Its been said so many times, "if you were the only man on earth, Jesus would have died for you." Obviously this statement is chocked full of error but outside of that, as I was explaining to a newer Christian the doctrine of the atonement, it became fascinating to me as I was trying myself to piece together a succinct statement. That which I was pondering, and forgive the questions lucidness as I am having trouble articulating it, is such:
Did the atonement take place for individuals alone or did it take place more from a corporate position, meaning, Christs death was for the church? Does this make sense?
As I was explaining this to this individual, it seemed to make sense that Christs death was for the elect only in that He died exclusively for His church, therefore eliminating the personal element that is so frequently quoted in this age. By personal element, I mean, he died for all so that we may, on an individual basis, come to Him. I hope thats clear enough

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Michael P Doyle
Waukesha WI
Member of http://www.cornerstone-pca.com/
Attending http://www.lampseminary.org/

Michael, the atonement has a corporate aspect (the church) and a individual component. I used to believe that Christ died to take back this world from Satan; but I now find that view erroneous. Even though Satan is the "prince of the power and the air", his dominion is lesser dominion than that of God (one kingdom, not two). While Christ died for His church, that occurs one-by-one as each member of the church is regenerated and comes to faith.

__________________
Bill Brown
Elder
Reformed Baptist
Maryland

Click to get: Board Rules -- Signature Requirements -- Suggestions?
Visit my BLOG Theology for the Rest of Us

I would just throw this into the mix, regarding a speech by the head of the "Episcopal Church":

Bishop: Focus on personal salvation is 'heresy', 'idolatry' - Faith & Reason

Needless to say, although baptized as an Anglican, I left that "church" more than 10 years ago because I couldn't take it any more.

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Jim
Elder
First Presbyterian Church of Honolulu
at Ko'olau (PCUSA)
Honolulu, Hawaii
http://www.fpchawaii.org/
"And He said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for My strength is made perfect in weakness." II Corinthians 12:9

Hi Michael,

I believe Christ's atonement and death was substitutional. He died in my stead. He paid my death sentence which I deserved due to my sins. He redeemed me from judgment and punishment in Hell by taking upon Himself God's wrath against my sins. And included, were the deaths of all those the Father gave Him to save; the elect; which corporately make up His Church.

It was all very personal; for I believe I, and every member of His spiritual body (church) was loved and individually named, even before the foundation of the world. (Ephesians 1:3-5; Revelation 20:15)

__________________
Ronda Rush
Church of the Redeemer
Independent Reformed
California


" . . .It is written, 'Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.'" Matthew 4:4

Paul was able to say "He gave Himself for me" Gal 2:20

__________________
Bob, elder, RBC Louisville. 1689 LBCF

"... Of such also, or of those who make a credible profession of being such, all those particular churches consist, which constitute our Lord's visible kingdom. ... Consequently, all the subjects of His government must have spiritual dispositions, , and yield spiritual obedience- obedience proceeding from an enlightened understanding, an awakened conscience, and a renewed heart."- Abraham Booth 1788

That quote is often attributed to St. Augustine.

* If you were the only person on earth, Christ would have still suffered and died for you.

__________________

Norseman Moderator

R. Martin Snyder
1689er
http://www.puritanboard.com/blogs/puritancovenanter/

"Our object should not be to have scripture on our side but to be on the side of scripture; and however dear any sentiment may have become by being long entertained, so soon as it is seen to be contrary to the Bible, we must be prepared to abandon it without hesitation."
William Symington

Click to get:Board Rules -- Signature Requirements -- Suggestions?

I will go along with the consensus that Christ's death was for the church, but I also believe it to be in a very intimate and personal way in the sense that you are an elect. As we all know, not of your own accord, but of the Father's will we are elect and we are only humble and thankful for the kindness of the Father to save such ill deserving sinners such as you and me, but you were still chosen as an elect individual to be adopted into the family which means to an extent Christ died for you in specific, and also at large for the church.

Does that make sense?

__________________
Jakob (But you can call me Jake if you like)
Pastor in Training
Reformed Baptist
Missouri

I was not aware of that.


Excellent points here and nothing I could argue against. I hope my question at least makes sense because as I consider the corporate aspect of the atonement it seems to really bring to light the specificity of Christs atonement for sin.

The corporate aspect of the Atonement is a corollary of the individual aspect (and vice-versa), insofar as each of the elect (individual Christians) make up the Elect (the Christian Church). To say that Christ died for individuals is to say that Christ died for the group that is made up of those died-for individuals.

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Nathan Tyler
Reformed Baptist
University of Toronto (Student: Hons. B.A. in Philosophy)
Ontario, Canada

1689'er

http://nathantyler.wordpress.com

What is the quote supposed to mean? That the speaker knows that the person he is speaking to is elect? If someone is the last person on earth they should be encouraged to believe and they will be saved.

Typology isn't enough to prove a doctrine, but the High Priest who was a type of Christ went into the Most Holy Place once a year with the blood of atonement. On his breastplate were the names of the twelve tribes of Israel.

In a similar way Christ went into heaven with His blood for named individuals that were laid on His human soul by His divine nature.

Particular atonement is for particular people.

__________________
Richard
communicant member, FCoS
Perth, Scotland UK

His Name forever shall endure;
last like the sun it shall:
Men shall be blessed in Him,
and blessed all nations shall Him call (Ps. 72:17)

Fair enough and sounds good to me

Yes, and if election is God naming individuals in Christ, and Christ's atonement was particular ("limited" to those elect), then so is reprobation individual and particular in nature, which counters the Arminian argument that Romans 9:13 speaks of nations, not the individuals named: Jacob and Esau.

While salvation is individual and personal,it is always with a view to us being members of The body of Christ the church corporately, members in particular 1cor12:12-18 . god has placed the members in the body as it pleases Him.
Each member has come to Mt.Zion the Heavenly Jerusalem.
Hebrews 12:22-24.
When Saul attacked individual church members Jesus asked him why he persecuted Him.
Sanctification has apersonal aspect as well as a Corporate aspect,ie, all of the One Anothering passages, love one another, admonish one another, pray for one another,encorage one another etc.
These things cannot take place apart from individual new birth. anything less than new birth is fleahly and hypocritical.

__________________
Anthony D'Arienzo
Sunday School Teacher
Hope Reformed Baptist Church:
Medford, N.Y.