I was listening to my pastor's sermon on The Justice of Hell (if you would like to listen to it HERE)

Now I am a firm believer in the doctrine and justice of hell. I find it very rational because of the magnitude of sin against a holy God. But a lot of those non-believers or those who don't believe in hell will find hell irrational. So analogies have to suffice to provide reason, to give a case for conviction in the doctrine (if the Father allows).

My example, and I would like to know if it works. This is not the doctrine but a process of why hell should be reasonable.

Hell is torment that goes on forever, Rev. 14:10,11
Now analogous, we live in a world that is continued torment from all things around us such as temptation to sin, the sins that we do commit, the pains from the sins we have, the infliction from others to us, injustice in all aspects of life, the innocent being killed and the greedy getting away with it, constant stress and things to do, etc... The point is is that this world is a constant threat and while we live we shall not escape persecution - believer or not.

Romans 1:18-23
Our LORD sees these things in His creation. These are the things of the world that give us torment. Men hold these things with pride and say in their heart "there is no God."

Then
And then these people:
God gave them over.

The desire of depraved man is not God, therefore the depraved man is an enemy to God and loves the things of the world. We cannot love God and love the world at the same time.

Because they love the world, upon judgment, God gives them over to WHAT they want, viz. the world, i.e. torment. Who would want to live the rest of his days on earth? There is no rest on earth - it is toiling so we have to love and obey that which is greater than us, the Living God and His Son Jesus Christ. If we do not want God and Christ while on earth, why would the LORD intend to put a man into what he does not love for eternity? Therefore, the logical result would be a place that is full of torment - where you came from (the earth) you are now going because your sin is reckoned, below the earth to Hell.

So God puts us away from Himself to allow us to satisfy our own desires as exampled on earth, in hell.

Is there anything wrong with this reasoning? Granted it will be far worse than hell but if a man has no hope but to stay on earth for eternity, there is no hope in that. Therefore, those who love God and believe and obey His Son, are taken away from this earth and the rest are given up to WHAT THEY WANT here on earth - viz., the sins. I guess entirely, sinners are given up and hell, in essence, is the desire of earthly man because he would not have to be subject to God at all. Unrepentant and unbelieving man is sent to his desire - hell.

Thank you.

Hell is a physical place and God is present in hell (in His wrath)...in fact, it is the wrathful presence of God that makes hell hell.

__________________
Pergamum


"If a commission by an earthly king is considered a honor, how can a commission by a Heavenly King be considered a sacrifice?"
-- David Livingstone

Okay. So it is not apart from God? I understand that the saving from hell is the salvation FROM God's wrath. So what is wrong with the reasoning (I am asking genuinely and would not like to be in error) and if so, what would make it better as a formulation of an analogy? Thank you!

It is true that the children of hell experience a foretaste of hell on this earth before they die, but there is also eternal afterlife in a location where they suffer the process of suffering in the place of hell.

But if the earthly realm is what they relish in, would it be rational to say that it is hell that they desire? Because denying Christ is accepting punishment for the denial?

So, what happens after we die and after Jesus returns?

Please elaborate Pergs.

This may miss your question entirely, but I have found a Sunday school class that we had at my church recently very helpful on this topic. I would highly recommend you listening to these classes here.

__________________
"Peace if possible, truth at all costs." (Martin Luther)

David G. Suggs Jr.
New Covenant, PCA
Anderson, South Carolina

I am trying to determine what your view of hell actually is?

My view of hell is that place where the thirst is never quenched and the worm never dies. The lake of fire. The epitome of God's wrath against the unrighteous. That hell is legally owed to those who who are lawbreakers and and those who practice evil.

The actual place? I am not sure but I am sure that if one is not repentant of their infinite crimes against God, they will end up there. It is called 'below' and there are many representations of hell such as with stalagmites and lakes of fire looking like a cave. But I imagine that it will be eternal torture from God because of His wrath toward the sin's they committed.

May I ask, genuinely to learn, what your view of hell is? Thank you for the questions, they are helping.

Thank you. I tried to stream it but it said that it cannot accept anymore connections at this time. Must be a lot of folks getting in on it. Downloading and listening.

I may be making a moot point that everyone understands already.

My view of hell is yours.

Rereading your post, yes, God does turn the sinner over to his own desires. I am not sure why this would be a process; unless of course sinners get sinnyer as they get older..which is in a sense true - since the weight of their sins grow daily. But sinners do not get their desire in hell because they are ever aware of the God they hate due to His wrathful presence.

I guess my point is this: unknowingly, unregenerate man who lives in sin and denies God and faith in Christ, desires hell and they will be given to that desire. The great irony when they end up in hell to realize that hell is the state they were living for all along. Maybe?

You posted at the same time I did. sinnier? I see what you are saying here.

I don;t think anyone desires hell.

Some define hell as solely being away from the presence of God. Sinners do want this. They want to be away from God.

But I don't like to fdefine hell like this - hell is not mere absence of God, it is a place of punishment and a place of God's wrathful presence.

Hell is eternal torment - what is it? I guess it would be God's own design and not something for us to know; but for us to know that Christ is the power to rescue us from God's wrath because of our sin.

Some people say, "It will be like sitting at a bus stop, and you have to sit there until the bus comes. There will be signs that the bus is coming, but it never comes." Or something like that where it is known that God is not present and you are left to that which WOULD torture you - like eternally waiting for nothing. Or the myth of Sisyphus where he has to get the boulder to the top of the hill but something always makes it fall about 3/4 the way up, for eternity. Those are what I have heard.

I am listening to Joe Noblitt from the link above and it is a good description of the doctrine.

I think it would be more like being strapped to the bus tire for all eternity as the bus rolls along...


Your analogies seem to point to unfulfilled longing. But I think hell is utter horror, pain,, despair too, but mostly judgment and punishment. This view is not popular today.

Amen that it is not liked today. I think that is evident on how much it is preached from the pulpit. You don't see "The Reformed Doctrine of Hell" next to T.D. Jakes, Joel Osteen and Joyce Meyer in Target or Wal-Mart.

Sinners in the Hands is a great grounding sermon.