Need help from the smart PB Theology folk...

etexas · #1 (**permalink**) 07-06-2008, 11:45 PM

I hope, none of the PB "Wise" feel this question it is too silly, but here goes: The Cross and the Devil? OK, My question is this, the Devil had a role in the Lord Going to the cross ( I know ULTIMATELY Christ laid his life down freely, I am speaking of what some call a "secondary cause") the Devil is not Omniscient but Holy-Writ seems clear he is a past master at being clever, so the question is this, why would the Devil have wanted Christ on the Cross? It was endgame. Why would the evil one have wanted his "fingerprints" on what would be his undoing? Was he blinded? Keep in mind as I type this I am thinking of God's Ultimate Providence in His creation. I simply wonder, even in terms of secondary causes, what did Satan think he could gain from the cross? He seemed to know Jesus was the Son of God incarnate (even his demons knew it). How could he NOT know that the cross would set in motion the very thing that would bring about his greatest defeat? Sorry if this is a silly question. It has been on my mind, and I cannot think of a reference in the commentary sets I have that answer this (does not mean none attempt to explain, I just do not recall any reference to it.) Would love any feedback. Grace and Peace.

JDWiseman · #2 (**permalink**) 07-07-2008, 12:48 AM

Max,

I am neither an elder, nor wise, but here's my take on it, for what it is worth: It seems as if any answer to your question would necessarily verge on being speculation. That being said, the "issue" naturally presents itself to the reader of Scripture. If Satan is destroyed by the cross, and Satan is an intelligent being who was aware of the coming Seed, then why did Satan involve himself in personally bringing it about?

My speculation is that Satan's main strategy throughout the life of Christ was to deflect Him from the cross, whether through the offers of glory in the wilderness, or through the rebukes of Peter. However, once he was aware that Christ had set His face as a flint to obey the will of the Father, and that the cross was going to happen, he undertook, in His malevolence and hatred against the Son of God, to make it as painful as possible, and to bring it about on his own.

As in, "If this is going to happen, then I'm going to make this as bad as possible, and I'm going to make sure that it hurts..."

As I recall, John Piper teaches roughly the same thing. I may have first heard it from him, actually; I can't quite remember. It's been about a year since I listened to this sermon, and I could be mistaken, but I believe it sets forth the same basic idea that I wrote above:

The Suicide of Satan

packabacka · #3 (**permalink**) 07-07-2008, 01:11 AM

Also, I'm not sure if this is of total help, but Satan is the lord of irrationality.

etexas · #4 (**permalink**) 07-07-2008, 02:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JDWiseman

Max,

I am neither an elder, nor wise, but here's my take on it, for what it is worth: It seems as if any answer to your question would necessarily verge on being speculation. That being said, the "issue" naturally presents itself to the reader of Scripture. If Satan is destroyed by the cross, and Satan is an intelligent being who was aware of the coming Seed, then why did Satan involve himself in personally bringing it about?

My speculation is that Satan's main strategy throughout the life of Christ was to deflect Him from the cross, whether through the offers of glory in the wilderness, or through the rebukes of Peter. However, once he was aware that Christ had set His face as a flint to obey the will of the Father, and that the cross was going to happen, he undertook, in His malevolence and hatred against the Son of God, to make it as painful as possible, and to bring it about on his own.

As in, "If this is going to happen, then I'm going to make this as bad as possible, and I'm going to make sure that it hurts..."

As I recall, John Piper teaches roughly the same thing. I may have first heard it from him, actually; I can't quite remember. It's been about a year since I listened to this sermon, and I could be mistaken, but I believe it sets forth the same basic idea that I wrote above:

The Suicide of Satan

Interesting, I like Piper, I should give that a listen. Thank you. Any other thoughts on what seems a self-destructive act for an intelligent being?

Semper Fidelis · #5 (**permalink**) 07-07-2008, 03:03 AM

I've been told that I crack wise very often.

I'm not so sure Satan understood what Christ had come to do precisely. The Jews certainly didn't completely understand the role that Christ would play as the suffering Servant. Even his own Apostles doubted it.

Also, there is something very blinding about hatred and wickedness that causes the wicked to destroy themselves. I don't agree that Satan is completely irrational. It takes some faculties to deceive and to pose as the Truth.

Yet, there is an incapacity on the part of the wicked to submit to God's Word. I've been fascinated in reading the Acts as, in encounter after encounter after encounter, there is a theme that the unbelieving Sanhedrin, High Priests, Synagogue of the Freedmen, Synagogue at Damascus, etc are confronted with the Truth of the Word concerning Christ and they are unable to withstand the Scriptural arguments. They can give no answer.

I'm reading these stories and thinking to myself that they're signing their own death warrant but they do so boldly. They know Peter healed a lame man in Christ's name. They knowStephen is right about the Christ and their rebellion. They know they cannot withstand Saul's testimony of the risen Christ.

Solution? Repent? Well you do if you have your eyes opened as in Acts 2 & 3 but, for others, the solution is to kill the man who you cannot withstand. I think they are like their father the devil in that he desires to destroy the Truth and that urge and rage is so intense that it overcomes all other faculties.

I noted this before to the people at my Church that I have noticed that, when you cross a certain line with people, they will turn on you and try to destroy you. I've had sweet old lady who I demonstrated from the Scriptures that the SBC requirement that all members must abstain from alcohol as well as working at establishments that sell it binds the conscience in a way that the Scriptures have left men free. It wasn't that I didn't demonstrate that point from Galatians when I was teaching through it but that it ruffled some old Baptist feathers that had convinced her for years that this is part of holy living. Trying to get that type of person to mature in the understanding of the things of the Gospel after that was nearly impossible. A spiritual "folding of the arms" developed thereafter and two years later she brought up that conversation that I had nearly forgotten and venom poured out of her as her hatred for everything I stood for came out.

Now, I'm not saying I'm Christ and I'm not saying I'm not obnoxious but I'm not that obnoxious. It's the effect, though, when you have a ready answer from the Scriptures and others have a ready answer from what their heart has been fed for a lifetime that conflicts with the Sciptures and, unfortunately, what has filled the hearts of many Christians over the years is the bile of self-justification as most Evangelicalism is a form of Pelagianism today.

I'm convinced that Paul, in his apostolic ministry to the many synagogues was dealing with people who had practiced holy livin' passed down from their folks over generations. It is the perfect kind of false Gospel to immunize such men and women even against the Word of God, which they'll hate and try to destroy if any light is shined upon them that would tell them that they have to admit that they're really wicked.

panta dokimazete · #6 (**permalink**) 07-07-2008, 08:04 AM

My 2 cents, bank it for what its worth

:

Satan, from the very first time we see him, is about doing the opposite of what he was created for - glorifying God and enjoying him forever. This is his "blind obsession". This is the reason he fell and the purpose he plays. He is self-love personified and he is obsessed with turning others to his worldview, to rob God of His rightful glory. Hate the true God, worship the creature rather than the Creator, love yourself...survival of the fittest...

Praise God, that "all things work out for good for those that love the Lord and are called according to His purpose" and that God's plan ultimately integrates even "the enemy's" misguided actions to His ultimate glory.

JonathanHunt · #7 (**permalink**) 07-07-2008, 09:04 AM

I'd agree with most of what has been said here - Satan is clever, but he doesn't know everything. I do believe that CS Lewis does have it right in his 'The Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe'. The White Witch is absolutely delighted to take Aslan's life in the most degrading and wicked way, and she really believes that she has triumphed, she and her followers.

She seems to have 'forgotten' what Aslan calls 'the old magic' (not sure if I have the phrase right). She surely should have known these things, but unaccountably seems to have overlooked them.

Satan, I believe, is the ultimate sinner - as such he is so blinded and irrational, that with the prospect of the cross before him he could do nothing but urge the people on to greater wickedness and to do his very worst to bring agony upon the Saviour. If I might venture further Satan lives for the moment (because the here and now is all he has) - and for him there was no greater moment in time than the agony of Calvary. Shortly followed, of course, by the realisation of his absolute defeat. He's still in denial today and doing his very worst to cause misery with the time he has left. Praise God that his leash is being pulled shorter and shorter, and before long he shall be cast into the lake of fire!

etexas · #8 (**permalink**) 07-07-2008, 09:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by panta dokimazete

My 2 cents, bank it for what its worth

:

Satan, from the very first time we see him, is about doing the opposite of what he was created for - glorifying God and enjoying him forever. This is his "blind obsession". This is the reason he fell and the purpose he plays. He is self-love personified and he is obsessed with turning others to his worldview, to rob God of His rightful glory. Hate the true God, worship the creature rather than the Creator, love yourself...survival of the fittest...

Praise God, that "all things work out for good for those that love the Lord and are called according to His purpose" and that God's plan ultimately integrates even "the enemy's" misguided actions to His ultimate glory.

VERY, good points Brother, it brings us full circle however, Satan is indeed obsessed with himself, but this almost brings us to why the Devil did not try to stop the Cross "mission" that Christ had set himself to. We do not know if Satan knew the full purpose of Christ BUT, what do we know?: Satan (as Lucifer) before his fall seems to have been an Angel of some rank, indeed one who was before the very throne of God, perhaps he had some limited grasp of the Second Person of the Godhead, (when Satan saw He was walking the Earth in a body of flesh, you have to know the Devil was rather sure Messiah was not just trying to "see how the other half lived", Satan had a better grasp early on of who Christ was (the Apostles did not quite "get it" prior to His escape from the grave, and the Holy Spirit and the Holy Spirit falling on them they missed most of His I AM references as well as some other statements of His Deity the Devil, did not need such comments he KNEW who Jesus was) there is the kernel of the question I guess: The Devil KNEW the Lord had not become incarnate for a "waking tour" he MUST have suspected something.....

Puritan Sailor · #9 (**permalink**) 07-07-2008, 09:46 AM

It is entirely possible that Satan had the same view of the coming Messiah as the unbelieving Jews did, that a coming warrior would arise from David's line who would physically overtake the world, and institute a global Isrealite nation. Even the disciples did not understand the mission of the Messiah after walking with him for 3 years. Remember, Satan probably only had as much revelation as the rest of the church in that day. And even that revelation required the later clarification by Jesus and the illumination of the Spirit. The angels longed to look into the mystery of the gospel, and I'm sure Satan was just as puzzled as even the holy angels if not more so. So the cross (from Satan's perspective) may very well have been Satan's attempt to destroy what he thinks is a coming world ruler who would defeat all Satan's physical kingdoms by force and God left Satan in that blindness for His own good purposes. This is entirely speculative of course and I'm open to any correction.

etexas · #10 (**permalink**) 07-07-2008, 09:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Puritan Sailor

It is entirely possible that Satan had the same view of the coming Messiah as the unbelieving Jews did, that a coming warrior would arise from David's line who would physically overtake the world, and institute a global Isrealite nation. Even the disciples did not understand the mission of the Messiah after walking with him for 3 years. Remember, Satan probably only had as much revelation as the rest of the church in that day. And even that revelation required the later clarification by Jesus and the illumination of the Spirit. The angels longed to look into the mystery of the gospel, and I'm sure Satan was just as puzzled as even the holy angels if not more so. So the cross (from Satan's perspective) may very well have been Satan's attempt to destroy what he thinks is a coming world ruler who would defeat all Satan's physical kingdoms by force and God left Satan in that blindness for His own good purposes. This is entirely speculative of course and I'm open to any correction.

Very good points Patrick. In a general way I agree, I still hold to an idea that Satan was more clever than the Jewish leaders though.

Puritan Sailor · #11 (**permalink**) 07-07-2008, 09:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by etexas

Quote:

Originally Posted by Puritan Sailor

It is entirely possible that Satan had the same view of the coming Messiah as the unbelieving Jews did, that a coming warrior would arise from David's line who would physically overtake the world, and institute a global Isrealite nation. Even the disciples did not understand the mission of the Messiah after walking with him for 3 years. Remember, Satan probably only had as much revelation as the rest of the church in that day. And even that revelation required the later clarification by Jesus and the illumination of the Spirit. The angels longed to look into the mystery of the gospel, and I'm sure Satan was just as puzzled as even the holy angels if not more so. So the cross (from Satan's perspective) may very well have been Satan's attempt to destroy what he thinks is a coming world ruler who would defeat all Satan's physical kingdoms by force and God left Satan in that blindness for His own good purposes. This is entirely speculative of course and I'm open to any correction.

Very good points Patrick. In a general way I agree, I still hold to an idea that Satan was more clever than the Jewish leaders though.

Oh sure, more clever and more powerful. But probably not more enlightened.

panta dokimazete · #12 (**permalink**) 07-07-2008, 12:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Puritan Sailor

It is entirely possible that Satan had the same view of the coming Messiah as the unbelieving Jews did, that a coming warrior would arise from David's line who would physically overtake the world, and institute a global Isrealite nation. Even the disciples did not understand the mission of the Messiah after walking with him for 3 years. Remember, Satan probably only had as much revelation as the rest of the church in that day. And even that revelation required the later clarification by Jesus and the illumination of the Spirit. The angels longed to look into the mystery of the gospel, and I'm sure Satan was just as puzzled as even the holy angels if not more so. So the cross (from Satan's perspective) may very well have been Satan's attempt to destroy what he thinks is a coming world ruler who would defeat all Satan's physical kingdoms by force and God left Satan in that blindness for His own good purposes. This is entirely speculative of course and I'm open to any correction.

I agree with this - and will continue to speculate - why would Satan have any greater insight as it pertains to the eternal covenant plan than did anyone else? He had Moses and the Prophets, too, you know, as well as "familiarity" with the Trinity (or maybe he didn't, maybe he was only given access to the Father as his ruler and judge).

Look at his temptation of Christ - it certainly seems like he is interacting with the "strawman" of messianic expectations as opposed to a fully realized understanding of whom he is truly dealing with...again, blind obsession.

Satan believes in chance.

panta dokimazete · #13 (**permalink**) 07-07-2008, 01:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by etexas

Quote:

Originally Posted by panta dokimazete

My 2 cents, bank it for what its worth

:

Satan, from the very first time we see him, is about doing the opposite of what he was created for - glorifying God and enjoying him forever. This is his "blind obsession". This is the reason he fell and the purpose he plays. He is self-love personified and he is obsessed with turning others to his worldview, to rob God of His rightful glory. Hate the true God, worship the creature rather than the Creator, love yourself...survival of the fittest...

Praise God, that "all things work out for good for those that love the Lord and are called according to His purpose" and that God's plan ultimately integrates even "the enemy's" misguided actions to His ultimate glory.

VERY, good points Brother, it brings us full circle however, Satan is indeed obsessed with himself, but this almost brings us to why the Devil did not try to stop the Cross "mission" that Christ had set himself to. We do not know if Satan knew the full purpose of Christ BUT, what do we know?: Satan (as Lucifer) before his fall seems to have been an Angel of some rank, indeed one who was before the very throne of God, perhaps he had some limited grasp of the Second Person of the Godhead, (when Satan saw He was walking the Earth in a body of flesh, you have to know the Devil was rather sure Messiah was not just trying to "see how the other half lived", Satan had a better grasp early on of who Christ was (the Apostles did not quite "get it" prior to His escape from the grave, and the Holy Spirit and the Holy Spirit falling on them they missed most of His I AM references as well as some other statements of His Deity the Devil, did not need such comments he KNEW who Jesus was) there is the kernel of the question I guess: The Devil KNEW the Lord had not become incarnate for a "waking tour" he MUST have suspected something.....

see above

Brad · #14 (**permalink**) 07-07-2008, 07:49 PM

Trying to determine the motivations behind the actions of an illogical and incoherent being seems, well, illogical and incoherent. Satan is a liar and the father of lies and as such uses subltlety and guile to pursue his aims, which indicates obvious calculation and use of some type of reason, but is ultimately founded on the delusional premise that he can thwart the will of God. We see the same in very intelligent people who reject the truths of God. If He will send strong delusion to men that they will believe a lie, I don't see why He wouldn't do so for the enemy of His peoples' souls.

Trying to figure out the plethora of delusions common to men is pointless enough. Attempting to do so with Satan would be no less futile. He's just wicked, and so does what the wicked will do.

etexas · #15 (**permalink**) 07-07-2008, 08:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brad

Trying to determine the motivations behind the actions of an illogical and incoherent being seems, well, illogical and incoherent. Satan is a liar and the father of lies and as such uses subltlety and guile to pursue his aims, which indicates obvious calculation and use of some type of reason, but is ultimately founded on the delusional premise that he can thwart the will of God. We see the same in very intelligent people who reject the truths of God. If He will send strong delusion to men that they will believe a lie, I don't see why He wouldn't do so for the enemy of His peoples' souls.

Trying to figure out the plethora of delusions common to men is pointless enough. Attempting to do so with Satan would be no less futile. He's just wicked, and so does what the wicked will do.

I only agree to a point ,Satan is many things, but stupid, or incoherent or even illogical? No. This is what has always made the Enemy of God and Redeemed men so very dangerous, if only he were stupid. I think perhaps there is method to his madness even.

THAT SAID, there has been GREAT feedback on this thread, I think even on my part we might be in danger of "vain speculation". So sparing any objections I will find a kindly Mod, and request closure to the thread. Grace and Peace.

packabacka · #16 (**permalink**) 07-07-2008, 08:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by etexas

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brad

Trying to determine the motivations behind the actions of an illogical and incoherent being seems, well, illogical and incoherent. Satan is a liar and the father of lies and as such uses subltlety and guile to pursue his aims, which indicates obvious calculation and use of some type of reason, but is ultimately founded on the delusional premise that he can thwart the will of God. We see the same in very intelligent people who reject the truths of God. If He will send strong delusion to men that they will believe a lie, I don't see why He wouldn't do so for the enemy of His peoples' souls.

Trying to figure out the plethora of delusions common to men is pointless enough. Attempting to do so with Satan would be no less futile. He's just wicked, and so does what the wicked will do.

I only agree to a point ,Satan is many things, but stupid, or incoherent or even illogical? No. This is what has always made the Enemy of God and Redeemed men so very dangerous, if only he were stupid. I think perhaps there is method to his madness even.

THAT SAID, there has been GREAT feedback on this thread, I think even on my part we might be in danger of "vain speculation". So sparing any objections I will find a kindly Mod, and request closure to the thread. Grace and Peace.

Van Til has said this in regards to the unbelieving intellect, and I'll paraphrase to the best of my memory: Natural men, due to total depravity, are not dumber or less intellectual than Christians, but it is rather an orientation of their intellect. (I think this applies well to Satan, although he was not directly affected by the Fall.) Satan is certainly very intelligent, but it is steered in such a wrong way that he is supremely irrational.

DMcFadden · #17 (**permalink**) 07-07-2008, 09:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by etexas

THAT SAID, there has been GREAT feedback on this thread, I think even on my part we might be in danger of "vain speculation". So sparing any objections I will find a kindly Mod, and request closure to the thread. Grace and Peace.

As you wish.