Thread: Poll: The Christian is required to give at least 10% of income

Originally Posted by Damon Rambo

Scripture, nowhere, requires the Christian to give money. It simply says give what you want.

And yet you measure one's sanctification/regeneration on this unrequired act?

Originally Posted by Joshua

Originally Posted by Damon Rambo

Scripture, nowhere, requires the Christian to give money. It simply says give what you want.

And yet you measure one's sanctification/regeneration on this unrequired act?

On their desire to give: not necessarily money.

Please note: "Required" means:

re·quired (r-kwrd)
adj.
1. Needed; essential: missing several required parts.
2. Obligatory: required reading.

If it is POSSIBLE to be a Christian, and NOT give money, then it is NOT a requirement. Do we "have to" do it? No. Therefore, it is not required.

Originally Posted by Damon Rambo

Originally Posted by Joshua

Originally Posted by Damon Rambo

Scripture, nowhere, requires the Christian to give money. It simply says give what you want.

And yet you measure one's sanctification/regeneration on this unrequired act?

On their desire to give: not necessarily money.

Why would they have a desire to give?

Tithing and the Sabbath have some similarities: both recognize the faith that God will provide for all our needs: the Sabbath, because God provides what we need for 7 days in 6 days worth of work, and the tithe (plus offering) because God provides enough both for His church and for our day-to-day needs.

I am rather surprised, both by the poll and by some of the responses. Yes, all that we do should flow from a grateful, gospel-changed heart. But that doesn't give us a bye just because our heart isn't in it. I may not [I]feel[/I very respectful to my husband sometimes (sorry Brian!), but that doesn't absolve me of the requirement to show him respect. Also, I've only encountered the idea of the tithe somehow going away amongst dispensationalists.

Originally Posted by Romans922

Originally Posted by Damon Rambo

Originally Posted by Joshua

And yet you measure one's sanctification/regeneration on this unrequired act?

On their desire to give: not necessarily money.

Why would they have a desire to give?

Cause they love God?

Why do I buy my wife flowers? Because I have to? No, if I have to, it loses the meaning for which it is meant. The New Testament idea of giving, rather than equating to the "tithe", would better be compared to the "free will offering." The free will offering was not required; it was a form of showing love, appreciation, etc.

Originally Posted by Damon Rambo

Why do I buy my wife flowers? Because I have to?

I wouldn't question your love for your wife, or the state of your marriage, just b/c you didn't give flowers. But you're absolutely not willing to grant the same to Christians who don't give, even though you say they don't have to give if they don't want to.

"A lot of sense-making, you are not." - Yoda

Originally Posted by Joshua

Originally Posted by Damon Rambo

Why do I buy my wife flowers? Because I have to?

I wouldn't question your love for your wife, or the state of your marriage, just b/c you didn't give flowers. But you're absolutely not willing to grant the same to Christians who don't give, even though you say they don't have to give if they don't want to.

"A lot of sense-making, you are not." - Yoda

I did not say that. I said didn't WANT to give. Their is a big difference.

For instance, say there is a "little old lady" on a fixed income of 1200 dollars a month. Her bills, counting food, use all of that up. So she has no money to give, but does serve God by teaching Sunday school, and helping with the day care.

Another man is a member of a church. The church is pulling in lots of money. It has a large surplus. But he notices things around the church that need doing: there is a light switch that is broken, a wheelchair rail that needs repaired, and there is some poison ivy at the playground that needs to be rooted up. Rather than putting money in the plate, he decides he will come to the church the next couple of Saturdays, and take care of these problems.

Another man, wants to support a particular missionary. His church Vetoes the idea, because they are saving up for a new church building. The man decides that rather than giving the church the money, he will redirect it to the African missionary.

All of these ways are "giving" without "tithing", and in NONE of the examples above, are they being disobedient, or not doing something that is "required."

However, another example would be ...


A man makes 200k a year. He has a large house, several cars, and a surplus of money. When the plate comes around at his church, he thinks to himself "That's my money: I earned it. Why should I give any up?"

That man, while not breaking any "tithing" commandment (since no such commandment has been given), has broken the 1st and greatest commandment, to "love the Lord your God" with all your heart, mind and soul.

Originally Posted by Damon Rambo

Another man is a member of a church. The church is pulling in lots of money. It has a large surplus. But he notices things around the church that need doing: there is a light switch that is broken, a wheelchair rail that needs repaired, and there is some poison ivy at the playground that needs to be rooted up. Rather than putting money in the plate, he decides he will come to the church the next couple of Saturdays, and take care of these problems.

Another man, wants to support a particular missionary. His church Vetoes the idea, because they are saving up for a new church building. The man decides that rather than giving the church the money, he will redirect it to the African missionary.

All of these ways are "giving" without "tithing", and in NONE of the examples above, are they being disobedient, or not doing something that is "required."

I would argue that these are better examples of offerings rather than tithes.

Originally Posted by Damon Rambo

Originally Posted by Joshua

Originally Posted by Damon Rambo

Why do I buy my wife flowers? Because I have to?

I wouldn't question your love for your wife, or the state of your marriage, just b/c you didn't give flowers. But you're absolutely not willing to grant the same to Christians who don't give, even though you say they don't have to give if they don't want to.

"A lot of sense-making, you are not." - Yoda

I did not say that. I said didn't WANT to give. Their is a big difference.

For instance, say there is a "little old lady" on a fixed income of 1200 dollars a month. Her bills, counting food, use all of that up. So she has no money to give, but does serve God by teaching Sunday school, and helping with the day care.

There is your problem. Giving to you is backwards. God wants your first fruits, you are looking at it as whatever you have left over. She has plenty to give BEFORE bills, food, etc.

Originally Posted by Romans922

Originally Posted by Damon Rambo

Originally Posted by Joshua

I wouldn't question your love for your wife, or the state of your marriage, just b/c you didn't give flowers. But you're absolutely not willing to grant the same to Christians who don't give, even though you say they don't have to give if they don't want to.

"A lot of sense-making, you are not." - Yoda

I did not say that. I said didn't WANT to give. Their is a big difference.

For instance, say there is a "little old lady" on a fixed income of 1200 dollars a month. Her bills, counting food, use all of that up. So she has no money to give, but does serve God by teaching Sunday school, and helping with the day care.

There is your problem. Giving to you is backwards. God wants your first fruits, you are looking at it as whatever you have left over. She has plenty to give BEFORE bills, food, etc.

That's funny. Can't find anywhere in the Bible where it talks about giving God MONEY before paying the people you owe. I would call that "Theft". Your not really giving God anything: the light company, mortgage company, etc., did.

You cannot apply the Old Testament TITHE to the New Testament OFFERING.

I voted "unsure," but we use 10% as a guideline. If left up to me, it would be less then 10%, and I am glad that scripture has provided us with the tithe as a guideline if not as a requirement.

Originally Posted by Scottish Lass

I would argue that these are better examples of offerings rather than tithes.

Exactly. Tithes do not apply to Christians. We give offerings.

Originally Posted by Damon Rambo

Originally Posted by Scottish Lass

I would argue that these are better examples of offerings rather than tithes.

Exactly. Tithes do not apply to Christians. We give offerings.

None of your examples pay the light bill, either. If everyone adopted your examples, how would the church function?

Originally Posted by Scottish Lass

None of your examples pay the light bill, either. If everyone adopted your examples, how would the church function?

They wouldn't. God is sovereign, and will put it into peoples hearts to give, in the way that He wants them to give. Everyone has different gifts and positions, which God assigns.

Tell me, did Peter preach a sermon on "tithing" in Acts 1?

Act 2:45 And they were selling their possessions and belongings and distributing the proceeds to all, as any had need.

Well, God is sovereign, we shouldn't use contraception (oh, that's another thread...)

Originally Posted by romans922

well, god is sovereign, we shouldn't use contraception (oh, that's another thread...)

lol.

Simple question: Does anyone in the New Covenant feel that they have a sense of favor with God by tithing their income?

Please answer yes or no.

Lest anyone feels I am leading them on, I will share my own thoughts. I personally believe tithing was a type and shadow of a far greater reality. I believe Christ wants much much more than our first 10%. And by this I mean that the scope is far greater than money (not that it doesn't include money). I think if anyone feels that they find favor with God by giving a simple 10% of firstfruits, they would seem to be clinging to the type and shadow.

Example:

A person lives with abundant income. The practice of 10% is no problem whatsoever. In all reality, they could give much more but choose not to.

Ok, I am going to presume that many will pause here and some may perhaps respond that tithing is a minimum. God indeed knows their heart and they should be able to give more but for some reason they do not.

Keep in mind we are dealing with the New Covenant.

So then does it begin with money and end with the heart? Does God in effect say give me 10% to qualify for your heart to be measured?

I think not.

2Cor 9:6-7

Originally Posted by Michael Turner

Please answer yes or no.

Yes or no. There ya go, Friend.

Originally Posted by Joshua

Yes or no. There ya go, Friend.

Finally someone who gives a straight answer!

Originally Posted by Damon Rambo

Because I have to? No, if I have to, it loses the meaning for which it is meant.

Damon,

This sounds like an antinomian view of love. Do you believe that obeying the 10 commandments of God is not a requirement? Or were you just referring to the command to tithe?

Cheers,

Originally Posted by Christusregnat

Originally Posted by Damon Rambo

Because I have to? No, if I have to, it loses the meaning for which it is meant.

Damon,

This sounds like an antinomian view of love. Do you believe that obeying the 10 commandments of God is not a requirement? Or were you just referring to the command to tithe?

Cheers,

"Antinomian" would mean that I am condoning "running naked in the streets." Obviously I am not.

Could you please point out somewhere in the Bible where we are COMMANDED to give 10 percent of our money?

Originally Posted by Damon Rambo

Originally Posted by Christusregnat

Originally Posted by Damon Rambo

Because I have to? No, if I have to, it loses the meaning for which it is meant.

Damon,

This sounds like an antinomian view of love. Do you believe that obeying the 10 commandments of God is not a requirement? Or were you just referring to the command to tithe?

Cheers,

"Antinomian" would mean that I am condoning "running naked in the streets." Obviously I am not.

Could you please point out somewhere in the Bible where we are COMMANDED to give 10 percent of our money?

Damon,

Before I answer your question, can you tell me whether Christians are required to obey the 10 Commandments?

Cheers,

Adam

Originally Posted by Christusregnat

Originally Posted by Damon Rambo

Originally Posted by Christusregnat

Damon,

This sounds like an antinomian view of love. Do you believe that obeying the 10 commandments of God is not a requirement? Or were you just referring to the command to tithe?

Cheers,

"Antinomian" would mean that I am condoning "running naked in the streets." Obviously I am not.

Could you please point out somewhere in the Bible where we are COMMANDED to give 10 percent of our money?

Damon,

Before I answer your question, can you tell me whether Christians are required to obey the 10 Commandments?

Cheers,

Adam

Define "required."

"Required" means something that is intrinsic, without which that certain thing ceases to be that thing.

In other words, to say that the 10 commandments are "required" of a Christian, would mean that if the Christian lies, they would cease being a Christian. Since I believe in Perseverance of the Saints, and salvation by Grace through faith apart from works, I have no choice but to say "no."

However, if you wish to reword your statement, with a word besides "required," then perhaps I can better answer your question.

Originally Posted by Damon Rambo

"Required" means something that is intrinsic, without which that certain thing ceases to be that thing.

In other words, to say that the 10 commandments are "required" of a Christian, would mean that if the Christian lies, they would cease being a Christian. Since I believe in Perseverance of the Saints, and salvation by Grace through faith apart from works, I have no choice but to say "no."

However, if you wish to reword your statement, with a word besides "required," then perhaps I can better answer your question.

Does God require perfection to get into heaven? Yep, He does.

Originally Posted by Damon Rambo

However, if you wish to reword your statement, with a word besides "required," then perhaps I can better answer your question.

You already defined "required" yourself:

Originally Posted by Damon Rambo

Please note: "Required" means:

re·quired (r-kwrd)
adj.
1. Needed; essential: missing several required parts.
2. Obligatory: required reading.

(emphasis mine)


Do you believe that obeying the 10 Commandments is required of Christians? I did not say "required to remain justified" or "to become a Christian". Does God require Christians to obey the 10 Commandments?

Cheers,

Adam

Originally Posted by Christusregnat

Originally Posted by Damon Rambo

However, if you wish to reword your statement, with a word besides "required," then perhaps I can better answer your question.

You already defined "required" yourself:

Originally Posted by Damon Rambo

Please note: "Required" means:

re·quired (r-kwrd)
adj.
1. Needed; essential: missing several required parts.
2. Obligatory: required reading.

(emphasis mine)


Do you believe that obeying the 10 Commandments is required of Christians? I did not say "required to remain justified" or "to become a Christian". Does God require Christians to obey the 10 Commandments?

Cheers,

Adam

Again, notice the definition above. "Obligatory" means something necessary. Notice the quote "required reading". If something is required reading in a course, and you do not do it, you fail the course.

If a "required part" is missing out of an engine (such as a crankshaft and pistons) it ceases to be an engine.

So, no, the Ten Commandments are not required to be saved. A Christian can lie, and they will still be a Christian (saved by Grace).
If you would like to choose a different word....

Originally Posted by Damon Rambo

So, no, the Ten Commandments are not required to be saved. A Christian can lie, and they will still be a Christian (saved by Grace).
If you would like to choose a different word....

So you believe that you are not obliged to keep the 10 Commandments. Are you bound to keep the 10 Commandments?

By the way, keeping God's commandments is the way God has appointed us to salvation.

Cheers,

Adam

Originally Posted by Damon Rambo

So, no, the Ten Commandments are not required to be saved.

I would argue that they are indeed required for salvation, as is the perfection that Joshua asked about. However, the difference for the Christian is that Jesus kept the commandments perfectly and we are clothed in his righteousness.

Originally Posted by Christusregnat

Originally Posted by Damon Rambo

So, no, the Ten Commandments are not required to be saved. A Christian can lie, and they will still be a Christian (saved by Grace).
If you would like to choose a different word....

So you believe that you are not obliged to keep the 10 Commandments. Are you bound to keep the 10 Commandments?

I do not believe a Christian loses their salvation if they lie, no.

By the way, keeping God's commandments is the way God has appointed us to salvation.

Cheers,

Adam

If you are speaking of positional justification, I would agree with you. However, if you are saying by this that God saves us by making us literally, physically, and perfectly keep the ten commandments, then "the truth is not in you" : for scripture is clear that Christians still sin.

-----Added 11/19/2009 at 03:42:59 EST-----

Originally Posted by Michael Turner

Originally Posted by Damon Rambo

So, no, the Ten Commandments are not required to be saved.

I would argue that they are indeed required for salvation, as is the perfection that Joshua asked about. However, the difference for the Christian is that Jesus kept the commandments perfectly and we are clothed in his righteousness.

That is why I stated, that I agree in the sense of "positional Justification."

Originally Posted by Damon Rambo

Originally Posted by Christusregnat

Originally Posted by Damon Rambo

However, if you wish to reword your statement, with a word besides "required," then perhaps I can better answer your question.

You already defined "required" yourself:

Originally Posted by Damon Rambo

Please note: "Required" means:

re·quired (r-kwrd)
adj.
1. Needed; essential: missing several required parts.
2. Obligatory: required reading.

(emphasis mine)


Do you believe that obeying the 10 Commandments is required of Christians? I did not say "required to remain justified" or "to become a Christian". Does God require Christians to obey the 10 Commandments?

Cheers,

Adam

Again, notice the definition above. "Obligatory" means something necessary. Notice the quote "required reading". If something is required reading in a course, and you do not do it, you fail the course.

If a "required part" is missing out of an engine (such as a crankshaft and pistons) it ceases to be an engine.

So, no, the Ten Commandments are not required to be saved. A Christian can lie, and they will still be a Christian (saved by Grace).
If you would like to choose a different word....

All right, let's back this one up a bit. Required or "obligatory" is exactly how our confession describes obedience to the law for Christians:

V. The moral law doth forever bind all, as well justified persons as others, to the obedience thereof; and that not only in regard of the matter contained in it, but also in respect of the authority of God the Creator who gave it. Neither doth Christ in the gospel any way dissolve, but much strengthen, this obligation.

While we are not justified by our obedience, nor do we lose our salvation for our sins, we are indeed required to obey God's laws. The very covenant of Grace tells us, "Walk before me and be thou perfect [or upright, sincere]." We are to "strive after holiness, without which no man shall see the LORD."

Originally Posted by Damon Rambo

Originally Posted by Christusregnat

So you believe that you are not obliged to keep the 10 Commandments. Are you bound to keep the 10 Commandments?

I do not believe a Christian loses their salvation if they lie, no.

Male audis. Being bound to keep the 10 Commandments is what your confession (LBCF 1689) teaches. Tolle lege.

Originally Posted by Damon Rambo

However, if you are saying by this that God saves us by making us literally, physically, and perfectly keep the ten commandments, then "the truth is not in you" : for scripture is clear that Christians still sin.

I am saying that sancification is a process by which we are more and more enable to put to death the deeds of the body, and live to righteousness, keeping God's law. This is part of our salvation.

Cheers,

Adam

Keeping of the whole law is required to be saved. We, being incapable of keeping said law, have our salvation through an alien righteousness, that of Christ's keeping of the whole law for us and in our place, just as He took upon Himself the required punishment for our sin, for us and in our place.

The only use of the term 'firstfruits' in the NT is in reference to the saints, which is indicative of the fact that not any mere portion of who we are, what we possess, and by what measure we prosper, is the Lord's, but every whit. He that sows sparingly shall reap sparingly, and God loves a cheerful giver. Unless your righteousness exceeds that of the Pharisees, you shall in no case enter into the kingdom of Heaven. Praise God that He provided for us that righteousness.

Remember what the Lord said to some meticulous tithers:

Mat 23:23 "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you tithe mint and dill and cumin, and have neglected the weightier matters of the law: justice and mercy and faithfulness. These you ought to have done, without neglecting the others.
Mat 23:24 You blind guides, straining out a gnat and swallowing a camel!

Leaving aside the issue of whether NT Israel (the Church) is under compulsion to tithe, it makes sense that by the preaching of those neglected things, which is the Gospel of Christ, the first would not be left undone by God's people, and far beyond. 10% is paltry.

Which of you would not rejoice at being able to give more than you do? Sometimes you folks freak me out. When I write that check, I'm always torn between the joy over being able to give and the sorrow over it not being more. I always figured we all went through that.

I've lived in a Christian commune where all I earned went to the Church, and to be honest, I LIKED that better. Guess I'm just weird, but this whole mammon thing has never been my cup of tea.

Originally Posted by Christusregnat

Male audis. Being bound to keep the 10 Commandments is what your confession (LBCF 1689) teaches. Tolle lege.

It is also in the Particular Baptist Benjamin Keach's catechism.

Q. 50. What does the preface to the Ten Commandments teach us?

A. The preface to the Ten Commandments teaches us, that because God is the Lord, and our God and Redeemer, therefore we are bound to keep all His commandments.

(Deut 11:1)

We should give generously, liberally and even sacrificially, but I don’t believe tithing is for the Church. However, with so many of our brothers and sisters on hard times because of the poor economy we should be giving to those in need, since there is absolutely no ambiguity in the NT or OT about that.

What about folks who are always in the red on their bank account? Should they still give, since technically it is not their money to give.. its borrowed money.

Like the Sabbath, tithing helps an overall order in your life: you must plan your finances (and time) well enough to set aside tithes and offerings for God. Folks, God doesn't need our measly money or goods. He owns everything! Our tithe is an acknowledgment of that! He blesses us through the order this brings to our lives.

By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous. Heb 11:4

Originally Posted by Brad

Originally Posted by ChariotsofFire

At the very least, can we say that 10% is a good example from Scripture to follow?

Or maybe somewhere between there and the widow's mite?

The widow's mite was probably a lot higher than 10% for her

Originally Posted by Bern

What about folks who are always in the red on their bank account? Should they still give, since technically it is not their money to give.. its borrowed money.

The person who always has red in their bank account has other issues besides giving to their church. I fully believe that God calls us to be faithful and good stewards over the things He has entrusted to us, including finances. To be always in the red would be an example of poor stewardship and self-discipline would certainly be in order.

Does Grace blot out God's Law? Because of Christ has God changed? Should we tithe? Is it part of God's Law? Questions are all I have, answers not so much