Theological ForumSystematic Theology, Biblical Theology and just plain Theology discussions Grow in the grace and the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ (2 Pe. 3:18)
Is it possible for a person to want/desire to know Christ as his/her Savior and not be among the elect?
__________________
Joel Batts
Christ Presbyterian Church (PCA) - Memphis, TN
I believe that many would find that the heart sings unbidden while they are working their way through a tough bit of theology with a pipe in their teeth and a pencil in their hand. - CS Lewis
Is it possible for a person to want/desire to know Christ as his/her Savior and not be among the elect?
True desire to know Christ for the right reasons is given as the gift of God, through the Spirit. I don't think there can be any doubt about that. Nobody is sent to hell against their will.
However, there are lots of reasons one might want to know Christ as his/her Savior but do so in a way that is self-serving or merely "hell-insurance". Most people don't want to go to hell if you ask them - and I suspect that
many might profess some sort of desire to know Christ (I can think of one person who is in the family of some folks at our church who I think is probably under this kind of a misapprehension). Such folks could be said to "want" or "desire" to know Christ - but their desire, their aimed-for end, is misplaced... and thus they'll not truly know him in a saving way.
"Many men, after a long conversion, see more of the workings of sin in their hearts than ever they did before or at their first conversion. Now, such men have not an increase of sin, but an increase of illumination and light" (Christopher Love)
Is it possible for a person to want/desire to know Christ as his/her Savior and not be among the elect?
True desire to know Christ for the right reasons is given as the gift of God, through the Spirit. I don't think there can be any doubt about that. Nobody is sent to hell against their will.
However, there are lots of reasons one might want to know Christ as his/her Savior but do so in a way that is self-serving or merely "hell-insurance". Most people don't want to go to hell if you ask them - and I suspect that
many might profess some sort of desire to know Christ (I can think of one person who is in the family of some folks at our church who I think is probably under this kind of a misapprehension). Such folks could be said to "want" or "desire" to know Christ - but their desire, their aimed-for end, is misplaced... and thus they'll not truly know him in a saving way.
You mean, they don't want redemption from sin necessarily...they want to live how they please and then say they knew Jesus to stay out of hell? Is that the kind of non-salvifiv desire to which you refer?
__________________
Joel Batts
Christ Presbyterian Church (PCA) - Memphis, TN
I believe that many would find that the heart sings unbidden while they are working their way through a tough bit of theology with a pipe in their teeth and a pencil in their hand. - CS Lewis
This passage would seem to indicate that some will be self-deceived in this manner.
__________________ James Helbert, Wytheville, VA
Providence Reformed Presbyterian Church, RPCUS TheBibleAlone.com / The Edinburgh Inn "Is this not a brand plucked from the fire?” - Zechariah 3:2
This passage would seem to indicate that some will be self-deceived in this manner.
Then can there really be any such thing as assurance of faith? I John gives evidences of saving faith, but my real question in the OP is that how can we really know we are His if there is the possibility we are being self-deceived?
__________________
Joel Batts
Christ Presbyterian Church (PCA) - Memphis, TN
I believe that many would find that the heart sings unbidden while they are working their way through a tough bit of theology with a pipe in their teeth and a pencil in their hand. - CS Lewis
No, one is not saved by the right desires, this confuses means with ends…cause and effect. In fact when God comes to a man, dead in sins and trespasses, we might add utterly and totally dead, He finds NO faith or repentance whatsoever. He speaks the Gospel and it is a “Let there be light” or “Lazarus come forth”. One is saved by Christ’s work alone, trusting in that is the breathing and heartbeat of the elect.
Secondly, one is no more saved by being self-serving than by pretending to be unself-serving, which is in fact self serving. No one can produce an unselfserving first cause. In fact man fallen cannot be anything but utterly self serving, either as an open sinner or pious false saint.
Do not let your ‘desires’ become a new work for you. Look and trust in Christ alone, nakedly, and do not look at your looking (faith in faith or trust in trust) which is to say stop not trusting in Him, which is to say don’t try to trust or not not trust in Him but LOOK to Him alone and then suddenly you are doing it. The life comes from His end not yours.
Do not look to election, the Father is to high for us. Look to Christ who is the revelation of the revealed God perfectly, listen to Him. One’s election is not found in election but in the Cross of Christ alone. If election was to be sought some other way then Christ need not be incarnate nor would we have need of the sacraments. To put it yet another way, the elect are not fixing their gaze upon election but Christ crucified and risen…all other “looking” is utterly vain and no peace (a fruit of the Spirit) can be had.
Blessings,
Larry
__________________
Larry Hughes
Geologist
Tates Creek PCA
Lexington, KY
PCA
Galatians 4:29, "But as at that time he who was born according to the flesh persecuted him who was born according to the Spirit, so it is now also."
Then can there really be any such thing as assurance of faith? I John gives evidences of saving faith, but my real question in the OP is that how can we really know we are His if there is the possibility we are being self-deceived?
Quote:
WCF - CHAPTER XVIII.
Of the Assurance of Grace and Salvation.
I. Although hypocrites, and other unregenerate men, may vainly deceive themselves with false hopes and carnal presumptions: of being in the favor of God and estate of salvation; which hope of theirs shall perish: yet such as truly believe in the Lord Jesus, and love him in sincerity, endeavoring to walk in all good conscience before him, may in this life be certainly assured that they are in a state of grace, and may rejoice in the hope of the glory of God: which hope shall never make them ashamed.
II. This certainty is not a bare conjectural and probably persuasion, grounded upon a fallible hope; but an infallible assurance of faith, founded upon the divine truth of the promises of salvation, the inward evidence of those graces unto which these promises are made, the testimony of the Spirit of adoption witnessing with our spirits that we are the children of God; which Spirit is the earnest of our inheritance, whereby we are sealed to the day of redemption.
III. This infallible assurance doth not so belong to the essence of faith but that a true believer may wait long and conflict with many difficulties before he be partaker of it: yet, being enabled by the Spirit to know the things which are freely given him of God, he may, without extraordinary revelation, in the right use of ordinary means, attain thereunto. And therefore it is the duty of everyone to give all diligence to make his calling and election sure; that thereby his heart may be enlarged in peace and joy in the Holy Ghost, in love and thankfulness to God, and in strength and cheerfulness in the duties of obedience, the proper fruits of this assurance: so far is it from inclining men to looseness.
IV. True believers may have the assurance of their salvation divers ways shaken, diminished, and intermitted; as, by negligence in preserving of it; by falling into some special sin, which woundeth the conscience, and grieveth the Spirit; by some sudden or vehement temptation; by God's withdrawing the light of his countenance and suffering even such as fear him to walk in darkness and to have no light: yet are they never utterly destitute of that seed of God, and life of faith, that love of Christ and the brethren, that sincerity of heart and conscience of duty, out of which, by the operation of the Spirit, this assurance may in due time be revived, and by the which, in the meantime, they are supported from utter despair.
I would also look to Scripture passages such as Galatians 5:16-25. The fruits of The Spirit are not produced in the lives of unbleivers. Remeber, Jesus said that "the tree will be known by it's fruit."
__________________ James Helbert, Wytheville, VA
Providence Reformed Presbyterian Church, RPCUS TheBibleAlone.com / The Edinburgh Inn "Is this not a brand plucked from the fire?” - Zechariah 3:2
No, one is not saved by the right desires, this confuses means with ends…cause and effect. In fact when God comes to a man, dead in sins and trespasses, we might add utterly and totally dead, He finds NO faith or repentance whatsoever. He speaks the Gospel and it is a “Let there be light” or “Lazarus come forth”. One is saved by Christ’s work alone, trusting in that is the breathing and heartbeat of the elect.
I gather my intent was confused in the reading. I hope you didn't take my meaning to be that one can "desire" onsself into the kingdom. My point was to answer the original question - which is to say that there are some who say "Lord, Lord" who claim a desire to know Christ, and even think they do, who are not of the elect, and will be disclaimed by Christ.
Most certainly salvation is fully of the Lord, and of Him alone, but there is a distinction between "true" and "false" faith, which is what the original question was getting at.
"Many men, after a long conversion, see more of the workings of sin in their hearts than ever they did before or at their first conversion. Now, such men have not an increase of sin, but an increase of illumination and light" (Christopher Love)
Is it possible for a person to want/desire to know Christ as his/her Savior and not be among the elect?
Yes. The parable of the soils speaks of this. They do not endure to the end. There are many of people as this. THe wheat and the tares also...
So how is assurance possible if we could simply be self-deceived our entire lives?
If one truly wants to know Christ as Saviour, does not the Saviour save?
__________________
Joel Batts
Christ Presbyterian Church (PCA) - Memphis, TN
I believe that many would find that the heart sings unbidden while they are working their way through a tough bit of theology with a pipe in their teeth and a pencil in their hand. - CS Lewis
Assurance is that subjective sense of confidence. From where does it arise? If from oneself, it is false. If he is trusting in the Word of God, something objective, that same Word promises him "peace" with God through the Lord Jesus Christ, strength through the means of grace to be sustained, the eternal love of God which cannot be taken away, the abiding presence of the Spirit (that also witnesses), the perils of sinful indulgence of the flesh, and the possibility of false-faith which is really self-satisfaction.
Self-deceived people do not really believe all that God has to say. They don't grow in grace. They do not, in fact, bear fruit unto righteousness. They sometimes grow up in the field (as tares) or alongside it (among the weeds).
If our assurance ebbs and flows, that is a more sure sign of its reality than its falsity. It gives evidence that we are living in between the ages--but we are ALIVE. We feel the effects of sin. Is it not a worrisome sign, if one has few incentives to self-examination, just invincible confidence (that is never shaken) of God's love? How shall one know the difference between that, and a faith of brass, stiff and lifeless?
Assurance is possible because the Word says it is. It is possible because it is a product of our relationship with God, and not some "element" of our lives, or pulsating corner of our hearts that we have "access" to. We have assurance of God's love after the same fashion that we have assurance of the love of our mothers, or of our spouses--by our mutual words and actions.
But what if there is deception? In human relations, that is possible. But I'm not responsible for the other person's deception, only my own, if I am the liar. Now. can God be a liar? Not at all, if we are to believe the Bible, if we are to believe him. Can I be a liar in that relationship? Yes. And if I am, only God can show me my falseness, if I refuse to question myself.
__________________ Rev. Bruce G. Buchanan
ChainOLakes Presbyterian Church, CentralLake, MI
Made both Lord and Christ--Jesus, the Destroyer Acts 2:36 - 1 Cor. 10:9-10 & 15:22-26 - Hebrews 2:9-15 - 1 John 3:8 - James 4:12
When posting friends, kindly bear those words of earthly wisdom in mind:
Oh, that God the gift would give us
To see ourselves as others see us. --Robert Burns, 1786 (modernized) ♦ ♦ ♦ ♦ ♦ ♦ ♦ ♦ ♦ ♦ Click to get: Board Rules -- Signature Requirements -- Suggestions? --
The Following 5 Users Say Thank You to Contra_Mundum For This Useful Post:
Assurance is that subjective sense of confidence. From where does it arise? If from oneself, it is false. If he is trusting in the Word of God, something objective, that same Word promises him "peace" with God through the Lord Jesus Christ, strength through the means of grace to be sustained, the eternal love of God which cannot be taken away, the abiding presence of the Spirit (that also witnesses), the perils of sinful indulgence of the flesh, and the possibility of false-faith which is really self-satisfaction.
Self-deceived people do not really believe all that God has to say. They don't grow in grace. They do not, in fact, bear fruit unto righteousness. They sometimes grow up in the field (as tares) or alongside it (among the weeds).
If our assurance ebbs and flows, that is a more sure sign of its reality than its falsity. It gives evidence that we are living in between the ages--but we are ALIVE. We feel the effects of sin. Is it not a worrisome sign, if one has few incentives to self-examination, just invincible confidence (that is never shaken) of God's love? How shall one know the difference between that, and a faith of brass, stiff and lifeless?
Assurance is possible because the Word says it is. It is possible because it is a product of our relationship with God, and not some "element" of our lives, or pulsating corner of our hearts that we have "access" to. We have assurance of God's love after the same fashion that we have assurance of the love of our mothers, or of our spouses--by our mutual words and actions.
But what if there is deception? In human relations, that is possible. But I'm not responsible for the other person's deception, only my own, if I am the liar. Now. can God be a liar? Not at all, if we are to believe the Bible, if we are to believe him. Can I be a liar in that relationship? Yes. And if I am, only God can show me my falseness, if I refuse to question myself.
I very much appreciate your post.
The possibility of being self-deceived about my salvation, finding out that I misunderstood the Scriptures, did not really put all my trust in Christ, etc. haunts me. I want to be bold knowing my King is faithful and live confidently, but this constant wrestling needs to be banished.
__________________
Joel Batts
Christ Presbyterian Church (PCA) - Memphis, TN
I believe that many would find that the heart sings unbidden while they are working their way through a tough bit of theology with a pipe in their teeth and a pencil in their hand. - CS Lewis
Is it possible for a person to want/desire to know Christ as his/her Savior and not be among the elect?
Yes. The parable of the soils speaks of this. They do not endure to the end. There are many of people as this. THe wheat and the tares also...
So how is assurance possible if we could simply be self-deceived our entire lives?
If one truly wants to know Christ as Saviour, does not the Saviour save?
Scripture does not record many instances of spurious faith examples individually. Those in Matt 7, Simon Magus could be the only 2 that I can think of in the NT.
John 6:66
And my fav in 1 john
They went out from us, but they were not really of us; for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us; but they went out, so that it would be shown that they all are not of us.
I also believe certain elect will never reach full assurance of salvation.
The Bible promises that those the Lord loves are chastened.
The Bible promises that those the Lord loves are persecuted for righteousness' sake.
The Bible promises that those the Lord loves struggle with sin.
These are three of the biggies that I point people toward for assurance.
Many say they are believers but go on in rebellion and they seem to prosper because of it. Where is the chastening?
Many say they are believers yet are loved by the world. Where is the persecution?
Many say they are believers but they do not struggle with sin. They rationalize it, they ignore it, they disguise it, but they do not struggle with it. They have no desire to actually repent of it. They never say, "For I delight in the law of God after the inward man: But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members." Where is the struggle?
"Preparing a sermon is like cooking a meal. You need pots and pans and utensils, but you don't bring them out to the table where people are eating." Derek Thomas
This passage would seem to indicate that some will be self-deceived in this manner.
Looking closely at this verse, which causes so many to wonder about assurance, shows their folly of looking to their works.
have we not prophesied in thy name?
And in thy name have cast out devils?
And in thy name done many wonderful works?
The whole assurance of their salvation is in what THEY have done. Not what Christ has done. This is how one can be assured. By leaving all self works behind and looking to Christ Alone.. What a glroious truth...
The seventy-two returned with joy and said, "Lord, even the demons submit to us in your name." He replied, "I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven. I have given you authority to trample on snakes and scorpions and to overcome all the power of the enemy; nothing will harm you. However, do not rejoice that the spirits submit to you, but rejoice that your names are written in heaven" (Lk. 10:17-20).
__________________
N. Robert; Trinity Reformed Church RCA, Holland MI
Once in a while you can get shown the light, in the strangest of places if you look at it right."
Last edited by Amazing Grace; 11-26-2007 at 01:22 PM.
This passage would seem to indicate that some will be self-deceived in this manner.
Looking closely at this verse, whicauses so many to wondoer about assurance, shows their folloy of looking to their works.
have we not prophesied in thy name?
And in thy name have cast out devils?
And in thy name done many wonderful works?
The whole assurance of their salvation is in what THEY have done. Not what Christ has done. This is how one can be assured. By leaving all self works behind and looking to Christ Alone.. What a glroious truth...
Excellent point!
It is so easy to get discouraged and mislead when we take our eyes off the Savior and look too much to ourselves.
__________________ James Helbert, Wytheville, VA
Providence Reformed Presbyterian Church, RPCUS TheBibleAlone.com / The Edinburgh Inn "Is this not a brand plucked from the fire?” - Zechariah 3:2
This passage would seem to indicate that some will be self-deceived in this manner.
Looking closely at this verse, whicauses so many to wondoer about assurance, shows their folloy of looking to their works.
have we not prophesied in thy name?
And in thy name have cast out devils?
And in thy name done many wonderful works?
The whole assurance of their salvation is in what THEY have done. Not what Christ has done. This is how one can be assured. By leaving all self works behind and looking to Christ Alone.. What a glroious truth...
Excellent point!
It is so easy to get discouraged and mislead when we take our eyes off the Savior and look too much to ourselves.
__________________
N. Robert; Trinity Reformed Church RCA, Holland MI
Once in a while you can get shown the light, in the strangest of places if you look at it right."
It is so easy to get discouraged and mislead when we take our eyes off the Savior and look too much to ourselves.
The problem, however, is that it is impossible to not look at ourselves to some degree as we exercise faith, because it is we whose eyes need to be on Jesus. IOW, the subjective self is bound up in the act of faith and because of that it is impossible to crawl out of myself and objectively know I am saved rather than to subjectively waver. I long for that objectivity.
Oh that the following words would comfort such a soul as mine!
HE (and not me) has hushed the law's loud thunder,
HE (and not me) has quenched Mount Sinai's flame.
HE (and not me) who washed us with His blood
Has secured our way to God.
__________________
Joel Batts
Christ Presbyterian Church (PCA) - Memphis, TN
I believe that many would find that the heart sings unbidden while they are working their way through a tough bit of theology with a pipe in their teeth and a pencil in their hand. - CS Lewis
True faith is not only a certain knowledge whereby I hold for truth all that God has revealed to us in His Word;1 but also a hearty trust,2 which the Holy Spirit 3 works in me by the Gospel,4 that not only to others, but to me also, forgiveness of sins, everlasting righteousness and salvation are freely given by God,5 merely of grace, only for the sake of Christ's merits.6
1 James 1:6. 2 Rom 4:16-18. 3 2 Cor 4:13. Phil 1:19, 20. 4 Rom 1:16. Rom 10:17. 5 Heb 11:1, 2. Rom 1:17. 6 Eph 2:7-9. Rom 3:24, 25. Gal 2:16. * Acts 10:43.
____
Yes, you and all Christians can and should have assurance. How? Trust the gospel promises of Christ! "Come to me all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest."
Do you trust in Christ as your righteousness alone?
I didn't ask if you trust enough but only if you trust him.
When it comes to assurance, faith is a binary operation. It either exists or it doesn't. Full stop. There's no degree or faith, when it comes to justification and assurance.
Does faith grow? Yes, it does, day by day, but that is the fruit of justification not the ground of assurance. Yes, there is a secondary place for reflecting upon fruit. HC 86 does this:
86. Since then we are redeemed from our misery by grace through Christ, without any merit of ours, why should we do good works?
Because Christ, having redeemed us by His blood, also renews us by His Holy Spirit after His own image, that with our whole life we show ourselves thankful to God for His blessing,1 and also that He be glorified through us;2 then also, that we ourselves may be assured of our faith by the fruits thereof;3 and by our godly walk win also others to Christ.4
1 Rom 6:13. Rom 12:1, 2. 1 Pet 2:5,9,10. 1 Cor 6:20. 2 Matt 5:16. 1 Pet 2:12. 3 Matt 7:17,18. Gal 5:6, 22, 23. 4 Rom 14:19. 1 Pet 3:1, 2. * 2 Pet 1:10
.
The fruit of faith strengthens our assurance but it is not the basis of it. The sole basis/ground of assurance is Christ's righteousness for us and his unshakeable promises to us.
To refuse to have assurance on the ground that one is not sufficiently sanctified is a form of unbelief. Stop it. Repent of it. Of course you are not sanctified enough! You're a wretch. Jesus didn't obey and die for nice, sanctified people. He obeyed and died for you and me.
Will your assurance always be perfect and equally strong? No. The Westminster Confession ch 14 (as quoted above) deals with that question brilliantly. Our assurance ebbs and flows. We learn more and more to stop looking at ourselves -- just as we learn to stop looking at garbage heaps -- and we learn more and more to look at Christ and his promises.
rsc
__________________
R. Scott Clark, D.Phil
Professor of Church History and Historical Theology
"For Christ, His Gospel, and His Church"
Associate Pastor Oceanside URC The Heidelblog
The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to R. Scott Clark For This Useful Post:
It is so easy to get discouraged and mislead when we take our eyes off the Savior and look too much to ourselves.
The problem, however, is that it is impossible to not look at ourselves to some degree as we exercise faith, because it is we whose eyes need to be on Jesus. IOW, the subjective self is bound up in the act of faith and because of that it is impossible to crawl out of myself and objectively know I am saved rather than to subjectively waver. I long for that objectivity.
Oh that the following words would comfort such a soul as mine!
HE (and not me) has hushed the law's loud thunder,
HE (and not me) has quenched Mount Sinai's flame.
HE (and not me) who washed us with His blood
Has secured our way to God.
I too had no assurance as an independent fundamental dispensational baptist. I could never get over the thought that if even only 1% of my salvation depended on me I was still in big trouble because I knew/know how untrustworthy and inconsistent I am. It was only in being granted an understanding of the DoG and CT that assurance finally came. Do I still doubt? Yes. But knowing that salvation has nothing to do with me and my abilities forces me to focus upon Christ and His promise to keep His sheep. When I meditate upon Him and His promises I always find peace. Sometimes immediately but often only after wallowing around in the pit of self-pity and doubt for awhile. But as the WCF says, I no longer come to utter despair. God is most gracious to His children, and especially to those who ask for needed grace. IMO.
Look to the Spirit for guidance and comfort,
Romans 8:26-27
. Honestly and earnestly search your heart for the true fruits of the Spirit. And ask yourself, "Do I truly love Jesus?", for He said "Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me." - John 8.42.
I don't know if any of that helps, but I hope so. I also offer my sincere prayers on your behalf that the Lord will quickly return to you the joy and assurance of His salvation or grant you true repentance, if that be the need.
Blessings!
__________________ James Helbert, Wytheville, VA
Providence Reformed Presbyterian Church, RPCUS TheBibleAlone.com / The Edinburgh Inn "Is this not a brand plucked from the fire?” - Zechariah 3:2
Dr. Clark has some excellent points there... and to piggy back on his words. The ONLY sure ground for justification - the ONLY source of assurance that is possible for us is Christ's full and complete righteousness imputed to us. We cannot satisfy, no matter how well we try, God's just and righteous requirements - we'll never do it. Christ alone is just in and of himself - we fall miserably short, and if there is ANY sense in which we are looking at ourselves, looking for reason for assurance, we'll find that our assurance is less than reassuring. Our standing before God is now and ever shall be grounded in the person and work of Jesus Christ. You CAN find assurance before God, if you are looking at the right person, Christ Jesus, the spotless Lamb, slain for us.
"Many men, after a long conversion, see more of the workings of sin in their hearts than ever they did before or at their first conversion. Now, such men have not an increase of sin, but an increase of illumination and light" (Christopher Love)
__________________
Joel Batts
Christ Presbyterian Church (PCA) - Memphis, TN
I believe that many would find that the heart sings unbidden while they are working their way through a tough bit of theology with a pipe in their teeth and a pencil in their hand. - CS Lewis
Faith is that poor trembling woman who came behind Jesus in the press and touched the hem of His garment (Mark 5:27). Assurance is Stephen standing calmly in the midst of his murderers, and saving, “I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God!”
Faith is the penitent thief, crying, “Lord, remember me” (Luke 23:42). Assurance is Job, sitting in the dust, covered with sores, and saying, “I know that my Redeemer liveth” (Job 19:25). “Though He slay me, yet will I trust in Him” (Job 13:15).
Faith is Peter’s drowning cry, as he began to sink: Lord, save me” (Matt 14:30). Assurance is that same Peter declaring before the Council in after times, “This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner. Neither is there salvation in any other; for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved”(Acts 4:11-12).
Faith is the anxious, trembling voice, “Lord, I believe; help Thou mine unbelief” (Mark 9:24). Assurance is the confident challenge, Who shall lay anything to the charge of God’s elect? . . . Who is he that condemneth?” (Rom 8:33,34). Faith is Saul praying in the house of Judas at Damascus, sorrowful, blind, and alone (Acts 9:11). Assurance is Paul, the aged prisoner, looking calmly into the grave, and saying, “I know whom I have believed . . . There is a crown laid up for me” (2 Tim 1:12, 4:8).
Faith is life. How great the blessing! Who can tell the gulf between life and death? And yet life may be weak, sickly, unhealthy, painful, trying, anxious, worn, burdensome, joyless, smileless to the very end.
Assurance is more than life. It is health, strength, power, vigor, activity, energy, manliness, beauty.
Reader, it is not a question of saved or not saved that lies before us, but of privilege or no privilege. It is not a question of peace or no peace, but of great peace or little peace. It is not a question between the wanderers of this world and the school of Christ: it is one that belongs only to the school: — it is between the first form and the last.
He that has faith does well. Happy should I be, if I thought all readers of this article had it. Blessed, thrice blessed are they that believe. They are safe. They are washed. They are justified. They are beyond the power of hell. Satan, with all his malice, shall never pluck them out of Christ’s hand.
But he that has assurance does far better, — sees more, feels more, knows more, enjoys more, has more days like those spoken of in Deuteronomy 11:21, even “as the days of heaven upon the earth.
From the article of Ryle.
__________________
N. Robert; Trinity Reformed Church RCA, Holland MI
Once in a while you can get shown the light, in the strangest of places if you look at it right."
When it comes to assurance, faith is a binary operation. It either exists or it doesn't. Full stop. There's no degree or faith, when it comes to justification and assurance.
I love it!!! The parable of the sower says that the good soil people bring forth fruit, some hundredfold, some sixty and some thirty. There is no assurance in the *amount* of fruit, only in its existance at all.
"Preparing a sermon is like cooking a meal. You need pots and pans and utensils, but you don't bring them out to the table where people are eating." Derek Thomas
Should we love Jesus? Yes. Will we, by the grace of God, come to love Jesus more truly and fully than we do now. Do we now love Jesus as we ought? No.
Substitute: "Do I love the Lord with all my faculties?" (Matt 22:37-40) The honest answer is no! We're sinners. We don't any of us love God as we ought. Thus, to ask, "do I love Jesus?" as part of the grounds for justification or assurance is the path to doubt and despair.
We start with the objective work of Christ.
Secondarily, we can ask if we have any fruit.
Look to the Spirit for guidance and comfort,
Romans 8:26-27
. Honestly and earnestly search your heart for the true fruits of the Spirit. And ask yourself, "Do I truly love Jesus?", for He said "Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me." - John 8.42.
Yes, we look to the Spirit and we ask him to operate, as he has promised to do, through the preaching of the gospel. We should be careful about an overly subjective approach to this question.
rsc
__________________
R. Scott Clark, D.Phil
Professor of Church History and Historical Theology
"For Christ, His Gospel, and His Church"
Associate Pastor Oceanside URC The Heidelblog
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to R. Scott Clark For This Useful Post:
The objective work of Christ is the oasis in the desert. But since faith is the means by which Christ's objective work is appropriated, how can one escape the subjectivity of it?
For example, Christ's work is only appropriated to some and in Reformed circles we say those "some" are the elect. In the works of the Puritans and others, there is a seemingly constant introspection about whether or not one is truly resting in Christ or is it Christ + something else and that the latter are damned because they are not trusting Christ alone.
That's where it gets difficult because on the one hand, as Reformed believers, we want to say that Christ alone saves and we believe that those trusting in something else cannot be saved. Yet, on the other hand, as you've clearly stated, all of us struggle with putting other gods before God and trusting in other things.
And that is where it gets to be shades of gray rather than "this folks are elect" and "those folks aren't". As Bavinck has said, certainty of faith needs something firmer than these shades of gray (he didn't exactly speak of shades of gray, but alluded to the necessity to ground certainty properly).
What I do see happening in my life outside of these doubts causes me to give thanks to God. Sin in general, materialism, pride...they are all increasingly abhorrent to me. I crave to know God and serve Him in this world more and more. But the reality of such things cause me all the more to wonder why I can't just rest in assurance and serve Him without wondering if I'm in a fairy tale.
__________________
Joel Batts
Christ Presbyterian Church (PCA) - Memphis, TN
I believe that many would find that the heart sings unbidden while they are working their way through a tough bit of theology with a pipe in their teeth and a pencil in their hand. - CS Lewis
I, too, have never understood how one can be completely objective. I can look at Christ and his work for sinners and believe that he truly died for the elect and yet doubt that I am one of them. How do you get from looking at Christ to knowing that you are in Christ? It seems like it has to be subjective to some extent.
__________________
Davidius
Husband of Emily
Member of All Saints Anglican Church - Chapel Hill (AMiA / Anglican Church of North America)
Student: University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill, German and Classics
The objective work of Christ is the oasis in the desert. But since faith is the means by which Christ's objective work is appropriated, how can one escape the subjectivity of it?
For example, Christ's work is only appropriated to some and in Reformed circles we say those "some" are the elect. In the works of the Puritans and others, there is a seemingly constant introspection about whether or not one is truly resting in Christ or is it Christ + something else and that the latter are damned because they are not trusting Christ alone.
That's where it gets difficult because on the one hand, as Reformed believers, we want to say that Christ alone saves and we believe that those trusting in something else cannot be saved. Yet, on the other hand, as you've clearly stated, all of us struggle with putting other gods before God and trusting in other things.
And that is where it gets to be shades of gray rather than "this folks are elect" and "those folks aren't". As Bavinck has said, certainty of faith needs something firmer than these shades of gray (he didn't exactly speak of shades of gray, but alluded to the necessity to ground certainty properly).
What I do see happening in my life outside of these doubts causes me to give thanks to God. Sin in general, materialism, pride...they are all increasingly abhorrent to me. I crave to know God and serve Him in this world more and more. But the reality of such things cause me all the more to wonder why I can't just rest in assurance and serve Him without wondering if I'm in a fairy tale.
Well, imagine if it were not a struggle, would you be crying out to Christ to save you from the body of death?
It is interesting that this thread should arise because I've been reading a bunch of Puritan biographies and I was struck by the fact that nearly every biography lists a date of a "conversion experience". I don't think it's a mistake that, even though the systematics was generally sound, this focus was probably the seedbed for revivalism.
This is not a terribly difficult thing but it does lead us to seesaw in the recesses of our mind where doubts of assurance can strike.
I really don't think, after studying James or Paul, that they had the struggling Christian in mind when they challenged men on the genuineness of their faith. If you read James, for instance, there is the sense of a callous disregard for fruit and the insistence, it seems, that I have faith and fruit is optional. James proceeds to show that such men and women have no love for the things of God and not some love. In fact, the "faith" of the hypocrite is the perfect example of something that looks back upon itself instead of outwardly to what its object ought to be and the gratitude that flows out of it.
Look, it's been said so many times already and you just need to believe this: You are a beggar when it comes to Christ. Look to His work and grab on to His feet. When the others are pushing you away saying: "The master is too busy, don't bother Him" then ignore the fact that you're the leper and cry out: "Jesus! Master! Have mercy upon me a sinner!" When Christ asks you: "Do you believe in Me." Then answer like the father of the epileptic: "Lord I believe, help though my unbelief."
As Dr. Clark noted, you either have faith or you do not. Don't look at the strength of your faith. There is no faith too weak, if it lays hold of Christ, that does not unite to Him. That doesn't mean that it's a faith that looks upon itself and is content to say that no growth is necessary but the necessity of growth and the presence of abiding sin ought not to be used as a reason to focus back inward. The focus ought NOT to be on the quality of your faith but whether or not you believe in what Christ has done.
So, if you're struggling with sin then welcome to the club! I'm not saying you're supposed to delight in your sin. In fact, it brings us all great sorrow. But you ought not constantly get into a "do loop" to wonder if God still has kind intentions toward you. Election is not introduced in the Scriptures to get us to sit back and wonder about the elect status of anyone including ourselves. It is meant to comfort believers. Do you believe? Then be comforted that He who began a good work in you will complete it to the very end.
WebsiteMaven - Web Hosting Reviews, Guides, and Advice to build and promote your web site. SoliDeoGloria.com - A Community for Reformed Thought and Discussion
I can look at Christ and his work for sinners and believe that he truly died for the elect and yet doubt that I am one of them.
I struggle with exactly the same thought. I always come to the conclusion that whether I am elect or not has nothing to do with me. That's His business and I will just have to trust that He has paid the price for those that are His.
If my faith is genuine, and I belong to Him, then the price has been paid. If I am self deceived and not among the elect, then there is nothing I can do about it anyways...
Either way He will be glorified. I just pray that He glorifies Himself in me according to His mercy rather than His justice. I am thankful that He has revealed Himself in His word to be merciful.
__________________
Jon Adams
Member of Grace Bible Church
Pleasant Hill, CA
John Rogers made this excellent statement concerning the strength of faith:
"If it never proves great, yet weak faith shall save; for it interests us in Christ, and makes Him and all His benefits ours. For it is not the strength of our faith that saves, but the truth of our faith-not the weakness of our faith that condemns, but the want of faith; for the least faith layeth hold on Christ, and so will save us. Neither are we saved by the worth or quantity of our faith, but by Christ, who is laid hold on by a weak faith as well as a strong. Just as a weak hand that can put meat into the mouth shall feed and nourish the body as well as if it were a strong hand; seeing the body is not nourished by the strength of the hand, but by the goodness of the meat."
-John Rogers "The Doctrine of Faith"
The objective work of Christ is the oasis in the desert. But since faith is the means by which Christ's objective work is appropriated, how can one escape the subjectivity of it?
Your definition of faith is too subjective.
It's not MY believing that makes faith efficacious. What makes faith, in the act of justification and relative to assurance, efficacious is the OBJECT of faith. Christ and his righteousness makes faith what it is: the sole instrument of justification and the sole means of resting in and receiving Christ and his finished work.
Thus, there is nothing, relative to justification or assurance, inherent to faith itself that makes it one thing or another. It either exists or it doesn't.
Quote:
For example, Christ's work is only appropriated to some and in Reformed circles we say those "some" are the elect.
Some believe and some do not. Both of those are in the visible church and most all of those outside the visible church do not believe (there may be some extraordinary case where one is outside the visible church and yet believes).
We don't decide for whom Christ died or who is elect a priori. We do it after the fact (a posteriori. We never ask, "Am I elect?" or "Did Christ die for me?" We only ask, "Do I believe?" If I believe, it is because I am elect and Christ died for me etc.
Never, ever try to guess the secret will and providence and decree of God. It is forbidden in Deut 29:29.
Quote:
In the works of the Puritans and others, there is a seemingly constant introspection about whether or not one is truly resting in Christ or is it Christ + something else and that the latter are damned because they are not trusting Christ alone.
Yes, but not in the better Reformed writers (whether they were English speaking or not). There were subjectivists on the continent too. So what? What do we confess as churches?
Just because we sin doesn't mean we're not justified.
We are simultaneously sinners AND justified.
We're not papists. We don't confess that only the sanctified can be justified.
Am I a sinner? Yes! Do I, sola gratia trust that Christ is my righteousness? Yes.
When it comes to assurance, the equation stops with Christ. Did he finish the work? Is he enough? You will NEVER (yes, I'm yelling) achieve the sanctity you want without first trusting in the sufficiency of the finished work of Christ.
Must we die to self? Yes. We must die daily. Does my lack of mortification mean I am not justified? No. It means I'm not yet glorified.
rsc
__________________
R. Scott Clark, D.Phil
Professor of Church History and Historical Theology
"For Christ, His Gospel, and His Church"
Associate Pastor Oceanside URC The Heidelblog
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to R. Scott Clark For This Useful Post:
The ground/basis of our justification and of our assurance is completely objective. Faith apprehends that ground: Christ and his righteousness FOR ME.
Is faith perfect? No, but it is sufficient. That's why it's the sole instrument. It looks away from self and to Christ.
Faith doesn't do it. Christ does it and we receive his benefits through faith.
rsc
Quote:
Originally Posted by CarolinaCalvinist
I, too, have never understood how one can be completely objective. I can look at Christ and his work for sinners and believe that he truly died for the elect and yet doubt that I am one of them. How do you get from looking at Christ to knowing that you are in Christ? It seems like it has to be subjective to some extent.
__________________
R. Scott Clark, D.Phil
Professor of Church History and Historical Theology
"For Christ, His Gospel, and His Church"
Associate Pastor Oceanside URC The Heidelblog
The Following User Says Thank You to R. Scott Clark For This Useful Post:
Just because we sin doesn't mean we're not justified.
We are simultaneously sinners AND justified.
We're not papists. We don't confess that only the sanctified can be justified.
Am I a sinner? Yes! Do I, sola gratia trust that Christ is my righteousness? Yes.
When it comes to assurance, the equation stops with Christ. Did he finish the work? Is he enough? You will NEVER (yes, I'm yelling) achieve the sanctity you want without first trusting in the sufficiency of the finished work of Christ.
Must we die to self? Yes. We must die daily. Does my lack of mortification mean I am not justified? No. It means I'm not yet glorified.
WebsiteMaven - Web Hosting Reviews, Guides, and Advice to build and promote your web site. SoliDeoGloria.com - A Community for Reformed Thought and Discussion
The following may help to clarify some of the discussion on assurance. It is from the Works of Thomas Boston, Vol. 2. Please note the clear distinction between objective and subjective assurance. There is an assurance which arises from the direct act of faith, whereby we know objectively that something is true because God has said so. There is also an assurance which arises as a reflex act of faith, whereby we know that something is true of us, the subject, because the marks of it are clearly seen in us through the Holy Spirit bearing witness to His own work in our lives. Blessings!
Quote:
I. OF ASSURANCE.
In speaking to the first, namely, assurance, I will shew,
I. The kinds of it.
II. That a child of God may have this assurance.
III. The nature of it, and how a saint comes to be assured.
IV. The fruits of it, whereby it may be discerned from presumption.
V. The necessity of it.
VI. Deduce an inference or two.
I. I am to shew the kinds of assurance. They are two.
1. Objective assurance, whereby the special love of God to a saint, and his eternal salvation, are sure in themselves, 2 Tim. ii. 19. 'The foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his.' - This is never wanting, whether the child of God know it or not. Though they raze foundations of hope at some times, yet God never razes his.
2. Subjective assurance, whereby a child of God is assured that God loves him with a special love, and that he shall certainly partake of eternal glory, Gal. ii. 20. 'Who loved me, and gave himself for me,' says Paul. This is not a wavering hope, or conjecture, but an infallible certainty. This is the assurance we treat of.
II. I shall shew that a child of God may have this assurance.
1. A believer may know that he has relative grace, that he is justified and therefore shall never come into condemnation, Rom. v. 1, &c. Though he cannot ascend to heaven, and at first read his name in the book of God's decrees; yet by comparing the book of God and the book of his own soul, he may know that he is called and elected, 2 Pet. i. 10. and therefore shall certainly be saved.
2. He may be assured that he has inherent grace, that he believes as sure as he breathes, 2 Tim. i. 12. that he has love to the Lord unfeigned, and can appeal to Omniscience on the head, John xxi. 15. as Peter did when he said, 'Thou who knowest all things, knowest that I love thee.' And believing that such are loved of God, and shall certainly persevere, for which he has the testimony of the word, he may be assured that he is the happy man.
3. It is the office of the Spirit of God to assure believers of this. He has given us the word for this end: He is given to lead his people into all truth, particularly to discover the grace of God to them, and in them, 1 Cor. ii. 12. to witness with their spirits to their adoption, Rom. viii. 16. to be a seal, which is properly to ensure an evidence, Eph. iv. 30. and an earnest, a part of the price and pledge of the whole, 2 Cor. v. 5.
Lastly, Many of the saints have attained it; as Job, chap. xix. 25. 'For I know that my Redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth,' Psal. xxiii. ult. 'Surely goodness and mercy shall follow me all the days of my life; and I will dwell in the house of the Lord for ever,' 2 Tim. iv. 8. 'Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord the righteous Judge shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.' And others too, besides scripture-saints.
III. I shall shew the nature of this assurance, and how a saint comes to be assured. By what is said, ye may perceive that this is a work of the Spirit, in the hearts of the saints, without whose efficacy no man can attain it. We may take it up in these three things.
1. The Spirit shining on his own word, particularly the promises, in the Bible, the child of God firmly believes them, Heb. vi. 11, 12. The Lord has testified in his word, that such and such persons, for instance, that love him, Prov. viii. 17. are universal in obedience; are poor in spirit, Matt. v. 3. are beloved of him, and shall certainly be saved. The Spirit says in effect, by the light he gives the believer into the divine authority of that word, This is my word. And as such the child of God is firmly persuaded of the certainty of it, as if a voice from the throne of God would make these promises and declarations. This is the ground-work of assurance.
2. The Spirit shining on his own work of grace in the believer's heart, the believer discerns it, 1 Cor. ii. 12. The Spirit of God clears up to the man the truth of grace in him; lets him see that he, for instance, loves God, &c. and so says in effect, This is my work. Hence he is enabled to conclude assuredly, that the Lord loves him, he shall not be ashamed, and that the kingdom of God is his. This assurance is stronger or weaker according to the degree of light that shines upon the work of grace in the heart to discover it.
3. Lastly, The Spirit of the Lord sometimes gives a joint testimony with the spirits of the saints, to the truth of that conclusion, Rom. viii. 16. that they are the children of God. The testimony of the believer's own spirit is weak in itself, and Satan can find many ways to invalidate it; therefore the Spirit witnesses to them the truth of the conclusion, whereby they are raised to a full persuasion of it.
IV. I shall shew the fruit of this assurance, whereby it may be discerned from presumption.
1. It inflames the soul with love to the Lord. As one flame begets another, so the assurance of God's love to us will add new vigour to our love to the Lord, 1 John iv. 19. Luke vii. 47. He sits in the warm sunshine, that cannot fail to melt the heart, who sits under evidence of the Lord's love.
2. It is humbling, Gal. ii. 20. None so vile in their own eyes as those who are lifted up in the manifestations of the Lord's love to them, Gen. xviii. 27. 2 Sam. vii. 18. 2 Cor. xii. 4 and 11 compared. Delusion puffs up, but true assurance humbles.
3. It makes one tender in heart and life, and is a most powerful motive to sanctification, 2 Cor. vii. 1. It is followed with great care to please God in all things, and watchfulness against every sin. While the empty traveller walks at random, fearing nothing, because he has nothing to lose, he that has precious things about him looks well to himself, Cant. iii. 5. One may be persuaded, that the confidence which makes not one tender in his duty to God and man, is presumption.
4. Establishment in the good ways of the Lord, 2 Pet. i. 10. Faith is the provisor of all other graces, it brings in oil into the lamp; and the more evidence it has, it can do its office the better. A doubting Christian will be a staggering and weak Christian; as the soldier who has little hope of the victory will readily be faint-hearted, while he that is assured is strengthened and established.
5. Lastly, It fills a man with contempt of the world, Gal. vi. 14. If ye gaze on the shining sun, for a while after ye will scarcely discern the beauty of the earth. And one's solacing himself in contemplation of heaven as his, will sink the value of the world with him.
V. I shall shew the necessity of assurance.
1. It is not necessary to the being of a Christian. One may have true faith, and yet want full assurance, Isa. l. 10. One may go to heaven in a mist, not knowing whither he is going. We read of some, Heb. ii. 16, 'who through fear of death are all their life time subject to bondage.' Our salvation depends on our state, not our knowledge of it.
2. It is necessary to the well-being of a Christian, and therefore we are commanded to seek it, 2 Pet. i. 10, 'Give diligence to make your calling and election sure.' There are none who can live so comfortably for themselves, as the assured Christian, and none are so useful for God as they. It fits a man either to live or die; while others are unfit to live, because of the weakness of grace in a throng of trials and temptations, and unfit to die for want of evidence of grace.
Hence it follows, that assurance may be lost; and they that sometimes have this light, may fall into darkness. And it is careless walking that puts it out, especially sinning against the light, whereby the Spirit is grieved, and withdraws his light, Eph. iv. 29, 30. But if it be lost that way, and darkness come on, it will readily be dreadful darkness; the higher they have been lifted up, the lower readily they are laid, Psal. li. 8.
Inf. l. Unjustified and unsanctified persons can have no true assurance of the Lord's love to them. They may have a false confidence, a delusive hope of heaven; but no assurance, for that is peculiar to the justified.
Inf. 2. Doubts and fears are no friends to holiness of heart and life. It is little faith that breeds them in the hearts of the people of God, Matth. xiv. 31. And little faith will always make little holiness.
Inf. 3. Lastly, Christians may thank themselves for the uncomfortable lives they lead. What sovereignty may do, we know not: but surely it is sloth and unbelief that the want of assurance is ordinarily owing to. Stir up yourselves then to seek it. Be frequent in self-examination, cry to the Lord for the witness of his spirit. Believe the word, and be habitually tender in your walk, if ever ye would have assurance, Psal. v. ult.
__________________
Yours sincerely,
"Illum oportet crescere me autem minui."
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to armourbearer For This Useful Post:
The ground/basis of our justification and of our assurance is completely objective. Faith apprehends that ground: Christ and his righteousness FOR ME.
Is faith perfect? No, but it is sufficient. That's why it's the sole instrument. It looks away from self and to Christ.
Faith doesn't do it. Christ does it and we receive his benefits through faith.
rsc
Quote:
Originally Posted by CarolinaCalvinist
I, too, have never understood how one can be completely objective. I can look at Christ and his work for sinners and believe that he truly died for the elect and yet doubt that I am one of them. How do you get from looking at Christ to knowing that you are in Christ? It seems like it has to be subjective to some extent.
Thanks for your help, Dr. Clark.
__________________
Davidius
Husband of Emily
Member of All Saints Anglican Church - Chapel Hill (AMiA / Anglican Church of North America)
Student: University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill, German and Classics
For what it is worth the Lutheran view is that like our justification our assurance must be "extra nos". Therefore, any assurance we have comes from resting upon Christ and his promises - in other words resting on Word and Sacrament, particular one's baptism. Why Baptism, because there God does a work to us and makes a promise that is entirely void of our doing. As such, we merely have to ask ourselves if Christ keeps his promise.
To put it another way here is what is often put forth as the syllogism of assurance:
a) All those who truly believe will be saved
b) I know I truly believe
c) Therefore I know I am saved.
The Lutheran position is something more like this:
a) In my Baptism Christ promised I was united to his death and resurrection and my sins were forgiven
b) Christ does not lie
c) Therefore in my Baptism I was united to his death and resurrection and my sins ARE forgiven.
The problem of course with the first syllogism is that it is inherently reflexive and focus the attention of the believer back upon themselves. From the Lutheran perspective that is a hopeless place to look, our gaze should be firmly focused instead on Christ and His promises. As you can see the second syllogism (which is the logic behind the cliche "Remember Your Baptism!") focuses attention on Christ and his pro me work ("for me").
Interestingly I am reading the excellent Albion's Seed by David Hackett Fischer. In there he spends a good deal of time dealing with the puritans, their view of death, etc. He comments that to many at the time, feeling "assured" of your salvation was actually indication that you WERE NOT saved. Interesting.
Finally, I've heard it put this way by Carl Trueman:
In the Scottish presbyterian tradition your assurance was derived from an internal testimony of the spirit
In the Continental reformed tradition your assurance was derived from the testimony of your good works.
For what its worth, I prefer to derive my assurance on the "extra nos" Word and Sacrament - otherwise I would have no assurance at all.
__________________
Chad Hamilton
Peace With Christ (LCMS)
Fort Collins, Colorado
The Following User Says Thank You to spicedparrot For This Useful Post:
"Preparing a sermon is like cooking a meal. You need pots and pans and utensils, but you don't bring them out to the table where people are eating." Derek Thomas
For what it is worth the Lutheran view is that like our justification our assurance must be "extra nos". Therefore, any assurance we have comes from resting upon Christ and his promises - in other words resting on Word and Sacrament, particular one's baptism. Why Baptism, because there God does a work to us and makes a promise that is entirely void of our doing. As such, we merely have to ask ourselves if Christ keeps his promise.
To put it another way here is what is often put forth as the syllogism of assurance:
a) All those who truly believe will be saved
b) I know I truly believe
c) Therefore I know I am saved.
The Lutheran position is something more like this:
a) In my Baptism Christ promised I was united to his death and resurrection and my sins were forgiven
b) Christ does not lie
c) Therefore in my Baptism I was united to his death and resurrection and my sins ARE forgiven.
The problem of course with the first syllogism is that it is inherently reflexive and focus the attention of the believer back upon themselves. From the Lutheran perspective that is a hopeless place to look, our gaze should be firmly focused instead on Christ and His promises. As you can see the second syllogism (which is the logic behind the cliche "Remember Your Baptism!") focuses attention on Christ and his pro me work ("for me").
Interestingly I am reading the excellent Albion's Seed by David Hackett Fischer. In there he spends a good deal of time dealing with the puritans, their view of death, etc. He comments that to many at the time, feeling "assured" of your salvation was actually indication that you WERE NOT saved. Interesting.
Finally, I've heard it put this way by Carl Trueman:
In the Scottish presbyterian tradition your assurance was derived from an internal testimony of the spirit
In the Continental reformed tradition your assurance was derived from the testimony of your good works.
For what its worth, I prefer to derive my assurance on the "extra nos" Word and Sacrament - otherwise I would have no assurance at all.
Not to digress, but is this not becasue of Luther's belief in baptismal regeneration? I do not know how this can be divorced.
__________________
N. Robert; Trinity Reformed Church RCA, Holland MI
Once in a while you can get shown the light, in the strangest of places if you look at it right."
For what it is worth the Lutheran view is that like our justification our assurance must be "extra nos". Therefore, any assurance we have comes from resting upon Christ and his promises - in other words resting on Word and Sacrament, particular one's baptism. Why Baptism, because there God does a work to us and makes a promise that is entirely void of our doing. As such, we merely have to ask ourselves if Christ keeps his promise.
To put it another way here is what is often put forth as the syllogism of assurance:
a) All those who truly believe will be saved
b) I know I truly believe
c) Therefore I know I am saved.
The Lutheran position is something more like this:
a) In my Baptism Christ promised I was united to his death and resurrection and my sins were forgiven
b) Christ does not lie
c) Therefore in my Baptism I was united to his death and resurrection and my sins ARE forgiven.
The problem of course with the first syllogism is that it is inherently reflexive and focus the attention of the believer back upon themselves. From the Lutheran perspective that is a hopeless place to look, our gaze should be firmly focused instead on Christ and His promises. As you can see the second syllogism (which is the logic behind the cliche "Remember Your Baptism!") focuses attention on Christ and his pro me work ("for me").
Interestingly I am reading the excellent Albion's Seed by David Hackett Fischer. In there he spends a good deal of time dealing with the puritans, their view of death, etc. He comments that to many at the time, feeling "assured" of your salvation was actually indication that you WERE NOT saved. Interesting.
Finally, I've heard it put this way by Carl Trueman:
In the Scottish presbyterian tradition your assurance was derived from an internal testimony of the spirit
In the Continental reformed tradition your assurance was derived from the testimony of your good works.
For what its worth, I prefer to derive my assurance on the "extra nos" Word and Sacrament - otherwise I would have no assurance at all.
Not to digress, but is this not becasue of Luther's belief in baptismal regeneration? I do not know how this can be divorced.
I do think it's a digresion as well from the Reformed understanding of baptism. One does not have to obsesively "navel gaze" to have confidence in your baptism but the confidence is not from the act itself but the promise and what it signifies.
I have a problem with the above schema because it conflates the sign with the thing signified in the same way that the Federal Vision does. Baptism is not the instrument that unites a person to Christ, faith is that instrument. Baptism signifies union with Christ but it is not union with Christ.
Remember, this is a Reformed board. If we agreed with the Lutherans on the nature of the Sacraments then this would be a Lutheran board.
WebsiteMaven - Web Hosting Reviews, Guides, and Advice to build and promote your web site. SoliDeoGloria.com - A Community for Reformed Thought and Discussion
Linear Mode
