Pastor, not to sidetrack, but I don't think that failing to remember each and every sin is the same as someone who deliberately sees no need for repentance. There is a large difference between holding a grudge, being bitter, etc. and withholding the extension of forgiveness from those who are continually and blatantly in rebellion toward those whom they've offended, and God Himself. So, I just want to make clear that we should always be ready and willing to forgive, but that I believe forgiveness (leading to reconciliation) can't (literally, is unable) happen, without acknowledged wrong doing, and a declaration of repentance. Even without your confession of specific sins, you declared a change of mind about all your sins (past, present, future) when you confessed your need of Christ. We certainly wouldn't say that Christ has forgiven those who have not repented. So, if we're to forgive as Christ forgave us, then we would forgive those who have repented.

Here's a long thread wherein such was discussed: Should we forgive those who do not repent?

I'd be interested in knowing what you think of it. And lest anyone suspect, I'm not being disingenuous. I really respect most of your contributions here on the PB, so I'm given pause when we don't see things in the same way. Hence, my desire to know how you understand the doctrine of forgiveness and its relationship with repentance.

Thanks, Pastor.

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Josh Hicks, Chloë's Daddy
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Luke 11:4, "And forgive us our sins; for we also forgive every one that is indebted to us."

Calvin, Institutes, III. xx. 45: "as we forgive our debtors;" that is, as we spare and pardon all by whom we are in any way offended, either in deed by unjust, or in word by contumelious treatment. Not that we can forgive the guilt of a fault or offense; this belongs to God only; but we can forgive to this extent: we can voluntarily divest our minds of wrath, hatred, and revenge, and efface the remembrance of injuries by a voluntary oblivion. Wherefore, we are not to ask the forgiveness of our sins from God, unless we forgive the offenses of all who are or have been injurious to us. If we retain any hatred in our minds, if we meditate revenge, and devise the means of hurting; nay, if we do not return to a good understanding with our enemies, perform every kind of friendly office, and endeavour to effect a reconciliation with them, we by this petition beseech God not to grant us forgiveness. For we ask him to do to us as we do to others. This is the same as asking him not to do unless we do also. What, then, do such persons obtain by this petition but a heavier judgment?

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Yours sincerely,


"Illum oportet crescere me autem minui."

This has perhaps been mentioned in the other thread - I haven't followed it - but we must always remember that forgiveness is a single act, by a single party. It requires NOTHING on the part of the offender, which is why we can (and MUST) do it when repentance isn't present. We must recall that forgiveness does not always result in a healed relationship (which DOES require repentance on the offender's part). It's not reconciliation - it's a state of being of the offended party. Hence we can and must forgive ALL who have offended us, period.

This doesn't mean the relationship between us and the offender is healed - it doesn't mean that it's the "way it used to be". That can be a long time coming, and must be, since it does require open and honest dealing with the situation by both parties.

Joshua, what if you were in a car with a friend, and a drunk driver came and crashed head-on into you, injuring you and killing both your friend and the drunk driver. Are you saying that it is impossible for you to forgive that drunk driver, since he, being dead, cannot repent of his sin?

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Todd K. Pedlar
member, First Congregational Church, (CCCC) Cresco, IA
http://semperubi.rtrc.net

"Many men, after a long conversion, see more of the workings of sin in their hearts than ever they did before or at their first conversion. Now, such men have not an increase of sin, but an increase of illumination and light" (Christopher Love)


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I agree, but I don't think that withholding forgiveness (from those who seek it not) should be equated with "retain[ing] ... hatred in our minds, meditat[ing] revenge." Thanks for the response, and I'll be mulling over it.

Just so it is known, I have no desire to be a person who holds grudges, retains bitterness, etc. I'm just trying to think about this in the same manner as the command to forgive others as Christ forgave us (which may be what I'm misunderstanding-did He forgive us before our repentance?).
But it is a response to another single act, no? I'm not trying to be contrary here. This will probably be my last post in the thread, because I just want to sit at y'all's feet and help clear up my understanding of this matter.
I promise, I'm not being disingenuous here. Can you point me to some works that deal specifically with this, using the Scriptures? I think I need to re-think things, but I want to see the passages that were listed in the other thread addressed.
Well, according to my current understanding, I don't see how I can forgive a dead person. Now I can (and should) certainly choose to not be bitter, etc. about it ... but as for forgiveness, doesn't his death nullify that?

I'm listening to ya'll. However, it just seems to me that this is may be just a matter of semantics in the definition of forgiveness. My main contention is that the Scriptures say (and the biblical examples show) we are to forgive as Christ forgave us. And how did he do so? Well, certainly not with an acknowledgment of our sin, and repentance thereof. Now, what I'm not doing is equating the withholding of forgiveness with hoarding bitterness, anger, etc. and just being mean, cruel, etc. to a person.

So, let me make something clear: I believe that Scripture does teach that we should always have a disposition, a readiness, and a willingness to forgive those who offend us (and this is what keeps us from being bitter, angry, jerks, etc.), but that forgiveness itself cannot be given, if the offender doesn't even acknowledge or care that they've done anything to offend.

So ... just listening form here on out. Teach me.

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Josh Hicks, Chloë's Daddy
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Joshua,

I don't think forgiveness has anything to do with the attitude of the offender. It has everything to do with us and God.

"For if you forgive others their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you, but if you do not forgive others their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses." Matthew 6:14-15

"25 And whenever you stand praying, forgive, if you have anything against anyone, so that your Father also who is in heaven may forgive you your trespasses." Mark 11:25

I don't see that there are any conditions at all regarding the offender seeking forgiveness. Forgiveness is for our benefit.

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Janis
Christ Church ARP, NC
"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved." Eph. 1:3-6 ESV

There is one thing about forgiveness that has always confounded me. I can unilaterally forgive someone for trespasses against me intellectually, and the offense and my resentment will abate.... for a time. But then, even years later, the event can come to mind, and for some reason all the pain and resentment will come rushing back, even hatred, and I will have to work at forgiving all over again. i guess I have the idea in my head that forgiveness should be a once-for-all-time event, and when this 'flashback' happens, I feel like maybe I never really did forgive.

Is there maybe a component to real forgiveness along the lines of "forgive, and keep on forgiving"? Just curious.

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Brad
PCA Member
Virginia

Pro 16:33 The lot is cast into the lap; but the whole disposing thereof is of the LORD.

Isa 8:20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.

Did God not forgive us until we asked for forgiveness? While we were yet sinners, Christ loved us and died for our sins. How much of forgiveness of those sins does His doing so entail, or is forgiveness actual reconciliation? Christ also prayed 'Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do' -- obviously before any recognition of offense and repentance was worked in those for whom He was praying?

I think as Josh says there is some confusion about the semantics, in that what we think about this seems to depend on whether forgiveness is reconciliation or is simply refusing to count someone's sins against them in our minds and hearts and dealings with them.

Also, even in the case of it being reconciliation --it seems like forgiveness can't necessarily entail pretending that an offense never happened and so the relationship can carry on exactly as before (ie, someone who's hurt your kids can have access to them again, etc). Forgiveness is not a way of pretending away sin, but a divine way of dealing with it.

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Heidi
Indianapolis, Indiana

After two days, he will revive us; on the third day he will raise us up, that we may live before him.
Let us know; let us press on to know the LORD; his going out is sure as the dawn; he will come to us as the showers, as the spring rains that water the earth.

Is this possibly a proper view -

Forgiveness: To cease resentment

Reconciliation: Restoration of relationship or friendship

and that these are different things, although the second presupposes the first?

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Brad
PCA Member
Virginia

Pro 16:33 The lot is cast into the lap; but the whole disposing thereof is of the LORD.

Isa 8:20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.

Thanks for bringing this up again Josh. There is much that is not understood in regard to this.

Forgiveness - not holding a grudge or cherishing bitterness against another person or harboring any desire to harm them. To forgive is to cease to hold someone accountable.
Reconciliation - The removal of enmity and the restoration of fellowship between two parties.
God through Christ reconciled us to hiimself and gave us the ministry of reconciliation; that is, in Chrsit God was reconciling the world to himself (2 Cor 5:18-19)

We must not cofuse forgiveness and/or reconciliation with forgetting. To forgive is good and necessary, regardless of the actions of others. To fail to forgive harms mainly the one holding a wrong against another. The other may never even know, and yet the failure to forgive may fester within the offended party. Reconciliation is always the goal, but often unatainable. This is where Paul's words are especially pertient:

14Bless those who persecute you; bless and do not curse. 15Rejoice with those who rejoice, and weep with those who weep. 16Be of the same mind toward one another. Do not set your mind on high things, but associate with the humble. Do not be wise in your own opinion. 17Repay no one evil for evil. Have regard for good things in the sight of all men. 18If it is possible, as much as depends on you, live peaceably with all men. 19Beloved, do not avenge yourselves, but rather give place to wrath; for it is written, “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay,” says the Lord. 20Therefore

“If your enemy is hungry, feed him;
If he is thirsty, give him a drink;
For in so doing you will heap coals of fire on his head.”

21Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.

However, to forget is foolish. Though forgiveness is freely given, full restoration can often take years, if even possible. You can be reconciled to fellowship, and yet not be restored to the relationship once shared. This is not sinful. If a man steals then he will be watched. If someone lies then they will not be trusted. We don't bring known pediphiles into church nurseries. This is not based on a failure to forgive, but on wisdom and prudence in light of the circumstances. Discernment must be exercised. God commands us to be wise and use the knowledge of both His word and our lives to understand our circumstances and act in a way that shows wisdom and knowledge couched in godliness.

The perspective that we do not need to forgive until repentance has been expressed is very common and espoused by many that I hold in high esteem. It's taught by many within the neouthetic counseling movement. It's with this in mind that I respectfully disagree. We must consider the character of our Savior, as well as where the real damage lies in such thinking. First, were we regenerated before we repented? Did we ask God to forgive us before the foundation of the world? Have all our sins been atoned for? If so, then who are we to hold one single sin against another? Either Jesus paid the full price on the cross, or they will pay it in eternity. We must be careful not to add to the torment of either. One denigrates the work of the cross. The other fails to understand the horrors of hell.

Also, as long as someone holds on to this they'll "require" some sort of restitution or repentance. If they don't receive it then they will carry this burden the rest of their life.

If God is sovereign (He is!) and does all things for the good of those who love Him and are called according to His purposes (Joseph - Gen 50, Rom 8:28), then He is sovereign over everything that happens in our lives and will use it for His glory and the good of His children. It is not ours to know all the whys, but to rest in His sweet providence and the knowledge that all His promises are true. If someone wrongs us and we fail to forgive them, are we not spitting in the face of this wondrous truth? Are we not spitting in the face of the providence of God?

A lack of forgiveness often leads to anger, or at least some sort of resentment. Almost inevitably the anger one feels in such a situation is a result of a failure to know and understand God, His ways, His sovereignty. Without this knowledge and understanding it is impossible for one to embrace the trials of life with absolute confidence in our Savior to fulfill His promises.

In a nutshell, we love because we're loved and we forgive because we're forgiven. It is the way of Christ, and it must be the way of those who are called by His name.

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For the Glory of our King,
Joe Johnson
Married up in 1988 and blessed with two wonderful sons
TMS graduate
Preacherboy at Cornerstone Community Church, Escanaba, MI
SoundLife.org

I'm sorry, Friends. I'm just not getting it. Does God forgive the unrepentant?

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Josh Hicks, Chloë's Daddy
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I see repentance from sins as a fruit and not a condition, so I say yes. We can trust that all of our sins that we still do are already forgiven in Christ, while our actual, true repentance from those sins may be delayed until the Holy Spirit works us towards that end. For, who can truly say that they have repented from all of their sins? Many are not even relized yet and many still wallow in them.

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Charles Plauger
Member/Grace Reformed Church
Oakland, MD

Perhaps you could ask it this way Joshua:

Do we repent because we're first forgiven? Are we forgiven because we repent?

We know who the initiator is. Can God look upon sin? Can man be adopted and still be unregenerate? Can man be regenerate and not forgiven? Is man capable of truly repenting and yet lack regeneration? The answer becomes obvious, even if we "don't get it."

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For the Glory of our King,
Joe Johnson
Married up in 1988 and blessed with two wonderful sons
TMS graduate
Preacherboy at Cornerstone Community Church, Escanaba, MI
SoundLife.org

A fruit of what? If you mean a fruit of regeneration, then I agree. But if you mean a fruit of forgiveness, you have lost me.

Yes, but on the basis that when becoming a Christian, we've acknowledged our great rebellion against Him, and have repented (changed our minds) of such a direction in life (no doubt, by the Spirit's power).

All of these things mentioned, "praying for those who persecute," not wishing evil upon them, not being bitter, etc. we are all agreed upon that we should do. But these aforementioned things are not forgiveness. Forgiveness is a transaction, and should always lead to closure. Where is it in Scripture that God forgives without repentance, acknowledgment of wrong?

So, I maintain, with others such as Donald Whitney, Dr. Jay Adams', etc. that although we should have "a heart of forgiveness" (i.e. a readiness, willingness, and hopefulness to forgive, we cannot actually forgive, in the biblical sense of the term forgiveness, unless the person says, "I repent." At that point, we can and must forgive, regardless if it's the 8th time or 80th time this person has sinned against us.

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Josh Hicks, Chloë's Daddy
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Yes, a man can be regenerated and not yet forgiven, but regeneration will always result in forgiveness, via means of faith and repentance.

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Josh Hicks, Chloë's Daddy
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Can you explain Joshua? How can a man be regenerate and yet not forgiven (salvifically, not in regard to sanctification)?

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For the Glory of our King,
Joe Johnson
Married up in 1988 and blessed with two wonderful sons
TMS graduate
Preacherboy at Cornerstone Community Church, Escanaba, MI
SoundLife.org

Is not regeneration a change of man's heart, so that he is then made able to see his sinful condition? Thus, he is given the coin of faith/repentance and is forgiven. It's more of a logical understanding than a chronological, but repentance is nonetheless required for forgiveness.

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Josh Hicks, Chloë's Daddy
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(Joshua, just wanted to ask how you would explain Christ's prayer, 'Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do,' on this understanding of forgiveness. Did God not answer that prayer until the people later repented? I'm not sure what to think about this yet, but that verse seems to imply that Christ could secure forgiveness for us before we ourselves were repentant --in other words that God forgave us first?)

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Heidi
Indianapolis, Indiana

After two days, he will revive us; on the third day he will raise us up, that we may live before him.
Let us know; let us press on to know the LORD; his going out is sure as the dawn; he will come to us as the showers, as the spring rains that water the earth.