Thread: Should we use wine during the Lord's Supper if 15% of members are in recovery

This may have been fleshed out else where...if so please point me in the right direction. This may be a better fit in another forum...

Our church supports an alcohol and drug recovery program which makes up about 15% of church membership. Our church gives the option of wine or grape juice on the same tray. It is known that those in recovery struggle when the elements are passed around.

Our session is in discussion on this, but would you:

1. Keep wine as an option based on Biblical command

or

2. Use only grape juice as an option to keep those from struggling that are members.

Option 1.

I am not convinced that a thimble full of wine actually causes anyone to stumble. That seems to be taken for granted these days but I am unaware of any scientific (or biblical for that matter) evidence. I am willing to be convinced otherwise, however.

I'm not sure it's a matter of choice but more a matter of authority. By what authority should we change the elements of the Lord's Supper?

Originally Posted by Michael Turner

I'm not sure it's a matter of choice but more a matter of authority. By what authority should we change the elements of the Lord's Supper?

What's the minimum percentage of alcohol allowed by scripture?

100% of your membership is in recovery from the dominion of sin. If wine is a problem for some before the Lord's table, then abstaining from it is wise- until they learn that it is the heart of man, and not dumb objects, that are the root of sin.

Theognome

Use the wine, as Scripture commands.

Originally Posted by Theognome

100% of your membership is in recovery from the dominion of sin. If wine is a problem for some before the Lord's table, then abstaining from it is wise- until they learn that it is the heart of man, and not dumb objects, that are the root of sin.

Theognome

I wholeheartedly agree. I would rather give the third option, the table is to be all wine, and those that are in recovery need to practice self control. We are all in recovery of one kind or another. Should the churches with 15% of the people in recovery from sexual sin separate the men from the women so as not to tempt those who are susceptible (which might be everyone but eunuchs and the very old)?

While it might be more difficult for a person that is particularly susceptible to drunkenness to have a small sip of wine during the table, it might be worse for them to not partake of the LS because the elements are not as commanded. The RPW takes precedence over weakness, and the LS is a means of grace in which those that are having problems with self-control might gain strength. If 15% need extra help, then perhaps they should stay after the service for 6 to 8 hours with those who are strong to wait until the minimal amount of alcohol is metabolized so they no longer have any physical excuse for sin.

Remember, alcohol is not sin in itself, so this is not the same thing as flee the adulterous woman. If someone is truly recovered, they will not need to flee alcohol, they will exercise self-control in the midst of it.

My presbyterian congregation celebrates The Lords Supper on the first Sunday of each month during both our worship services. We serve wine and grapjuice. I take the inner cups filled with wine however there are a small number in our congration who take the thimble cup from the outer rim where there is a few thimbles of grape juice. But I think as most on this forum that wine is the bilical command.

Dudley

Were there no alcoholics in the New Testament that converted?

Originally Posted by Roldan

Were there no alcoholics in the New Testament that converted?

During the time the NT was written, drunkards were called 'sinners', and sinners were constantly being converted. Modern humanism calls it 'Alcoholism', and that it is a disease- thus sin is not involved. So no, there were no alcoholics converted in the NT.

Theognome

Didn't we just have a thread on the bread of the Lord's Supper. If we allow variance in bread, why not in the cup?

Originally Posted by Pergamum

Didn't we just have a thread on the bread of the Lord's Supper. If we allow variance in bread, why not in the cup?

Unrelated issues, actually. The use of grape juice didn't even exist until Dr. Welch first pasteurized the stuff in the late 19th century. Even then, it didn't catch on in evangelical circles until the Temperance Movement took hold of the Church. Simply put, the whole use of grape juice at the LS is, in it's most basic argument, that drunkeness isn't a sin- it's a disease; and that is a bold-face denial of the Word of God.

Theognome

Originally Posted by Pergamum

Didn't we just have a thread on the bread of the Lord's Supper. If we allow variance in bread, why not in the cup?

Pergy,

I appreciate the thought, and while I don't think "we" should allow variance in the bread (if you look at my responses, it is not my decision to make, it is the elders that make it) even those that argued the bread could be leavened, the almost universal position was that wine ought to be used as it is commanded.

Originally Posted by Pergamum

Didn't we just have a thread on the bread of the Lord's Supper. If we allow variance in bread, why not in the cup?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but variance in the bread is still basically bread. We're not talking about using a different brand of wine, we're talking about not using wine at all! Grape juice is not a variant of wine it is something totally different. (If you disagree just try to serve wine to the kids in the nursery and tell all those angry parents that it's just a different kind of grape juice! ) That is clearly unbiblical, and as Theognome pointed out, a very recent innovation.

Our church had a wonderful dinner tonight with a visiting missionary. A family in our church who makes wine brought me a bottle with a custom label.

Preacher's Reserve
Valentine's Creek
For the Totally Depraved, Unconditionally Elect sinner who
by Limited Atonement was drawn by Irresistible Grace in the
Perseverance of the Saints.
AMEN

Back to the topic - We discussed that when we went to wine. Problems with alcohol are a repercussion of sin and do not dictate the normal practices of the church of Christ. They have to deal with the repercussions of their sin and overcome them. Therefore, we do not cater to them. If we did then we would have to cater to everyone in some manner.

Originally Posted by Hamalas

Originally Posted by Pergamum

Didn't we just have a thread on the bread of the Lord's Supper. If we allow variance in bread, why not in the cup?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but variance in the bread is still basically bread. We're not talking about using a different brand of wine, we're talking about not using wine at all! Grape juice is not a variant of wine it is something totally different. (If you disagree just try to serve wine to the kids in the nursery and tell all those angry parents that it's just a different kind of grape juice! ) That is clearly unbiblical, and as Theognome pointed out, a very recent innovation.

Can we dilute the wine then with water? We are not changing it to juice, but only adding water to it? This seems akin to the differences in using varying kinds of bread. It's still wine, just extra-weak.

Originally Posted by Wannabee

Our church had a wonderful dinner tonight with a visiting missionary. A family in our church who makes wine brought me a bottle with a custom label.

Preacher's Reserve
Valentine's Creek
For the Totally Depraved, Unconditionally Elect sinner who
by Limited Atonement was drawn by Irresistible Grace in the
Perseverance of the Saints.
AMEN

Back to the topic - We discussed that when we went to wine. Problems with alcohol are a repercussion of sin and do not dictate the normal practices of the church of Christ. They have to deal with the repercussions of their sin and overcome them. Therefore, we do not cater to them. If we did then we would have to cater to everyone in some manner.

I am in the minority in that I don't think we should necessarily 'avoid' temptation anyway. James says, "Blessed is the man that 'endureth' temptation."

Originally Posted by Pergamum

Originally Posted by Hamalas

Originally Posted by Pergamum

Didn't we just have a thread on the bread of the Lord's Supper. If we allow variance in bread, why not in the cup?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but variance in the bread is still basically bread. We're not talking about using a different brand of wine, we're talking about not using wine at all! Grape juice is not a variant of wine it is something totally different. (If you disagree just try to serve wine to the kids in the nursery and tell all those angry parents that it's just a different kind of grape juice! ) That is clearly unbiblical, and as Theognome pointed out, a very recent innovation.

Can we dilute the wine then with water? We are not changing it to juice, but only adding water to it? This seems akin to the differences in using varying kinds of bread. It's still wine, just extra-weak.

What is the benefit of it being 'weak'?

Originally Posted by KMK

Originally Posted by Pergamum

Originally Posted by Hamalas

Correct me if I'm wrong, but variance in the bread is still basically bread. We're not talking about using a different brand of wine, we're talking about not using wine at all! Grape juice is not a variant of wine it is something totally different. (If you disagree just try to serve wine to the kids in the nursery and tell all those angry parents that it's just a different kind of grape juice! ) That is clearly unbiblical, and as Theognome pointed out, a very recent innovation.

Can we dilute the wine then with water? We are not changing it to juice, but only adding water to it? This seems akin to the differences in using varying kinds of bread. It's still wine, just extra-weak.

What is the benefit of it being 'weak'?

What is the benefit of it being strong?

Originally Posted by Hamalas

Grape juice is not a variant of wine it is something totally different.

Could you define for me the moment the juice of squeezed grapes (grape juice) becomes wine? Is it when there is .001% alcohol?

Originally Posted by Pergamum

Originally Posted by KMK

Originally Posted by Pergamum

Can we dilute the wine then with water? We are not changing it to juice, but only adding water to it? This seems akin to the differences in using varying kinds of bread. It's still wine, just extra-weak.

What is the benefit of it being 'weak'?

What is the benefit of it being strong?

You said you wanted to dilute the wine with water. Why go to the extra effort to change the wine before it is served?

Originally Posted by Whitefield

Originally Posted by Hamalas

Grape juice is not a variant of wine it is something totally different.

Could you define for me the moment the juice of squeezed grapes (grape juice) becomes wine? Is it when there is .001% alcohol?

When it has the ability to make you drunk?

Originally Posted by KMK

Originally Posted by Whitefield

Originally Posted by Hamalas

Grape juice is not a variant of wine it is something totally different.

Could you define for me the moment the juice of squeezed grapes (grape juice) becomes wine? Is it when there is .001% alcohol?

When it has the ability to make you drunk?

Ok.

Couple of points here. I remember when I was a kid whenever my dad would go "on the wagon" if he had one drop of alcohol it would cause him to stumble, so I am tempted to make a knee-jerk statement here: if the lack of alcohol in the "wine" doesn't cause it to be improperly used in communion (I don't know whether it does or not) then perhaps it's best to just use grape juice. In his case, the love of alcohol was perceived as a disease, but really there were other issues going on. The alcohol brought him great comfort and that's what he really wanted - so in his case, there was a repentance issue, not just of the sin of overindulgence but of idolatry.

There were others in this thread who asked when wine becomes wine. I have read (and cannot locate a supporting link) that wine back in ancient times was frequently watered down and could have been much weaker than what we have now. I have also heard that it was useful because while water could be stagnant and foul, wine, due to the alcohol, was less likely to make one sick. I am sure someone here can confirm or disprove that.

Just as it is harmful to drink wine alone or water alone, whereas mixing wine with water makes a more pleasant drink that increases delight, so a skillfully composed story delights the ears of those who read the work. Let this, then, be the end.

From 2 Maccabees 15, written about 150 years BC, Rich.

Should they use bread if 15% are obese due to carb addiction?

-----Added 8/15/2009 at 11:11:27 EST-----

cap locks on.... sorry

I was an alcoholic for 15 years before converted and called to the ministry. I drink wine during the LS and have a glass during meals sometimes and a beer at the game. Alcoholism is sin, not a disease. If someone is struggling with a bit of wine during the Lords Supper, when his focus should be on Christ and his finished work, then there are clearly other issues that need to be focused on with this brother or sister.

Originally Posted by KMK

Originally Posted by Whitefield

Originally Posted by Hamalas

Grape juice is not a variant of wine it is something totally different.

Could you define for me the moment the juice of squeezed grapes (grape juice) becomes wine? Is it when there is .001% alcohol?

When it has the ability to make you drunk?

Thanks. I had asked essentially the same question up at post 4, and hadn't gotten an answer from the AWOs (Alcoholic Wine Onlys).

So the stronger the wine, the better? Thunderbird or Mad Dog 2020 is better than a lower alcohol version?

option 2, we need to stop being so legalistic.

Causing brothers to stumble over some secondary issue is nuts.

Although its entirely possible that wine only is the best way to serve the Lord's Supper, I do think it could be profitable for proponents of that approach to exercise charity towards their struggling brothers or sisters. Alcoholism is a sin, but its also an addiction and is really hard to kick (as are many sins). I'm not saying we shouldn't have wine, but too often I've seen a blustering, "Well, just get over it" approach to individuals who struggle with resisting addiction when coming to the Lord's Table.

As to those who say that a thimble full of wine doesn't tempt an alcoholic - You're quite fortunate that you've never experienced a consuming addiction. Alcoholism runs in my family, and I've seen my uncles and grandfather struggle horribly with resisting drinking to excess. If they attended churches where wine was served, I'm quite certain that they would not take the LS - or perhaps only take the bread.

Our church places wine in the outer ring of the tray, and grape juice in the middle rings. Thus, the congregants can choose which they take when it is passed.

I'm not sure this is the right solution either, since it has the "flavor" of consumerism and individualism, leaving it to each individual to decide.

Thoughts on this practice?

I believe that wine and unleavened bread should be used for the Lord's Supper, but I do struggle over the issue with using wine it comes to alcoholics.

I lost a good friend due to health complications brought on by years of alcohol abuse. My friend did not become a believer until he was well into his 40s and he died at 50. The damage was done. Prior to his conversion, he was drinking almost more than he was eating, and trying to break that habit was extremely difficult. One sip of wine at communion literally did send him back to the alcohol.

In short, my friend finally was able to quit drinking and managed to stay sober for months. At the end of that time, he was put in the hospital to have surgery to correct some of the damage brought on by drinking. The doctor's told him that if he started to drink again, it would kill him. One of the first things he did after spending 3 months in the hospital was to go back to church. He was so glad to be back with believers and to participate in the Lord's supper, he drank the wine. He didn't think a little sip of wine would make that much difference. It did. He started drinking again. Although the return to drink didn't last long, and he completely repented, the damage was done, and he died within a couple of months.

I know that personal experience makes no difference when it comes to a discussion of right and wrong. I also know that my friend's case is extreme in more ways than I have described here, and his story can not be used as a blanket reason for using grape juice instead of wine.

Do we deny a person like that the privilege of participating in the Lord's Table because we think they are too weak? Aren't we all too weak? Isn't that why we go to the table in the first place? We do it to call to mind our sinfulness and to joyfully remember and thank God for His forgiveness. What would have been correct thing for my friend to do? Abstain from the commandment of the Lord to participate? Or should he have trusted the Lord to keep him from falling into sin? Was he willing sinning by taking a sip of wine at the Lord's Table? He certainly had demonstrated a repentant heart when he approached the table; he'd been off the wine for months.

I realized I haven't answered any of the questions in the original post, but I felt I should share what goes on in my mind when the topic comes up.

Could you define for me the moment the juice of squeezed grapes (grape juice) becomes wine? Is it when there is .001% alcohol?
When it has the ability to make you drunk?

"When it has the ability to make you drunk" is no definition at all. I drink so little that I start to feel an effect after a ridiculously small amount -- others need a vat.

Originally Posted by mvdm

Our church places wine in the outer ring of the tray, and grape juice in the middle rings. Thus, the congregants can choose which they take when it is passed.

I'm not sure this is the right solution either, since it has the "flavor" of consumerism and individualism, leaving it to each individual to decide.

Thoughts on this practice?

To the OP: Has anyone in recovery asked for a non alcoholic option? Or do they just quietly leave during the LS? Another consideration for the Wine Only folks: There are also people who are medically unable to drink ANY alcohol (certain anti seizure meds or anyone on Antabuse will have complications if they consume wine or any alcohol). Or there may be a church member or guest who is on parole and who cannot have ANY alcohol as a condition of their parole. So the practice your church use will allow these folks to take the Lord's Supper.

Originally Posted by mvdm

Our church places wine in the outer ring of the tray, and grape juice in the middle rings. Thus, the congregants can choose which they take when it is passed.

I'm not sure this is the right solution either, since it has the "flavor" of consumerism and individualism, leaving it to each individual to decide.

Thoughts on this practice?

I think you have well identified the issue raised by doing this, but my personal leanings presently are toward such a practice.

"When it has the ability to make you drunk" is no definition at all. I drink so little that I start to feel an effect after a ridiculously small amount -- others need a vat.

Jenny that's the idea. To feel an effect.

PS, wasn't it a fellow Scotsman who said you should quit when your can no longer feel your teeth?

Originally Posted by TimV

"When it has the ability to make you drunk" is no definition at all. I drink so little that I start to feel an effect after a ridiculously small amount -- others need a vat.

Jenny that's the idea. To feel an effect.

PS, wasn't it a fellow Scotsman who said you should quit when your can no longer feel your teeth?

I have no idea who said that, Tim! It sounds the sort of thing a Scot might say.
But what was your point? I don't think I understand.

Alcohol is a major stumbling block for many people.

I have seen a grown man cry before communion because he feared any amount of alcohol.

Would God be displeased if a church elder used grape juice in order to prevent a weaker brother from stumbling?

If you serve 20 reformed alcoholics wine, are you certain that none of them will stumble?

What about people who can't tolerate any alcohol at all because of allergy? Are they in jeopardy because they can't "properly" partake in the Lord's Supper?

Is the attitude towards communion more important than the actual alcohol content of the wine?

Originally Posted by Bookmeister

I was an alcoholic for 15 years before converted and called to the ministry. I drink wine during the LS and have a glass during meals sometimes and a beer at the game. Alcoholism is sin, not a disease. If someone is struggling with a bit of wine during the Lords Supper, when his focus should be on Christ and his finished work, then there are clearly other issues that need to be focused on with this brother or sister.

Why can't it be both?

Originally Posted by calgal

Originally Posted by mvdm

Our church places wine in the outer ring of the tray, and grape juice in the middle rings. Thus, the congregants can choose which they take when it is passed.

I'm not sure this is the right solution either, since it has the "flavor" of consumerism and individualism, leaving it to each individual to decide.

Thoughts on this practice?

To the OP: Has anyone in recovery asked for a non alcoholic option? Or do they just quietly leave during the LS? Another consideration for the Wine Only folks: There are also people who are medically unable to drink ANY alcohol (certain anti seizure meds or anyone on Antabuse will have complications if they consume wine or any alcohol). Or there may be a church member or guest who is on parole and who cannot have ANY alcohol as a condition of their parole. So the practice your church use will allow these folks to take the Lord's Supper.

I'm not the OP, but our policy (after we switched to wine) was that we would only do wine until and unless someone asked us to make grape juice available again. That eventually did happen, and we had both grape juice and wine available for a time. That member moved away due to work some time afterward, and it wasn't long before we switched back to wine only.

Your questions regarding the medical inability to have alcohol are interesting. There's an application for the bread there as well (for instance, those with wheat allergies).

While I think we want to follow the Scriptures in the use of the physical elements, I believe we also have to be aware of making the physical elements paramount.