, M.A.R.
First Congregational Church
Peru, Illinois USA
[url]www.1stperu.org[/url]
"Prayer is as natural an expression of faith as breathing is of life." - Jonathan Edwards

That's an unwarranted translation. "Were realized" has no basis in the original Greek.

This text does not support dispensationalism for the simple reason that the text does not speak of two distinct periods. The evangelist teaches, "And of His fulness have ALL WE received, and grace for grace." Hence grace and truth also came by the pre-incarnate Word even at the period when the law came by Moses. The only-begotten Son in the bosom of the Father is the true revelation of God at all times.

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Yours sincerely,


"Illum oportet crescere me autem minui."

That's interesting and I appreciate your thoughts very much. But, does the absence of a direct indication toward dispensationalism in this case necessarily negate the system in its entirety?

To my understanding at least, neither the covenantal view nor the dispensation view are able to stand on any one verse alone - though I suspect that some covenantalists may use Jeremiah 31:31 as a crux in their system just as I might hinge much theology around John 1:17.

__________________
Pastor Chris Surber, M.A.R.
First Congregational Church
Peru, Illinois USA
[url]www.1stperu.org[/url]
"Prayer is as natural an expression of faith as breathing is of life." - Jonathan Edwards

No, the negation of one text doesn't disprove the whole system; although in this case, if it is accepted that grace came through Jesus Christ in the Mosaic economy, it is impossible to prove the law-covenant was something other than the covenant of grace without contradicting oneself. I think if we went through all the prooftexts urged by dispensationalists each and every one of them could be shown to refer to another dispensation of the covenant of grace rather than to an altogether different covenant. Blessings!

__________________
Yours sincerely,


"Illum oportet crescere me autem minui."

hmmm... that is interesting. I'd like to know more about Covenantal Theology. Having been trained at a thoroughly Dispensational School (Liberty Baptist Theological Seminary) I know my own system well but I don't know as much as I would like to know about yours.

I am looking forward to taking some time to learn more about it in the future. Don't know if I'll come over to your side, but I have found it very helpful and wise to be versed in as many sides of a given thing as possible rather than being territorial over my preconceptions...

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Pastor Chris Surber, M.A.R.
First Congregational Church
Peru, Illinois USA
[url]www.1stperu.org[/url]
"Prayer is as natural an expression of faith as breathing is of life." - Jonathan Edwards

May I recommend for a good starting point Robert Shaw's commentary on the Westminster Confession, chapter 7. All the basics of covenant theology are simply stated and biblical support amply provided. Blessings!

__________________
Yours sincerely,


"Illum oportet crescere me autem minui."

Thanks. I will look into that.

__________________
Pastor Chris Surber, M.A.R.
First Congregational Church
Peru, Illinois USA
[url]www.1stperu.org[/url]
"Prayer is as natural an expression of faith as breathing is of life." - Jonathan Edwards