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    Dieter Schneider is offline. Puritanboard Sophomore
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    PCUSA rejects popular hymn “In Christ Alone”

    PCUSA rejects popular hymn “In Christ Alone”. Why? Click here to find out!
    Independent Baptist Church (NE England, nr. Durham)

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    SeanPatrickCornell's Avatar
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    I guess the EP folks can always say "Good! Now toss out the others too!"
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    Quote Originally Posted by SeanPatrickCornell View Post
    I guess the EP folks can always say "Good! Now toss out the others too!"
    Sean, I hope that was tongue in cheek.

    It's one thing to "toss" out hymns because of God's prescriptions for biblical worship, it's quite another, and a horrendous thing, mind you, to toss them out, as you say, because of a rejection of the Gospel.
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    This is really nothing new. The PC(USA) when it came out with its last hymnal neutered a whole bunch of popular hymns.
    Rev. Benjamin P. Glaser, M. Div, ARP
    Pastor, Ellisville Presbyterian Church, ARP
    Ellisville, Mississippi

    ‎‎"Ministers of the Gospel, when dispensing the truths of God, must preach home to their own souls, as well as unto others. Sir's, we do not deliver truths or doctrines to you, wherein we ourselves have no manner of concern. No, our own souls are at the stake, and shall either perish or be saved eternally, as we receive or reject these precious truths which we deliver unto you. And truly, it can never be expected that we will apply the truths of God with any warmth or liveliness unto others, unless we first make a warm application thereof to our own souls. And if we do not feed upon these doctrines, and practise these duties, which we deliver to and inculcate upon you, though we preach unto others, we ourselves are but castaways." -- Ebenezer Erskine, "The Assurance of Faith", pg. 8

    Deo Vindice

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    Jack K's Avatar
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    "In Christ Alone" is one of few songs I can think of that's just a decade or two old but is rich enough in content that the words sound like a surviving hymn from hundreds of years ago.
    Jack K.
    PCA, worshiping with some fine Baptists in Colorado
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack K View Post
    "In Christ Alone" is one of few songs I can think of that's just a decade or two old but is rich enough in content that the words sound like a surviving hymn from hundreds of years ago.
    Agreed!!!
    I actually thought it was written centuries ago...
    Ray
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    Andres's Avatar
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    This about sums it up...

    Although not all PCUSA churches are theologically liberal, the denomination by and large is. Liberalism and wrath go together like oil and water; they don’t mix. And historically speaking, one of them eventually has to go. When wrath goes, so does the central meaning of the atonement of Christ—penal substitution. At the end of the day, the cross itself is the stumbling block, and that is why the PCUSA cannot abide this hymn.
    Andrew Silva
    RE OPC (currently not serving)
    Dallas Reformed Presbyterian Church (RPCNA)
    North Dallas

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    It shows their lack of the knowledge of God, His attributes. Remove God's wrath and it is no more God we are worshipping.
    Rick
    Teacher/Apologist
    Baptist
    SE Missouri


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    KMK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SolaSaint View Post
    It shows their lack of the knowledge of God, His attributes. Remove God's wrath and it is no more God we are worshipping.
    IOW, it shows their disdain for the 3rd Commandment. They may think it is no big deal, but God will not hold them guiltless. Their behavior should cause us to rededicate ourselves to the hallowing of His name that we don't join them on that slippery slope.


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    Quote Originally Posted by N. Eshelman View Post
    Sean, I hope that was tongue in cheek.
    I admit that text sometimes doesn't carry intent well, but honestly, I don't see how it could have been taken any other way.

    Nevertheless, yes, it was tongue in cheek.

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    DMcFadden's Avatar
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    Hmmm. You do know who trains more PCUSA pastors than any of their own ten seminaries, don't you?

    Although N.T Wright claims to hold "some form" of the penal substitution view within the context of his larger Christus Victor approach, you've got to wonder.

    Wright, himself, comments on the song, "In Christ Alone," when he writes:

    It is all too possible to take elements from the biblical witness and present them within a controlling narrative gleaned from somewhere else, like a child doing a follow-the-dots puzzle without paying attention to the numbers and producing a dog instead of a rabbit. This is what happens when people present over-simple stories, as the mediaeval church often did, followed by many since, with an angry God and a loving Jesus, with a God who demands blood and doesn’t much mind whose it is as long as it’s innocent. You’d have thought people would notice that this flies in the face of John’s and Paul’s deep-rooted theology of the love of the triune God: not ‘God was so angry with the world that he gave us his son’ but ‘God so loved the world that he gave us his son’. That’s why, when I sing that interesting recent song and we come to the line, ‘And on the cross, as Jesus died, the wrath of God was satisfied’, I believe it’s more deeply true to sing ‘the love of God was satisfied’, and I commend that alteration to those of you who sing that song, which is in other respects one of the very few really solid recent additions to our repertoire. http://ntwrightpage.com/sermons/Word_Cross.htm
    I guess he doesn't like the line in the hymn any more than the PCUSA.
    Dennis E. McFadden, Ex Mainline Baptist (in Remission)
    Atherton Baptist Homes, Alhambra, CA, President/CEO, Retired
    Emmanuel Lutheran Church, LCMS

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    Quote Originally Posted by DMcFadden View Post
    Hmmm. You do know who trains more PCUSA pastors than any of their own ten seminaries, don't you?
    No! Who?
    Jessica
    FCC - Free Church of Scotland (continuing)
    The gal from North Carolina

  13. #13
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    This modern adaptation of one hymn, of course, is not the point.



    Revelation 3

    3 And unto the angel of the church in Sardis write; These things saith he that hath the seven Spirits of God, and the seven stars; I know thy works, that thou hast a name that thou livest, and art dead.

    2 Be watchful, and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die: for I have not found thy works perfect before God.

    3 Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.

    4 Thou hast a few names even in Sardis which have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with me in white: for they are worthy.

    5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

    6 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.
    Scott
    PCA
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  14. #14
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    Proud of the hymn writers for standing firm!
    Will
    First Presbyterian Church - PCA
    Augusta, GA
    For His global glory!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Andres View Post
    This about sums it up...

    Although not all PCUSA churches are theologically liberal, the denomination by and large is. Liberalism and wrath go together like oil and water; they don’t mix. And historically speaking, one of them eventually has to go. When wrath goes, so does the central meaning of the atonement of Christ—penal substitution. At the end of the day, the cross itself is the stumbling block, and that is why the PCUSA cannot abide this hymn.
    "So then, because you are lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will vomit you out of my mouth." -Rev. 3:16
    Bill
    Pitching my tent and building my altar
    (SBC)

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    DMcFadden's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by irresistible_grace View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by DMcFadden View Post
    Hmmm. You do know who trains more PCUSA pastors than any of their own ten seminaries, don't you?
    No! Who?
    A certain 4,500 student school located in Pasadena and founded in 1947 with a PCUSA president who recently took over from the retiring president this summer (also alma mater of John Piper and Rob Bell - M.Div., Kim Riddlebarger - Ph.D., and Rick Warren - D.Min.). I would not think that problems with "In Christ Alone" would come from grads of this school, however.
    Dennis E. McFadden, Ex Mainline Baptist (in Remission)
    Atherton Baptist Homes, Alhambra, CA, President/CEO, Retired
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    Backwoods Presbyterian's Avatar
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    Don't forget James White received an M.A. from that school as well.
    Rev. Benjamin P. Glaser, M. Div, ARP
    Pastor, Ellisville Presbyterian Church, ARP
    Ellisville, Mississippi

    ‎‎"Ministers of the Gospel, when dispensing the truths of God, must preach home to their own souls, as well as unto others. Sir's, we do not deliver truths or doctrines to you, wherein we ourselves have no manner of concern. No, our own souls are at the stake, and shall either perish or be saved eternally, as we receive or reject these precious truths which we deliver unto you. And truly, it can never be expected that we will apply the truths of God with any warmth or liveliness unto others, unless we first make a warm application thereof to our own souls. And if we do not feed upon these doctrines, and practise these duties, which we deliver to and inculcate upon you, though we preach unto others, we ourselves are but castaways." -- Ebenezer Erskine, "The Assurance of Faith", pg. 8

    Deo Vindice
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    As I write this, my son is sitting on the couch with the red Trinity hymnal. Selections in a hymnal can be critically important.

    Growing up, I had a strong background in Lutheran and Presbyterian hymns, so when I was introduced to the older Trinity Hymnal, I was surprised by the number of hymns I didn't know at all. Turns out the forerunner to the PCUSA made a point mid-century to revamp the hymnal to meet modernist sensibilities.
    JWithnell
    Member Bethel OPC
    Virginia
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    Quote Originally Posted by Backwoods Presbyterian View Post
    Don't forget James White received an M.A. from that school as well.
    And my uncle, Ross Arnold!


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    DMcFadden's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KMK View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Backwoods Presbyterian View Post
    Don't forget James White received an M.A. from that school as well.
    And my uncle, Ross Arnold!
    Yeah, yeah, yeah . . . and my wife . . . and me . . . and . . .

    Leith Anderson (D.Min), former president and current president of National Association of Evangelicals.
    Rob Bell (M.Div), author of the acclaimed Velvet Elvis, founding pastor of Mars Hill Bible Church.
    Dr. James Brenneman, (M.Div) President of Goshen College
    Bill Bright (B.D), founder of Campus Crusade for Christ.
    Samuel Chu (M. Div.), Founding executive director of California Faith for Equality, Fellow at Center for Religion and Civic Culture at University of Southern California.
    Craig Detweiler (M.Div., Ph.D.), filmmaker, author, cultural commentator, professor at Pepperdine University
    Richard Krejcir (M.Div., Ph.D.), teaching pastor, Director of Into Thy Word Ministries, Theologian at the Francis Schaeffer Institute of Church Leadership.
    Robert Grant, founder of the Christian Voice organization.
    Wilfred Graves, Jr. (M.Div., Ph.D.), author of In Pursuit of Wholeness: Experiencing God's Salvation for the Total Person.
    Joon Gon Kim, founder of Korea Campus Crusade for Christ.
    Timothy Headington, businessman, film producer, real estate developer.
    Gregory C. Horn, U.S. Navy Rear Admiral.
    Tony Jones (M.Div), national coordinator of "Emergent" a growing, generative friendship of missional Christians and author of many books including "The New Christians."
    John C. Maxwell (D.Min), evangelical Christian author, speaker, and pastor who has written more than 50 books, primarily focusing on leadership.
    John Ortberg, teaching pastor of Menlo Park Presbyterian Church, and author of several books.
    Les Parrott III, Ph.D., professor of clinical psychology for Seattle Pacific University, author, and motivational speaker.
    John Piper (B.D), author, theologian and senior pastor of Bethlehem Baptist Church.
    John D. Robb, Chairman of the International Prayer Council
    Miroslav Volf (M.A), influential theologian and Yale Divinity School professor. Director of the Yale Center for Culture and Faith.
    Rick Warren (D.Min), pastor of Saddleback Church and author of The Purpose Driven Church and the best-selling hardback book in U.S. publishing history, The Purpose Driven Life.
    James White, Director of Alpha and Omega Ministries.
    Anthony C. Yu (S.T.B), religion and literary scholar; translator of Journey to the West. Professor at the University of Chicago.
    Todd H. Speidell (M.Div., Ph.D.), theologian and author
    I still think it stinks that the presbys from Backwoods Presbyterian's old neck of the woods in the mainlines did not like the Christology of the song.
    Dennis E. McFadden, Ex Mainline Baptist (in Remission)
    Atherton Baptist Homes, Alhambra, CA, President/CEO, Retired
    Emmanuel Lutheran Church, LCMS

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    dean iii is offline. Puritanboard Freshman
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    Interesting that so many folks today are ashamed of God because he is angry at sin. Of course that answers the question why so many who profess to believe think nothing of a little sin in their own lives.

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    Jake is offline. Puritanboard Sophomore
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack K View Post
    "In Christ Alone" is one of few songs I can think of that's just a decade or two old but is rich enough in content that the words sound like a surviving hymn from hundreds of years ago.
    And if it does survive for a few hundred years, it could have a chance in a future Trinity Hymnal! After they fix it theologically themselves, that is.

    (Note: I am aware of some more modern selections in the Trinity. And most even somewhat reformed churches I have sang this song in have made a change from "every sin" to "all our sin" or "all my sin")
    Jake
    Member, OPC
    TN

    "...Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man." -Ecc 12:13

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    Rev. Benjamin P. Glaser, M. Div, ARP
    Pastor, Ellisville Presbyterian Church, ARP
    Ellisville, Mississippi

    ‎‎"Ministers of the Gospel, when dispensing the truths of God, must preach home to their own souls, as well as unto others. Sir's, we do not deliver truths or doctrines to you, wherein we ourselves have no manner of concern. No, our own souls are at the stake, and shall either perish or be saved eternally, as we receive or reject these precious truths which we deliver unto you. And truly, it can never be expected that we will apply the truths of God with any warmth or liveliness unto others, unless we first make a warm application thereof to our own souls. And if we do not feed upon these doctrines, and practise these duties, which we deliver to and inculcate upon you, though we preach unto others, we ourselves are but castaways." -- Ebenezer Erskine, "The Assurance of Faith", pg. 8

    Deo Vindice

  24. #24
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    Other views of the atonement are represented as well. These models do not reject the reality of God’s wrath, but they do not see the cross as an expression of it.
    Tim Phillips
    Pastor, Midlane Park Presbyterian Church (ARP)
    Louisville, KY
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marrow Man View Post
    Other views of the atonement are represented as well. These models do not reject the reality of God’s wrath, but they do not see the cross as an expression of it.
    If God is wrathful they just might be in a world of hurt.......so they try and present a fuzzy wuzzy deity?
    Gail

  26. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by calgal View Post
    If God is wrathful they just might be in a world of hurt.......so they try and present a fuzzy wuzzy deity?
    The whole denomination (of which I was once a member) is in a world of hurt. But being in a world of hurt might be a good thing, if it drives them to repentance and the cross.

    Before I was afflicted I went astray,
    But now I keep Your word.
    ...
    It is good for me that I was afflicted,
    That I may learn Your statutes. (Psalm 119:67, 71)
    Tim Phillips
    Pastor, Midlane Park Presbyterian Church (ARP)
    Louisville, KY
    Husband of Scottish Lass
    Father of Grace Cameron Phillips
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    Eoghan's Avatar
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    I originally thought that the reason was unorthodoxy in the hymn (not the church!)
    Eoghan
    attending Wick Baptist Church
    Scotland

    specialist subject: Creationist Genetics (Bottleneck effect of the Ark)
    interests: holiness (practical theology)
    member of Biblical Creation Society (available as a guest speaker in the far north of Scotland)

  28. #28
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    Rabbi Duncan wrote, 'undoubtedly all errors are abused truths, and half a truth is half a lie.'
    Also, it may have been him (sounds like) that wrote, 'wheat and arsenic ,wheat and arsenic,
    it depends on the proportions.'
    Jeff O'Neil,Port Talbot,South Wales.
    Attending Independent Church at
    nearby Neath.

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