Concerning those who do not believe in the doctrine of common Grace.
What I would like to know is this, are all those who do not believe in the doctrine of common grace to be thought of as hyper-Calvinist and if so are they to be considered as apostates? I am trying to understand both sides of the issue but am not sure at this time where I stand. I believe that there are a lot of good God fearing men on both sides of the issue and both sides make a good point to some degree. If I find that I can no longer hold to the idea of common grace, would that in and of itself make me a hyper-Calvinist? Not sure who or what to believe as this is a complicated issue especially for someone who is not well educated in theology. I am learning as I go and want to find out as much as I can from both sides. My main concern is that I don't come away with any faulty ideas or misconceptions from either side. Any help would be appreciated here.
Not looking to open a

Thanks.

__________________
Tom Mitchell
Opp, AL
Member of First Presbyterian Church PCA Florala, AL

Open profaneness is the broad dirty way which leads to hell
--but trusting in religious duties is a sure way, though a cleaner way to hell. ~ Thomas Brooks
www.myspace.com/tom_mitchell1960
http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=607055102

FYI. I added a description to your Question; also, you might search for older threads on this topic as there have been a few.

__________________
Chris Coldwell
Lakewood Presbyterian Church (PCA), Member
• Naphtali Press: Presbyterian & Reformed Books
• The Confessional Presbyterian, A Journal for Discussion of Presbyterian Doctrine & Practice
• The Blue Banner Archive

When heresy rises in an evangelical body, it is never frank and open. It always begins by skulking, and assuming a disguise. Its advocates, when together, boast of great improvements, and congratulate one another on having gone greatly beyond the ‘old dead orthodoxy,’ and on having left behind many of its antiquated errors: but when taxed with deviations from the received faith, they complain of the unreasonableness of their accusers, as they ‘differ from it only in words.’ This has been the standing course of errorists ever since the apostolic age. Samuel Miller, Introductory essay, The Articles of the Synod of Dort (1841).

Click to get: Board Rules -- Signature Requirements -- Suggestions?

We have good solid people on both sides of this issue on the PB.

__________________
Dennis E. McFadden, Ex Mainline Baptist (in Remission)
Atherton Baptist Homes, CEO
First Baptist Church of Alhambra, Member, Transformation Ministries (CA)

Click to get: Board Rules -- Signature Requirements -- Suggestions?

Well I guess I had better walk a straight line in between as I don't wish to offend anyone here.
If the Mod thinks it best to delete this thread before it starts into another debate that's fine. I can look at the other posts on the subject and fine what I need I think. Mostly was wondering if non-belief in Common Grace was a step toward apostasy. I don't want to start something that may cause any grief to anyone. I have a too much respect for everyone here to do that.

__________________
Tom Mitchell
Opp, AL
Member of First Presbyterian Church PCA Florala, AL

Open profaneness is the broad dirty way which leads to hell
--but trusting in religious duties is a sure way, though a cleaner way to hell. ~ Thomas Brooks
www.myspace.com/tom_mitchell1960
http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=607055102

The above sentiment would not (in and of itself) qualify you to be a Hyper-Calvinist, although there may be some here who would disagree. I do not believe in Common Grace, as I think the term grace, used in Scripture, tends to always carry an indication of something salvific in nature. I do not believe God ever extends anything salvific toward the non-elect. Yet, I do believe wholeheartedly that whosoever wants to be saved, certainly can be saved.

Ultimately, I think it's usually a debate of semantics. The rain falling on the just and the unjust alike is not grace, in the sense of how Scripture uses grace. In the long run, for those who are not elect, these little "gifts" are ultimately heapings of condemnation, since they've received these gifts and not recognized the Giver.

Just my .

__________________
Josh Hicks, Chloë's Daddy
Member of TRBC. My Blog
The Puritan Pub (Team Blog)
Board Rules -- Signature Requirements -- Suggestions?

The problem with Hyper-Calvinism is that there is no dictionary definition as to some extent it is a term of abuse, it is hard to imagine anyone claiming to be a hyper-calvinist.

The problem of common grace is that it tends to be a catch all concept to justify all sorts of positions, some of which may not otherwise be sustainable. I suppose the best definition of common grace is to say that God has a non-salvic love for the reprobate, I do not however accept that a denial of this position is hyper-calvinism.

Hyper-calvinism in my mind is a denial that the gospel should be preached to the non-elect. This denail is an unbiblical position and is hetrodox. A denial of commmon grace or that the offer of the gospel is "well meant" has powerful biblical support and at heart is often an argument about definitions.

I cannot understand why such a position warrants the label of being apostate, but perhaps this thread will provide enlightenment.

I like Engelsma's book Hyper-Calvinism and the Call of the Gospel, it suffers from a desire to defend his denomination rather than to simply present the issues but it makes a clear powerful case, even if the English can be a bit tortuous at times. I feel that some are so wedded to the doctrine of common grace (because it underpins much of what Kuyper propounded and most forms of Theonomy) that it is not given a fair hearing. Engelsma's book on common grace revisited is also excellent.

__________________
Mike
London City Presbyterian Church
London
England

"Surely, we wish to be orthodox, but we must first learn what real orthodoxy is. Surely, we wish to be progressive, but we must first have a basis to progress from."

Hello Tom,

Generally, I would say that if someone does not believe in "common grace" then their spiritual status would depend on what is meant by "common grace." As others have pointed out, this is ultimately a question of definition.

I my estimation, the term grace / favor in Scripture can be used in different senses. When man is invisioned as a rebel against God's Law, grace is used to describe God's disposition toward such in calling them into His family, and rescuing them from their sin.

However, grace can also be used to describe an award given for the achievement of some goal, or general "likeableness" or even of something given without regard to the worthiness of the recipient. For instance, Paul tells us that Christ was "given the Name above every name" (Phil 2:9). Clearly, in context, Christ was rewarded with this Name because He did not grasp at His Divine glory, but emptied Himself, took on the form of a servant, became obedient to God's commands, even though those commands included His cross-death! Clearly it is a reward based on merit. And yet, Paul says that God has "given" or graced Him with a Name above all other names.

All that to say, common grace can refer to non-elect being saved (in a heretical sense), or it can merely refer to God showing kindness to those who don't deserve it. I take it in the latter sense, and am not concerned about the term "grace", since (as all words) it has a range of meaning, or (as they say) a semantic range.

Cheers,

Adam

__________________
Adam Brink, Livermore Wine Country, California
Grace Church of Pleasanton, PCA

Attorney: Chicolini, when were you born?
Chicolini: I don't remember. I was just a little baby.
~Chico Marx in Duck Soup

A true statement. I may not be able to define hyper-Calvinism, but I can certainly identify some of it's attributes. Hyper-Calvinism tends towards an elitist view of its own associations, even above other Christian fellowships. Hyper-Calvinism permeates a passive-aggressive arrogance that can almost be felt. They'll never quite vocalize their superiority complex, but if you hang around them long enough it will be visible in everything they do. Hyper-Calvinist's hate the lost and do so with what they consider to be godly sanction. Only the elect will be saved so God is is justified in condemning the ungodly. Therefore the labors of the hyper-Calvinist are invested in their private club of elect individuals. Hyper-Calvinists tend to be pompous, which fits in with their elitism. They will give lip service to grace, but somewhere in the back of their minds they meet up with Arminianism and Pelagianism. Go far enough away from the truth and you will cross paths with the very thing you claim to revile.

__________________
Bill Brown
Elder
Grace Baptist Church
Anne Arundel County, Maryland

Click to get: Board Rules -- Signature Requirements -- Suggestions?

Hyper-Calvinsim is often traced back to the UK with the stablsihment of the Gospel Standard Baptists who held that:

XXVI We deny duty faith and duty repentance - these terms signifying that it is every man's duty spiritually and savingly to repent and believe... we reject the doctrine that men in a state of nature should be exhorted to believe in or turn to God....

XXIX While we believe that the gospel is to be preached in or proclaimed to all the world.... we deny offers of grace; that is to say, that the gospel is to be offered indiscriminately to all.

XXXII We believe that it would be unsafe, from the brief records we have of the way in which the apostles, under the immediate direction of the Lord, addressed their hearers in certain special cases and circumstances, to derive absolute and universal rules for ministerial addresses in the present day under widely- different circumstances...

XXXIII Therefore, that for ministers in the present day to address unconverted persons, or indiscriminately all in a mixed congregation, calling upon them savingly to repent, believe, and receive Christ, or perform any other acts dependent upon the new creative power of the Holy Ghost, is, on the one hand, to imply creature power, and, on the other, to deny the doctrine of special redemption.

It is the horror of preaching the Gospel to mixed congragations which is in my view both theologically indefensible and damaging to the Church and for this reason I think that it is best to limit hyper-calvinism to this aspect, any wider and it looses its meaning.

__________________
Mike
London City Presbyterian Church
London
England

"Surely, we wish to be orthodox, but we must first learn what real orthodoxy is. Surely, we wish to be progressive, but we must first have a basis to progress from."

Just in case someone doesn't have Dr. Curt Daniel's Calvinism lectures.

__________________
Dawie
Member, Gereformeerde Kerk
South-Africa
"No man shall ever behold the glory of Christ by sight in heaven who does not, in some measure, behold it by faith in this world." - Owen
"No one will seek the righteousness which is of faith except he who feels that he is ungodly" - Calvin
Assurance of faith Reading matter

I liked Dr. Daniel's lectures a great deal. He put things into perspective for me. Just realize that he has a soft spot for low Calvinism (he would consider it moderate), has good things to say about Amyraldianism, and is quite impatient with hyper-Calvinism. I guess if you spent that many years at Edinburgh writing a dissertation on the subject, you might get a little cranky.

__________________
Dennis E. McFadden, Ex Mainline Baptist (in Remission)
Atherton Baptist Homes, CEO
First Baptist Church of Alhambra, Member, Transformation Ministries (CA)

Click to get: Board Rules -- Signature Requirements -- Suggestions?

I don't believe in Common Grace as defined by the Christian Reformed Church in their dispute with Hoeksema. Not only are there several definitions of hypercalvinism; there are also several definitions of common grace.
I am more concerned with the way some append their concept of a free well meant offer of the Gospel to their doctrine of Common Grace.
Does that make me hypercalvinist? If it does then John H Gerstner was also a hypercalvinist.

__________________
Thomas Yeutter,
Mason, MI
Member St. Patrick's Anglican Church, Comstock, MI

Ezra 7:10 For Ezra had set his heart to study the law of the Lord and to do it and to teach its statues in Isreal.

What is this "horror" that you speak of addressing the lost? Is this the view of Hypercalvinism or are you adovcating that this is a horror? Please explain.

__________________
Pergamum


"If a commission by an earthly king is considered a honor, how can a commission by a Heavenly King be considered a sacrifice?"
-- David Livingstone

Huh? When did I say/imply such a thing?

__________________
Josh Hicks, Chloë's Daddy
Member of TRBC. My Blog
The Puritan Pub (Team Blog)
Board Rules -- Signature Requirements -- Suggestions?

Perg, he's not advocating the horror.

I took it to mean that those who have such a horror (afraid to preach the gospel to a mixed congregation) are the ones who are theologically ungrounded.

__________________
R.Vic Bottomly
Providence Reformed Baptist Church, Tacoma, WA

Click to get: Board Rules -- Signature Requirements -- Suggestions?

What he said.

__________________
Mike
London City Presbyterian Church
London
England

"Surely, we wish to be orthodox, but we must first learn what real orthodoxy is. Surely, we wish to be progressive, but we must first have a basis to progress from."

Rather than the term "common grace," we could refer to God's universal benevolence or kindness, even to the non-elect. That rain does fall and that sun does shine on all people.

__________________
Dr. Don Kistler